Bravo oxygen

[wolftimj]

Just sold my baby, 1982 M20J, and bought a 1997 Bravo. Going to pick it up Friday. I want to bring some new cannulas with me since I am unsure of the condition of what is in the plane, and the level of booger encrustation on the nose pieces. Eeesh. What I can't find is definitive info about exactly what I need to use the factory installed Scott system. I have new medical cannulas. Can I use those somehow? I just want to be 100% sure I have two that work so we can get back from the other side of the Rockies without having to worry about it. Plan on buying the Mountain High O2D2 system when I get back, this is just for the flight home after the delivery inspection. Already have a pulse oximeter too. Thanks.

[Parker_Woodruff]

How high are you flying?  Make sure and use O2 masks FL180 and above.

Congrats on the Bravo.

[jlunseth]

Precise Flight has all the stuff you will need or want.  http://preciseflight.com/

I would not invest in the "mustache" cannulas though.  I have four of them, and none of them provide the O2 savings that precise flight claims.  I would just go with the regular cannula.  The most useful component of the Precise Flight system IMHO is the valve, it allows you to see that you have O2 coming through the system, and allows you to meter the amount with altitude.

[thinwing]

wolf...i used aviation oxygen . com...your Bravo should have come with at least a couple cannulas..i alcohol them off using qtips...if that grosses you out...you will need oxymizers with the scott plug...the new glowmizers are cool and easy too adjust...unlike jlunseth...I do recomend the mustache cannulas..that is where the reservoir is located and a straight medical o2 oximizer is NOT calibrated to any flow meter presently availble...Also beware using the mountain high pulse demand system,,....remember the scott/aveox regulator system is altitude compensating all by itself....(installed in the brave)The oxymizer cannulas work well to provide over 90%saturation up to 18000 ft than its masktime...one with a mike will set you back 400 bucks!!Scott makes cheaper ones and its no big deal to slip mask off for atc transmissions...cograts on the Bravo...sinc kp couch

[jlunseth]

The Precise Flight flowmeter does have a Normal scale for standard cannulas.  It also has an Oxymizer scale for the mustache type.

http://preciseflight.com/general-aviation/shop/product/a-5-flow-meter-tubing/

However, after at least a hundred hours of use, neither I nor passengers have found the OXY side of the scale to work with the mustache cannula.  Need to use the STD side.  Better yet, use a pulse oximeter, they are inexpensive and good insurance.  O2 should be 92-93% or higher.

[thinwing]

jlunseth....Did you notice the std side calibration goes up to 25 k...I think that is the mask side setting...the left side calibration is the cannula side.I agree using that setting will certainly "force " O2 at a higher flow rate...but I think you are wasting Oxygen....you probably notice a constant flow into your nostrils ..right???sinc kp couch

[jlunseth]

The instructions say that is the standard cannula side.  Actually, the flow is better (less needed) with my mic'd mask.  Yes, with the Oximizer we do need to have a little extra flow, the sensation of O2 blowing into your nostrils.

We have tried the Oxymizer on the OXY side of the flowmeter (actually all four of the one's I have, the result is the same).  Both the pulse oximeter, and personal sensation tell us the OXY side is too low.  The cure is to go over to the STD side. 

Have had some hyperbaric training for technical diving.  My personal sensation feels like anxiety but it is not - an increase in breathing frequency trying to get more O2.  I get that feeling trying to use the OXY scale.  I also notice that my speech becomes hesitant.  And the oximeter confirms.  Passengers using the Oxymizers have the same experience, and low (90 or lower) levels on the pulse oximeter, when they have tried the OXY scale.

Mind, you are not in danger of passing out at 90%, but you are mildly hypoxic.  Normal needs to be 92-93% or better. 

[jasonwojo]

Speaking of O2 cannulas, does anyone have extras they want to sell?  I would like to find a couple more, to include the connectors that attach to the aircraft.  Any help is appreciated...

[thinwing]

So jlundreth...if you have turn up the flow rate that high on the cannulas(doesnt matter if its reservoir type or not)to get your saturation up past 90...how long does your 104 cubic bottle last???Do you or your passengers have allergies..have you read the studies of shallow breathing syndrome??I think it was published by mountain high people.Any way that is why we use the pulse oxymeters....many people cannot get adequate saturation by nose breathing only..even on the ground at sea level....interesting post ..thanks alot..kp couch

[wolftimj]

Thanks for the replies. I think some info might help after reading them...

I am a 15 year Criticial Care Paramedic so this come from lots of training and experience;

Nose breathing is not required with nasal cannulas of any design. The cannula fills the oropharynx and nasopharynx with oxygen which is then drawn into the lungs when a breath is taken through the nose or mouth. Unless you have very congested sinus cavities, nose breathing will not improve your oxygen saturation over normal breathing.

People with moderate to severe Chronic Obstructed Pulmonary Disease (COPD) probably would be better off in a pressurized cabin than using one of these systems. The lack of humidity combined with the decrease in CO2 by volume in inspired air could cause discomfort or worse. The explanation of this is easily Googled, just an FYI.

Pulse oximetry is a good tool, do not become too reliant on it though. A normal pulse oximetry reading on a person displaying confusion, headache, lethargy, etc. should be considered hypoxia and the flow of oxygen increased and/or cabin altitude decreased. Here's another little tidbit to make you nervous... studies have found that pulse oximetry has been shown to display elevated saturation levels in the presence of elevated carbon monoxide. Nice huh?

Smokers usually have an elevated level of carbon monoxide. That along with the condition of their lungs and a little altitude will increase their need for oxygen, and an otherwise normal to low-normal pulse oximetry reading might not be good enough for them to maintain normal mentation.

Ok, too much info probably. Most important point; everyone is different. Some need lots of supplemental oxygen at sea level to maintain, some can go up to the high teens without any and they're fine (not legally in our case). Use an oximeter as a tool, but look and talk to the person it's attached to to determine if they need more oxygen than they are getting. In our business the saying is, "Treat the patient, not the monitor." Speach over. Go flying and have some fun.

Thanks again for the replies.

Tim Wolf, CCEMT-P

President, Rockwall County Emergency Medical Services

[Robg]

Be careful using the Mountain High 02D2 downstream of the installed O2 system in the Bravo.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20090731X10108&ntsbno=ERA09FA429&akey=1

[thinwing]

Wolf...your statement that mouth breathing while wearing a nasal canula is as effective as nasal breathing is not accurate ..the two systems work on different premises.From your emt training ..you place a nasal cannula on your patient and than adjust flow rate (probably 7 liters flow rate)Or more probably you use a mask..either way at the flow rates being delivered your patient is getting adequate oxygenization no matter how they breath...not so with an aircraft system...it is calibrated to conserve o2 use and only enriches ambient air.If you place your cannula and start your flow say at 15k and than proceed to mouth breath...you will see your %oxygenation decrease very rapidly.When you pickup up your Bravo...try it...and report back...The instructions are quite clear for nasal cannula use vs mask use...cannula use is approved to 18k but requires a clear nasal airway...no allergies or head cold..if that is the case than its mouth breathing using a mask...sinc kelly p couch...ps..regarding carbon monoxide...we use a detector in our Bravo and experience elevated CO levels on takeoff while cowl flaps are deployed.The device we are using is a keyfob style detector that reads very low to zero CO while held directly in the exaust stream of a chev pickup with catalylser.100 ppm is not unusual during takeoff that reduces to 10 or 15 ppm in cruise with cowlflaps/gear doors etc closed...kpc

[wolftimj]

As I said, without sinus blockage mouth breathing with a nasal cannula is as effective as nasal breathing. I guess the only exception to this would be inhalation through the mouth then exhalation through the nose. I don't know what you experienced, but the laws of physics don't change in an aircraft. Take it or leave it, but it is well documented and current medical knowledge.

If you have sinus problems, wear a mask. Easy enough.

[thinwing]

Tim ..from your first post inquiring about what is needed to convert your medical use cannulas to aircraft use..it is pretty obvious from your question that you are really not familar with the scott system.The reason i am pursuing this dialog is that because the power of the internet,when someone makes a definative statement citing an absolute("Makes no difference ")it really sounds my alarm bells...especially coming from someone who i think hasnt a lot of experience with high altitude flight.My reaction was ..someone coming along will treat this statement as gospel as you obviously believe...About 20 years ago in preparation for a glider altitude record ,I did a lot research on O2 use ,and had a chance to spend a lot of time with Jerry Nelson (He sold his oxymizer /aircraft business years ago).Jerry was probably the first to adapt a medical device (The 02 saving oxymizer cannula)to aircraft use.He had a lot of help...the (flawed)1982 NCBI study using 6 individuals in an altitude chamber and at a flow rate of 2.5liter -1 min they proved adequate oxygenation of all subjects up to 18000 regardless of inspiration route.Other studies using resting patients ,again at 2.5 liter - min showed the same thing generally...no difference.No doubt this is where you carry your professional knowledge to a dangerous assumption.The constant flow regulator in your new Bravo will deliver 2.5 liter per min (assuming its in good working order ..1997 who knows??)but when Jerry Nelson worked out the metering and calibration with a PHD/MD anesth./pilot/ame consultant help (the flow rate #s on the 0xymizer tubes he found adequate oxygenation was achieved at a .6liter level,and all subsequent Nelson oxymizer/flowrate tubes/metering valves are guranteed to provide .7liters/min.Adequate oxygenation was found to occur under flight testing employing nose breathing only not either/or as done in previous studies using the old increased flow rate.He also found using pulse oxymetry that individuals under stress like pilots flying in difficult IFR required more,and he printed recomendations .Mountain air with there pulse system prints a warning..DO NOT MOUTH BREATH in large red print in there operating instructions.I have been trying to locate my copy of the shallow breathing article the mountain high folks use...when i do I will PM you and send as well as the warning statements I have uncovered.My final recomendation is if you plan to employ medical cannulas ,and plan to mouth breath,than I would plug them directly into the outlet with out the secondary metering valve at the 2.5 liter rate...hope no offense is taken and no spears at your EMT /scuba Nitrox training is intended...I just think you are making the wrong assumption...ok???..ps..congrats on the new Bravo..sinc kp couch

[wolftimj]

Thanks thinwing, although you've combined posts from myself and someone else talking about scuba and Nitrox training, that wasn't me. I was just giving sound information to use in conjunction with common sense. Nothing in medicine or in life is absolute, that's why we practice...  this has gotten completely off subject and many assumptions that I never typed have been interjected. And yes, mouth breathing is obviously not compatible with the pulse demand systems since the negative pressure in the nasopharynx is what triggers it, I guess that point was not expressed by myself, assuming that was obvious. Never assume...

Simple question. I have a new Bravo. I do not have ANY oxygen equipment other than what is installed in the aircraft. I do have access to medical nasal cannulas. I am going to pick up the plane in two days. IF I wanted to use the cannulas I have instead of what may or may not be there, can I, and how can I?

After I get it back... it appears there is some concern about the use of the O2D2 in the Bravo...? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

[thinwing]

Tim...hopefully when you pickup bravo there will be at least 2 masks/cannulas..etc....the adaptor you need is the scott bayonet type o2 plug...about 3 in long with 2 prongs on either side...usually you can slip off old cannulas and cut off the funnel shaped adaptor on your medical type...then the tubing will fit onto the barbs of the little regulator valve....insert scott plug into 1 of the 4 recepticals and to start flow turn knob clockwise 90 degrees...I adjust flow (starting about 5000 ft)so ball is on top of altitude line I amgoing to and I usually leave it there....If all that is in the airplane is a Mask..(scott type)you can seperate the vinyl hose from the regulator valve if installed....re the accident posted...I read thru this and believe it occoured by piggy backing the pulse demand system up stream of a oxymiser adj flow rate valve..the mountain high system wants to see a 2.5 liter/60psi at the source to be certified...good luck on your new bird and remember long bodies land a little differently...kp couch

[RJBrown]

 I use the moustache style at the recommended settings with no problems at all. Oxygen is an area where YOUR physiology is all that matters. Use an oximeter to learn about your body. Jlunseth lives at low altitude, I live at 5880 that may be part of the difference. Some people show hypoxic symptoms at altitudes I regularly visit. I have ridden a bicycle over 12000' mountain passes with no hypoxic effect. How YOU react is all that matters. The moustache (mountain high or aerox) and pendant (aerox) styles are better than the plain medical cannula. They allow a lower flow rate to do the same job. You must breath through the nose only for the cannula to be effective. 18000' is a FAA requirement. You may do just fine with a cannula at higher altitudes.

When it comes to the effects of hypoxia this story is interesting. The conditions that killed the pilot only put his assistant to sleep. http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=38638

[aviatoreb]

Quote: RJBrown

 I use the moustache style at the recommended settings with no problems at all. Oxygen is an area where YOUR physiology is all that matters. Use an oximeter to learn about your body. Jlunseth lives at low altitude, I live at 5880 that may be part of the difference. Some people show hypoxic symptoms at altitudes I regularly visit. I have ridden a bicycle over 12000' mountain passes with no hypoxic effect. How YOU react is all that matters. The moustache (mountain high or aerox) and pendant (aerox) styles are better than the plain medical cannula. They allow a lower flow rate to do the same job. You must breath through the nose only for the cannula to be effective. 18000' is a FAA requirement. You may do just fine with a cannula at higher altitudes.

When it comes to the effects of hypoxia this story is interesting. The conditions that killed the pilot only put his assistant to sleep. http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=38638

[carqwik]

The Oxymizer (or is it Oxysaver?) cannulas definitely save on O2 usage...my guess is about 50% savings.  You can adjust the O2 flow rate to your altitude (less down low) and save even more.