skydvrboy Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 So is there some requirement to be a Mooney Specific Instructor or is it just an instructor who has a significant amount of time in a Mooney? My instructor certainly wouldn't call himself a Mooney Instructor, but he owned and flew a '67 F, same year, make, and model that I was transitioning into, so I thought that would be sufficient. Also, this instructor list from the Mooney Flyer, is it vetted in any way? At the top it says "If You Are A Mooney CFI/CFII, And Would Like To Be Include In This List, Please Send An Email..." Can any instructor straight out of school say "Yep, I have a CFI and a retract endorsement... I can teach people to fly in a Mooney!" and be added to the list? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradp Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 Most people in the flyer have some quals listed in terms of MM experience or hours in type. Most of us on here know of CFIs by word of mouth as well. There are a number of CFIs on here that have contributed a metric ton of knowledge and that counts too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 48 minutes ago, 201Steve said: Good to know, thanks for the link. While I don't disagree, it's still only theory. I've been trying to find "accident rates by aircraft type" but all I can find is stats for commercial models. Recently, Somebody started a thread about searching through all the FAA accident reports... he wrote some ‘program’ to enable the search function... It made it incredibly easy to search through all the Ovation accident reports... there aren’t that many. It’s true Mooney pilots are good, and Ovation pilots are the cream... (OK, I may have stretched the truth with this one) It turns out there aren’t that many Ovations to have accidents with. See if you can find that thread using the search function... necessary reading for everyone that flys. Learn how not To repeat the errors... you can also look up how many accidents the Cirrus had from oil cooler leaks... a shared engine/heat exchanger set-up in both airframes... There is plenty of perceived negativity shared around here... the key word is perceived... it takes an artist to be able to write in a positive manner all the time. Some people don’t know how negative their writing is. Even then... pointing out their writing style isn’t going to help a whole lot... Flying is pretty dangerous... by nature... ignoring that fact won’t make it safer. Some great experience can’t be used by the next guy... money, schedule, time of the day... all kinds of reasons... Some lower cost, legal, methods have been used by some... that is good too... It helps to identify what is best for you... we are not all going to be alike... Best regards, -a- 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 As far as verifying a Mooney specific instructor goes... Find the list on the Mooney flyer... full of all the contact info and basic details... Figure out what type of training you want to accomplish... Dial away... or send an email... is it an interview when you are trying to determine if this instructor is right for you and the plane? Surely, anyone can say they are a Mooney instructor... Your insurance company will be asking for these details... so the Mooney CFIIs are ready to hand them over... Like any other training experience... you may have a great instructor, but he doesn’t match from a personality kind of thing... go to the next one on the list... ask MSers Which one worked for them, why... My first Mooney Specific CFII was arranged by David and Jimmy... Bob Cabe... Transition Training was spectacular... deep, detailed, and to the point... the only thing that was slow was the uptake rate of the trainee... there is only so much training I can adsorb in a day... My favorite instructor, Cris, flew a Screamin’ Eagle... I helped him with some tech details regarding fuel capacity for his bird, MS conversations in 2011... a few months later I was in need of instruction... he was nearby so it made great sense to have him help me out for a few flights... When Cris was unable to fly... he recommended the next CFII, John, Cris thought John would make a good match... they traded notes about me... and John and I were off doing something similar to Transition Training and engine Break-in flights... nobody knows engine ops better than an M20K CFII... In the end... don’t be afraid to ask... don’t be afraid to tell what you are looking for... don’t be afraid to describe your experience... MS wants you to be successful... There is probably a cost for all of this advice... and it isn’t measured in AMUs... Some give experience... how FARs work, how an engine system works, how a plane sub-system works... Some people will upload some important docs... others will give you a lift when you are stuck at their home drome... There is always an MSer awake and online... Everybody has something good to offer. You may not even know what you have to offer... Another piece of interesting advice... look up MAPA... they have organized training... spend a glorious weekend with the MAPA people... meet some instructors there... amazingly they are Mooney specific...and some other interesting planes too... you will also meet some Mooney pilots like yourself... When the perceived negativity fades away... the next comment will be MS is a bunch of Mooney fan boys... which isn’t completely true... we have a few women here as well... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueOne Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 I know where a beautiful unloved missile is lying dormant in a hanger just waiting to be loved...I wish I had the means...sigh. Buy her and fly her. LIVE your dream! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mufflerbearing Posted July 9, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 16 hours ago, donkaye said: I do think a specific airplane model instructor is important for initial and transition training. Each type of airplane has its own special knowledge requirements. You don't go to a general practitioner to get a heart transplant. You want the best in the field, who has specialized in the area in which you need assistance. The same holds true for flying. The Mooney is different from the Cessna and Piper and other single engine aircraft. With its laminar flow wing, low to the ground landing gear and shock disks , even a 1 knot difference in approach speed makes a difference both in landing distance and potential outcome from a higher than normal touchdown rate (aka bounced landing). An aircraft specific instructor who has "experienced it all" with various students, can make a big difference in guidance and rate of learning. I talked with Mark, the plane's broker, and had a great conversation. I have learned about this specific Eagle that I had been looking at. Yes, it has quite the sorted history, but it was repaired by a Mooney Service Center but of course, it will certainly need to be checked out again by 3rd party. Mark also mentioned Don Kaye and advised me to hire Don and my instructor together so what I don't pick up, my instructor may pick up on for later training. Mark also mentioned that good tail wheel training will be a big help in landing the Mooney. First things first. Is this really the plane I want and if it is not, then it's a matter of finding another one that may fit the bill. Of course, this will take some time, but this suggestion (which was also made by many here) is a really good one. I talked to my dear wife last night about this and pointed out the option of buying a simple C150 or C172 to finish my license and build some time/experience before getting a Mooney. She said that after looking at the cruise speed and such, I would become quickly bored and impatient with a more anemic plane. She knows me so well. Her vote is to get the plane I want and get the proper instruction. Yes, 30 years ago, I found a good one and she is awesome. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 Apocryphal story time. When I first got he Lucky Strike, I was in southern Georgia and knew not a soul. I had a line on an instructor in Atlanta, but I had a day to kill until he was available. The mechanic who did the pre buy on the thing was also a CFI, i asked him if he was comfortable in Mooneys. He said yes, so I hired him for a bit of flight time to start my transition. First takeoff, I couldn't properly seat the Johnson bar. Could swing it just fine, just couldn't get the gear locked up. He tried to do it, we're both trying to look the gear when I heard an old CFI's voice in my head, fly the airplane. I get my head up, see we're slow, get the nose down and start flying. We didn't solve the gear issues in that flight and just died a few stop and goes. Kind of a miserable experience. Get someone who really knows Mooneys. You'll be a lot happier in the end. They aren't that special, but more than some other aircraft they'll bite if mistreated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AeroSax Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 For what it's worth, another CFI and I worked with a gentleman almost from start to finish on his PPL in his Mooney Acclaim. Yes it took awhile longer than if he'd done it in a rental C172 or some such, but he knew that up front and, like the OP here, it was the airplane he wanted and could afford. He did great with it! If you determine that this (or any other Mooney) is the airplane you want, go for it, you won't be sorry. Also, I only know Don Kaye by reputation but its a wonderful reputation!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 Jay, you need to increase your number of posts... One per year just isn’t enough. Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 Just now, carusoam said: Jay, you need to increase your number of posts... One per year just isn’t enough. Best regards, -a- That's like the pot calling the kettle black! No wait a minute, I think I have that backwards... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 New MS rules... Minimum Post Requirement (MPR)... Don’t fall behind. -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skates97 Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 15 hours ago, Hank said: For fun, take a Piper pilot for a ride in your Mooney, and watch his face when you pull your throttle to idle on short final . This works even better if you are still over trees . . . . . After learning in Cherokees and then only flying my Mooney for a couple hundred hours I rented a Cessna (never even sat in one before) and my wife and I flew around Maui/Moloka'i with a CFII. On short final I pulled the throttle... he pushed it back in. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted July 9, 2019 Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 7 minutes ago, Skates97 said: After learning in Cherokees and then only flying my Mooney for a couple hundred hours I rented a Cessna (never even sat in one before) and my wife and I flew around Maui/Moloka'i with a CFII. On short final I pulled the throttle... he pushed it back in. Similar experience with a 182 when I was getting my HP endorsement. Pulled the power a little early and was thinking this thing drops like a rock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mufflerbearing Posted July 9, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2019 One of the two planes that are available at the school is a Champ from 194x. It has no flaps because it just can't handle any parasitic drag. I felt like I had to hop up and down in my seat to get the wings to flap for added help off the ground. I's sure it has a HP rating, at least I think it does. You know when you mow the lawn and there is a turtle and a rabbit for throttle position? Well, this Champ has a snail and a turtle. Do you want to fly slow or just less slow? It was warm last week and this little plane just couldn't get to pattern altitude before it was time to pull throttle (just a touch), and quickly turn base. It was a really good plane to feel everything. It can be a bit squirrley being so short and a tail wheel. It was fun though. I couldn't get the grin off my face and I just laughed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
201Steve Posted July 10, 2019 Report Share Posted July 10, 2019 I hear a lot of people say things about insurance being higher and longer training, so get a Piper/Cessna, but it’s less talked about that the acquisition costs of buying two airplanes instead of one you’ll keep indefinitely probably exceeds the higher insurance/longer training time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davidv Posted July 10, 2019 Report Share Posted July 10, 2019 At the end of the day, buying an airplane isn’t completely logical but we do it anyway because of our love of flying. Sure, define your “mission”, but ultimately buy the airplane that’s going to put a smile on your face when you see it and give you joy when flying it. As long as you’re a good student you can learn to fly anything. Assuming you have the means to buy either a 172 or Eagle as you’ve indicated, buying the 172 would be similar to ordering a triple cheeseburger, fries, and a Diet Coke. If you’re doing this for fun and your love of airplanes, just go all the way and get the one you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted July 10, 2019 Report Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) If you’re comfortable in the C175 I don’t think the Mooney will be much trouble. There will be additional steps and complexities but the Mooney is likely the more forgiving aircraft during landing. I don’t have any C175 time but I do have some C180 time and my F model feels far more forgiving. Some of that may be due to the fact that I’ve been flying it for so long. Any competent Instructor should be able to check you out in the Mooney. Edited July 10, 2019 by Shadrach 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Yucht Posted July 18, 2019 Report Share Posted July 18, 2019 MB, I was in your place a few months ago. Still finishing up my PPL and starting my presumably long search for an Ovation 2 DX. As it turned out I found my near ideal plane within a couple of months. While the timing wasn't perfect I went ahead and purchased it. Insurance costs $7100 for the first year. It's a challenge trying to fly two planes and I decided to finish up my PPL in a 172. I only have about 6 hours in the M20R (I couldn't resist flying it a little) and it's a dream, but definitely different from flying the 172. I wouldn't say its any harder to fly, but it definitely requires more attention to engine parameters and airspeed. Definitely requires a lot more attention to stay ahead of the plane. So if you get the Mooney now you may prolong your training before getting your PPL which will cost you more. The additional insurance premium of being a student will be significant. Ultimately you have to decide if the added cost of owning the plane "early" is worth it. Since I was looking for a very specific model with very specific setup (no AC and no TKS) I felt the added upfront cost was worth it for a plane I plan to have a long time. That said, if you can wait I would. The added cost would have been nice for the avionics upgrade I am doing now. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted August 18, 2019 Report Share Posted August 18, 2019 On 7/18/2019 at 6:36 PM, Steve Yucht said: I wouldn't say its any harder to fly, but it definitely requires more attention to engine parameters and airspeed. Definitely requires a lot more attention to stay ahead of the plane. Hmmm... Lines #2 & #3... define what makes it harder to fly... Steve, i parsed your post to point out the reasoning people use a C172 as a stepping stone to bigger faster planes... looks like you stated it using your own words. Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mufflerbearing Posted August 18, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2019 I really have loved the input that has been so graciously been given. We went out to the plane that we have decided to purchase and flew it the other day. It was in really good shape. Owner is hiding nothing. Talked to the MSC that just did the annual and there are no squaks. The MSC said the owner had a policy to fix anything that may be wrong. Money was never a discussion to be had. The plane flew amazingly well. Yes, I fully understand the comments that I have been flying pickups and this is more like a Porsche. I loved the controls and feed back. We have decided to follow through and buy the plane. I have one of my instructors that has Mooney time that will fly commercial with me to the plane and we will fly it home together. What is another 8 hours of training? The plan is to park it for the next little bit until I finish my PPL, then start flying the M20S with instructors for transition flying and to learn all the little things specific to this wonderful plane. Having said this before, I believe, being a high performance driver instructor, I totally get the value out of proper instruction and from the proper instructor! I have instructors that I have instruct newer drivers. There are a few, or I will, instruct drivers that are well seasoned looking for that last second or two per lap. Anyhow, we are Mooney Owners! Now to find a hanger... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted August 18, 2019 Report Share Posted August 18, 2019 Get the most out of the additional eight hours of training that you can... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLRDMD Posted August 18, 2019 Report Share Posted August 18, 2019 11 minutes ago, Mufflerbearing said: I have one of my instructors that has Mooney time that will fly commercial with me to the plane and we will fly it home together. How much Mooney time and in which models? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkaye Posted August 19, 2019 Report Share Posted August 19, 2019 1 hour ago, KLRDMD said: How much Mooney time and in which models? As Ken has asked, How much Mooney time? In my opinion, "some Mooney time" just doesn't cut it. You want transition training from a Mooney Specific Instructor. In fact in transitioning to ANY airplane you want a person who knows and has many thousands of hours in your type of airplane. Those people are out there and you will get a lot more out of the training. You can go back to your favorite instructor later. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mufflerbearing Posted August 20, 2019 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2019 On 8/18/2019 at 5:11 PM, donkaye said: As Ken has asked, How much Mooney time? In my opinion, "some Mooney time" just doesn't cut it. You want transition training from a Mooney Specific Instructor. In fact in transitioning to ANY airplane you want a person who knows and has many thousands of hours in your type of airplane. Those people are out there and you will get a lot more out of the training. You can go back to your favorite instructor later. I asked my instructor that I will be using for shuttling the plane here to Idaho from Michigan how much time he as in a M20. He has a couple of hundred hours in a C and a J. I talked to Mark the broker and the owner will fly with him 2-3 hours before we shuttle it. My main instructor that I will be planning on using for transition training has several thousand in type. He owns a Mooney and owns the flight school. That being said, what is your dance card looking like? Mark said he would hook me up with you for transition training. I'm game! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted August 20, 2019 Report Share Posted August 20, 2019 Briefly... Screamin’ Eagle..? 310hp, And gobs of torque... 50% more than any Mooney your flight instructor has flown in... Use caution with every push of the throttle until the training and experience come together.... The plane has more hp than a 90s LT1 Corvette, And weighs significantly less... Long Bodies... They weigh a few hundred pounds more... So their stall speeds and approach speeds are about 15% more... Collectively, with mass and velocity increase, their momentum increases... Complexity increases... all the additional systems are pretty cool, but can take some time to master... For my delivery flight, TX to NJ... I did the transition training in TX, when that was complete... flew the plain IFR with the CFII all the way home... encountered some inclement weather, heavy rain in IMC, a closed airport because a regional jet went off the end of the only runway, and some icing on final approach back at the home drome... Keep both eyes open the whole time... Expect that anything can happen on the trip... PP thoughts only, not a CFI... The coolest part of the TTing... E-descent from 10k’... it only takes a couple of minutes... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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