That dangerous pilot on your field

[Shadrach]

15 hours ago, bob865 said:

So I think the thread is drifting from my original intentions but in this case, it's a good thing. 

@Shadrach My point about the speed is something that makes me go Hmmm...  Not necessarily a bad thing in an of itself, but not something I can explain.  Like I said before, I can't come up with a safe way to get 100mph above Vne in a Cherokee safely.  Maybe I'm wrong and if someone can help me understand why I am, I welcome it.  Those kinds of speeds in Mooney are lot more believable.  The adjustable pitch prop allows it go faster without necessarily speeding up the engine, the plane flies closer to the Vne mark in cruise and in normal operation is not unusual to see in the yellow arc, etc.  Comparing your Mooney and a Cherokee are not exactly apple to apples. 

Again, I'm asking to learn, can someone give me a plausible, safe way to get to 210mph in a Cherokee 140?

So to try to clarify where I actually meant for this to go.  A  more philosophical question direction. 

What do you do about the guy on the field who may or may not be dangerous?  Someone you have seen do something dangerous or the gossip says is dangerous.  Do you approach them?  Do you try to help a fellow aviator improve themselves?  How exactly do you do or word that?  Has anyone done it?  How did they react?  Is there any recourse outside of a pilot to pilot chat?  At what point would you feel the need to go that far?

 

If you think he’s dangerous it would be prudent to avoid flying with him. If you know him well enough, it might also be prudent to talk to him and try to get a sense of how much is gossip and how much is real. An inadvertent IMC encounter is certainly not something to be proud of, but if it happened, better that he was being monitored by and talking to ATC. The speed thing is silly. He’s still 10kts short of the unofficial record. We see some pretty horrific low altitude winds, add a mountain wave or a high speed descent  it becomes more clear that it can be done. 

Edited May 11, 2019 by Shadrach

[Hank]

5 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

The speed thing is silly. He’s still 10kts short of the unofficial record. We see some pretty horrific low altitude winds, add a mountain wave or a high speed descent  it becomes more clear that it can be done. 

OMG!! The Pre-J speed record is held by a C! And two of the top three C speeds are faster than the Es . . . And the M20-S.    My C is fast, but not that fast, I've only hit 186 knots in straight-and-level flight. But I don't see any rules or disclaimers in the speed record website, so maybe 1000fpm descents rule?

[RLCarter]

This was in a Cherokee 140, straight and level with cruise power. I can see pointing the nose down and busting 200mph and keeping it out of the red

[carusoam]

Interesting thread...

What makes an MSer different than other Mooney pilots...

The ability to engage in conversation.

Some topics are clearly more difficult than others.

Some people have the natural gift of conversation.

 

When you see a situation that you would like to change...

Crummy pilot, risk taking pilot, error making pilot...

Find a way to engage in a positive MS style conversation...

Take interest in what they are doing... (more of a challenge for you, if they are planning to fly Brand B...) 

 

One of my favorite topics with people I don’t know very well is Transition Training... There are dozens of ways to make this a positive and easy conversation starter...

To change somebody’s behavior probably requires to get to know them better.... could take five minutes, five hours, or five years depending on the two people involved...

 

It probably never gets easy... by making a friend, you can change the world...

PP thoughts only, not a social superstar...

Best regards,

-a-

[M016576]

7 hours ago, Davidv said:

I land and the citation lands behind me.  Because of the short distance between us, we are both on parallel taxiways next to each other waiting for ground to clear us to ramp.  However, the citation doesn't hold short of the taxiway but rather joins Alpha to starts taxiing to the ramp.  A very annoyed controller says "Citation 45V, what are you doing?!? You can't just start taxing without me clearing you".  She slams on the brakes and apologizes.  I'm then cleared to follow the citation to the ramp and park next to it.  The Citation parks with full spoilers and flaps deployed and finally cleans up the plane just before shutting down.  A single pilot emerges from the plane and after doing a little research on flight aware it appeared to be a part 91 owner operated plane.

Now I'm not saying this person is a bad pilot because I only witnessed one event, but I was absolutely shocked that someone who is flying this type of aircraft could be making these type of mistakes.  

My initial reaction:  The type of person that has the scratch to buy and operate one of those under part 91, then chooses to fly it single piloted reminds me of the adage about “a lawyer that represents themself has a fool for a client.”

but then I thought... well if I won the lottery, I’d totally buy a single piloted jet and fly myself and my family all over at 500 knots... so what does that make me? Hah!

[Jerry 5TJ]

4 minutes ago, M016576 said:

... well if I won the lottery, I’d totally buy a single piloted jet and fly myself and my family all over at 500 knots... so what does that make me? Hah!

I knew this pilot. She won the Silicon Valley lottery with her startups.

She had owned a Mooney TLS then several turboprops and was on her third Citation when she crashed.  

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=182be54e-54fe-458d-8a3b-789afb83bf51

In this game we play for keeps.   

[MrRodgers]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

That's my breakfast view when the sun is up.

It's nice in the evening, too.

Good for canoeing and kayaking year round!

Looks like my recent visit to the doctor. Better get that to the lab right away.

[M016576]

20 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

I knew this pilot. She won the Silicon Valley lottery with her startups.

She had owned a Mooney TLS then several turboprops and was on her third Citation when she crashed.  

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=182be54e-54fe-458d-8a3b-789afb83bf51

In this game we play for keeps.   

Indeed.  

It is particularly important in the turbine world, to continually have one’s skills objectively evaluated by a competent third party on a regular basis.  I wonder what this particular pilot’s training program looked like.

[MrRodgers]

 

 

 

2

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

If you think he’s dangerous it would be prudent to avoid flying with him. If you know him well enough, it might also be prudent to talk to him and try to get a sense of how much is gossip and how much is real. An inadvertent IMC encounter is certainly not something to be proud of, but if it happened, better that he was being monitored by and talking to ATC. The speed thing is silly. He’s still 10kts short of the unofficial record. We see some pretty horrific low altitude winds, add a mountain wave or a high speed descent  it becomes more clear that it can be done. 

There was a hangar neighbor of mine in Santa Monica who was one of those pilots described above.  He had many hard landings at KSMO and KVNY and even left the runway on one of them on rollout after landing.   After numerous CFI's (mine included) refused to fly with him again or sign him off he found someone who cleared him on his review and he subsequently landed hard (again) and killed himself.  Many people tried to talk with him about him needing to consider stopping his aviation activities but he refused.  Although in the video (see link) he says he was unfamiliar with the area he had in fact flown into KVNY on many occasions and was quite familiar with the approach.  It really was avoidable and very sad that he would not listen to the advice given that perhaps he should stop flying.

Text Below From YouTube.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The pilot was involved in a car accident that resulted in serious injuries and required intensive care treatment for about 5 months. Another witness reported that the pilot took several months to recuperate but was not the same person physically after the car accident. The witness stated that when the pilot returned to flying, he was unable to hold his head straight. He was frequently hunched over and was only capable of using about 10% of his right arm and hand strength. When driving, the pilot frequently used his left hand to pick up his right arm and place it on the gear shift. The witness reported that the pilot's physical condition was the same the day before the accident. The witness further stated that several instructors refused to fly with him; eventually, the pilot found one instructor who agreed to sign him off for a flight review. The witness stated that several of the pilot's peers had encouraged him to stop flying

[flyingcheesehead]

6 hours ago, bob865 said:

Well his conclusion was not, “I should not have forced that landing,” but rather “there has to be something wrong with the plane.  It’s not climbing fast enough to clear the trees” 

ground speed of 181kts in a Cherokee 140 with a Vne of 170mph!

When asked he said, “yeah the clouds were a little low.  I had to fly though one at one point, but I was being vectored so it’s all good.”

Now he is buying a v-tail bonanza.  When he brings it up, we ask how he’s planning to do it since he doesn’t have a high performance or complex endorsement.  He appears surprised but concedes he guesses he will stay the weekend and get his time and endorsement before he flies back.

What would you do?

I'd love the answer to that question.

I don't know who the most dangerous pilot on my field is. I do know one guy that I'm absolutely sure is going to die in an airplane. In fact, on one takeoff, I was pretty sure I was going to watch him (and his family) die right then and there, severely over gross departing a grass strip on a hot day with full fuel, full seats and bags in a Cherokee 140. He literally rolled off the end of the runway - There was a fairly steep downslope off the end of the runway, leading to a piece of land about 50 feet lower, and we watched him disappear off the end of the runway before the Cherokee struggled mightily into a shallow climb. Then, he bought a Bonanza. Geared it up almost immediately. Got into icing and didn't know what to do so just sat in it and got lucky that he flew out of it fast enough.

He's a really nice guy and I like him a lot, and I really don't want him to die in an airplane, but I'm convinced it's going to happen. I simply don't think the words exist to successfully convince him he needs to improve his skills and judgement.  

Rick Durden wrote a great article for AvWeb on this years ago, but AvWeb still hasn't fully recovered from their recent issues so it's not available right now.

29 minutes ago, Runway37 said:

But that day I was the dangerous pilot.

The important thing is that you realize it, learn from it, and do better. They call it a "license to learn" for a reason.

What I've learned over 15+ years and 2000+ hours of GA flying is that most of the dumb@$$ stunts that you hear about are a lot more repeatable than you'd think.

For example, people seem to manage to gear up Mooneys. I don't know how... I feel like unless I was in the pattern and never got very fast, I would never be able to slow down enough to attempt a landing, gear or not. This is yet another good reason to ensure you fly your final approach at the right speed - If you can't get down to that speed, chances are your gear is up!

Yet, at least once a month, a Mooney gets geared up. I don't know how... But I suspect I'll know just after I hear that awful scraping noise. And now it's major confession time, so I hope you all quit reading this by now.

People try to start their engines with cowl plugs still in. Dumb, right? I thought so too, until I did it myself... With huge group of friends watching too. I had just been flying a little bit earlier, so I did an abbreviated preflight. Apparently it was a bit TOO abbreviated. And then a few years later, I did it AGAIN (really super next level dumb), with friends along with me. It was a cold, windy day and I wanted to keep as much heat in the engine compartment after unplugging it as possible, but I never went back to take them out. Now, I merely have to remind myself that the engine is not going to cool enough in the span of 10 minutes to cause damage at startup. Luckily, I have *always* put the strap between the plugs in front of the prop, so that when I crank the engine, it flings the plugs across the ramp. 

People take off with tow bars attached. Dumb, right? I thought so too, until I did it myself. One day, when I was interrupted during my normal routine, I somehow left the tow bar on after pulling the plane out of the hangar. I'm still not sure how exactly I managed to overlook that, even knowing I was distracted. I mean, that's dumb, right? But the only reason I didn't take off with it still attached is that someone saw me taxiing with it and stopped me. I still didn't know why he stopped me until I saw it myself. And no, I couldn't feel nor hear a thing when taxiing. It was dumb, until I did it. And now, prior to cranking the engine, I think back to retrace my steps to putting the tow bar back in the hangar.

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

1 hour ago, M016576 said:

Indeed.  

It is particularly important in the turbine world, to continually have one’s skills objectively evaluated by a competent third party on a regular basis.  I wonder what this particular pilot’s training program looked like.

Her medical was not current at the time of the crash.  Nor had she met the annual recurrent training requirements. Her insurance policy was voided for those violations.  

[flyingcheesehead]

Then, there's the most dangerous pilot on YouTube... This guy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxGjm4p2paQEhuyuVp_woDA

[KRviator]

10 hours ago, Niko182 said:

remember that VNE is IAS, while he was flying 210MPH GS, and GS is TAS with wind. If my VNE is 195KIAS, and i'm descending out of 12,000ft, 195KIAS, is going to be something like 235KTAS without any tailwinds if not more.

VNE is most definitely not IAS - at least - not all the time. For the majority of light aircraft, it is true the manufacturer does not specify it as anything else, but there are a great many aircraft, sailplanes, the entire Vans RV line and more where VNE is based on True airspeed, and as a result, it is easy to blow through up high or in the descent. I've never been comfortable with the E-models getting about cruising & descending well into the yellow arc, notwithstanding the strength of the Mooney airframe.

It really depends on what the manufacturer has based its' VNE on. As an example, for the RV's, it is based on the flutter margin, which in turn, is based on TAS, hence why having an EFIS is great, as most dynamically scale the ASI colour bands based on the instantaneous TAS.

[aviatoreb]

9 hours ago, skydvrboy said:

Are you crazy?  Do you know how many people die from heart disease due to lack of exercise?  Now get off that couch!

Exactly - I was saying that ironically.

Since I had just completed saying that physical activities like biking and canoeing are dangerous (acute dangers due to accidents) but clearly they are good for your physical health.  Then I ironically concluded that I was safe on the couch.  But that is clearly dangerous due to chronic dangers like heart disease, and the other diseases that associate with sloth.

[carusoam]

@KRviator

This definition comes up every now and then... Mooneys have their Vne marked as a redline on the ASI...

Whatever it is based on... a percentage of flutter speed or speed of sound... maybe somebody took into account full control inputs at that speed and forces required to remove parts of the plane...

At full power, down low, Some Mooneys can exceed Their Vne easily with a slight descent...

No, the wings don’t fall off immediately... but, if you run into bumps while exceeding Vne... you may be loading your risk basket faster than you can slow down...

 

Risk of sitting on the couch vs. risk of going for a jog... I never had a heart-attack sitting on a couch... 

Reminder to have that cholesterol checked and take it seriously... The FAA allows us to fly and take meds for that...

 

PP thoughts only, not a public service announcer...

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

8 hours ago, Hank said:

OMG!! The Pre-J speed record is held by a C! And two of the top three C speeds are faster than the Es . . . 

Only because I used a screenshot of my IPad rather than a photo. 

Edited May 11, 2019 by Shadrach

[midlifeflyer]

13 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'm never watching my speed on final.

Have to chuckle because I used to always cover the ASI for a landing before soloing a primary student and do so fairly regularly during checkouts, transitions and flight reviews.

[midlifeflyer]

5 hours ago, flyingcheesehead said:

Then, there's the most dangerous pilot on YouTube... This guy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxGjm4p2paQEhuyuVp_woDA

Without looking, you must be talking about Jerry.

[Shadrach]

8 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

I knew this pilot. She won the Silicon Valley lottery with her startups.

She had owned a Mooney TLS then several turboprops and was on her third Citation when she crashed.  

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=182be54e-54fe-458d-8a3b-789afb83bf51

In this game we play for keeps.   

She had over 3000hrs and clearly had the training and ability. I read that final report and it truly seems that she was departing under some sort of self induced duress. It reads like she was barely present for the flight. Indeed “we play for keeps” but you have to play, she seemed to be going through the motions (and doing a poor job of it)  from ADM to execution. The decision to depart that night had to have been based solely on emotion because there was little to no logic in her actions.  I’m sorry for your loss.

[Mcstealth]

On 5/10/2019 at 1:59 PM, bob865 said:

I  Sit back while I regale you with my tale. Sorry in advance for the wall of text.

 

We love being regaled. No worries!!! :)

[aviatoreb]

Hey!  I’ve broken the unofficial speed record for my listing 231 rocket.  Listed at 313kts and I’ve done 327 and I’ve got the picture somewhere to prove it!

[Cyril Gibb]

14 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

44,000 acres, thats the size of thenwhole damn UK! 

I think 44,000 acres is less than 69 square miles.  Assuming the standard acre of 1 chain by 1 furlong.  Lake Ontario is a 5 minute walk and is the smallest of the Great Lakes at 7340 square miles.  Still way smaller than GB.

[Hank]

3 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

44,000 acres, thats the size of thenwhole damn UK! 

Clear, clean freshwater, too. It's what the county uses as its water supply. Parts are almost 200' deep. 

[Guest]

Sadly every airport has one of these pilots.  Ours landed on the taxiway, now affectionately named 26L, then on another occasion cleared the runway and had no idea where he was.  He has passed on now and been replaced by another.

Clarence

[Hank]

I only have experience with one dangerous pilot where I used to be based. He liked whirling his RV around low, made me run for cover between hangars once, I thought he was augering in. That day he angered several people that day.

Not long after, he was caught flying similarly on radar from the nearby controlled field . . .