M20E4ME Posted July 10, 2011 Report Posted July 10, 2011 Hey guys....new to the forum and also Mooney ownership. Sold my Cherokee 140/160 and replacing it with a 1969 E Chapparal this week. I am looking for some guidance on specifics to look for at the last stage of the Pre-buy. I will be there for it. I had 1 cylinder removed a week ago and pics taken with a boroscope...A&P said all looks good. 1 tiny spec on cylinder wall that he said is definetly not a corrosion spot and nothing he thinks we should be concerned with(25 year/2nd Gen A&P who has known this A/C for a long time). Cam looks good, etc... The A/C has 750 hours on a FRM 200hp Fuel Injected and only a 2500 hour A/F and based in NE USA. Was tied down for several years, but no corrosion I am told. I will be removing inspection plates this week to view for myself. Due to the old owner getting ill, it hasn't flown much in past 2 years, but just went through an extensive annual before my inspection started. No corrosion, so I am told (I will be removing inspection plates this week to view for myself). I would really appreciate it if you guys could point to any areas where I need to pay close attn. I am looking for a positive Mooney experience and trying to do all my due diligence.... Thanks and appreciate any input! Quote
lahso Posted July 10, 2011 Report Posted July 10, 2011 I would be concerned by the lack of recent flying time. First of all, get a pre-buy from a reputable MSC. Not sure of your location, but several can be recommended when replying back. Second, my C model had not been flown much the previous year when I bought it. After putting close to 400hrs the first year, I had enough engine issues to warrant a overhaul. I believe it was related to the aicraft sitting for most of the year tied down and flown little. I was forewarned but rolled the dice and lost. Now, I have nice aircraft with a great engine, and perfect for my missions, but I did learn the hard way. This is a great forum, and many folks are willing to help out. Let us know how it goes. Quote
M20E4ME Posted July 10, 2011 Author Report Posted July 10, 2011 That was my concern, but I talked with my local A&P and he said that the 200hp lycoming is solid and didn't see any reason why the short flight time over a couple years would hurt it. My Cherokee was a similar deal...only much less time..200 hours over 10 years with very little to none the last couple years before I got it. It was a dream, with no issues...but I realize this is not the same A/C which is why I wanted some opinions. Quote
Gone Posted July 10, 2011 Report Posted July 10, 2011 I second lahso's advice to get it inspected by someone who knows Mooney's. Most mechanics find them to be "knuckle busters" and are generally frustrated by how their construction restricts access to components that are normally easier to access in Pipers and Cessnas. These are some of the things I have learned that are specific to E models. Mooney SB 208 is about examining the steel cage for corrosion that may be caused by water leaking onto this frame, especially on the port side of the frame. Being parked outside increases the chances of that and you have to pull the seats and the side panels out to inspect the steel members. The ram air duct is notorious for having holes in it and letting crap get into your fuel mixture. If the your 69 E model has a doghouse (old style baffling) around the engine, it has probably worn through in one or two places. The amount of play in the tail is a telltale sign for any mechanic who actually knows Mooneys. It is easy to check. The aircraft will fly rock-solid straight and level, hands off, in any conditions that are not turbulent. If it does not, then there may be something out of rig. Properly rigging a Mooney generally takes more than one flight. If yours is not a Johnson bar manual gear aircraft, you should determine which actuator is actually installed. There is a difference in reliability of the 40:1 system when compared to the 20:1 systems. This one topic took 25 minutes of Jerry Manthey's class when he was still teaching it. Hope this helps. Quote
aerobat95 Posted July 10, 2011 Report Posted July 10, 2011 Just out of curiosity does anyone know if a '74F has the 40:1 system or the 20:1 system? If any of you guys know much about the topic I would love to learn more. Thanks.... Quote
M20E4ME Posted July 10, 2011 Author Report Posted July 10, 2011 I assume the 40:1 system would be the better one? Here is a little more info. The engine was done back in 1995 and had been flown Xcountry times a lot. 750 hours since the new engine. Winters were in the south (he was retired), and he did keep a canvas canopy cover on it (should help with SB208?) and also had all new interior 4 years ago, which I assume means that they would have checked and seen any corrosion related to SB208. Passed IFR cert this weekend. Quote
richardheitzman Posted July 10, 2011 Report Posted July 10, 2011 OK I submitted my comments and it did not post. Here it is again condensed from 4 paragraphs to 1 sentance: If you do not get a full blown pre buy inspection by a Reputable Mooney Service Center, or a FANTASTIC Mooney mechanic who has not been working on that aircraft, you are making a potantially HUGE AND COSTLY MISTAKE!. Just search this site for Pre buy inspection to see all the threads. By your own words you are not familiar with Mooney aircraft yet you are "going to pull some panels" to check for corrosion? Which ones? All of them? How about the spar? How about the tubular structure? Tail cone? Landing gear? Please heed our comments and get a real pre buy done. Just ask how many aircraft these owners here walked away from before finding the one they bought. Quote
Gone Posted July 10, 2011 Report Posted July 10, 2011 I agree with Richard. I had 5 pre-buys done before the one that resulted in the purchase of C-FSWR. Each cost me about $500 and each saved me about $50,000 in mistakes. Three were US aircraft and were done at reputable MSCs. The money you spend on that level of knowledge and expertise will save you a bucket load of trouble and cost later on. As for the electric actuators, I think the good ones are the slower ones (40:1) because of the lower stress on the system caused by a longer cycle time. But I am not an expert in that area. I own a manual gear Mooney. Quote
danb35 Posted July 11, 2011 Report Posted July 11, 2011 The 40:1 actuators are the slower models. I understand that they're preferred to the 20:1 units, but I am also not an expert in the subject for the same reason as Ned. Quote
M20E4ME Posted July 11, 2011 Author Report Posted July 11, 2011 First, I want to thank you guys for your input! That's why I think the forums are invaluable. The MSC isn't going to be an option in this case. There just isn't enough time, but I do want to go over this thoroughly for the corrosion and will this week. I am comfortable with the A&P and his Mooney experience, but I still want to go over this A/C myself. I now have a list of areas and what to look for courtesy of my Mooney A&P here at home, but anything that I need to keep a special eye out for would be much appreciated. I have no choice but to get on my back and do this myself. The A/C is a GREAT deal(IF there is no major corrosion anywhere, or even minor) and was never on the market. The owner passed and family is settling the estate.... Quote
tony Posted July 11, 2011 Report Posted July 11, 2011 Quote: M20E4ME but I talked with my local A&P and he said that the 200hp lycoming is solid and didn't see any reason why the short flight time over a couple years would hurt it. Quote
Ron McBride Posted July 11, 2011 Report Posted July 11, 2011 Just out of curiosity does anyone know if a '74F has the 40:1 system or the 20:1 system? If any of you guys know much about the topic I would love to learn more. Thanks.... I have a 69F. I think that the 74 has the 20:1 system also. I converted mine to the 40:1 system. I prefer the 40:1 system. If you fl the 20:1 system, the gear feels violent on the plane, it slams up and down. Part of My landing checklist was to note the slamming down effect. The first time I drtopped the gear on the 40:1 system, I thought that we had a problem due to the lack of the gear slamming down. This has to be much easier on the gear system. Ron Quote
aerobat95 Posted July 11, 2011 Report Posted July 11, 2011 I am not sure what I have....I do know it is very quite going up and coming down...definately not violent and don't hear it slamming up or down. Quote
Ron McBride Posted July 11, 2011 Report Posted July 11, 2011 The you probably have the 40:1 gears. Ron Quote
Clarence Posted July 11, 2011 Report Posted July 11, 2011 As there is no known industry standard for a "pre-purchase inspection" you are in a buyer beware area. In my shop (a MSC) we only do a PPI by complete disassembly of the airplane, every panel and cover is removed for the inspection. If at the end of the inspection a deal is completed we sign out a 100 hour and an annual inspection, so the new owner starts out with everything fresh from the start. While several techs are doing the airplane inspection another is reviewing log books and completing the AD and s/b search. I would be wary of the "good deal" nothing is free and cheap airplanes are cheap for a reason. You should also be having someone not connected to the airplane doing your inspection, it is a serious conflict of interest if the current maintainer is doing the inspection. Educate yourself as well , you can search most Ad's your self and Mooney has made all service info available on line for free. Reading all applicable this aircraft will be a real education. Good luck with it, Clarence Quote
richardheitzman Posted July 13, 2011 Report Posted July 13, 2011 I truely hope it all works out well for you. BUT let's step back and look at this. The potential buyer has ignored the advice from some very knowledgable people here all saying almost the same thing, "Get a pre-buy done at a MSC or by a knowledgeable mechanic not the one working on the aircraft" and the potential buyer comes back with "there isn't time" with the reason that "they are settleing the estate". I feel we will hear more of this story and it is not going to end up well. I am sad. Quote
M20E4ME Posted July 14, 2011 Author Report Posted July 14, 2011 Well...first, I do value and listen to all the knowledge up here. Heck...why come to the forum if you aren't going to listen to the advice. Thanks to all of you...I owe you all, and here is why... I flew in today to finish the pre-buy and inspect ALL the areas you guys have taked about, as well as what I found on the web...and...many of you were correct. CORROSION...LOTS....doesn't take a MSC to see what I saw. Nobody was more sad than me today. The A&P is a really great guy and I can tell that the maintenance aspect was great(ad's, logs, etc)...all of it. HOWEVER...his idea of "little to no corrosion" leaves me scratching my head. It was terrible. I text pics to my paint guy who knows Mooneys well and he too was baffled. I should have known about it. Would have saved me the time and $$. There was surface bubbling all over and the deeper I got, the more I found. Headed home....back to square one. Lesson learned. Thanks again guys.... Quote
Shadrach Posted July 14, 2011 Report Posted July 14, 2011 Where was the corrosion found? What type? I am always curious to see how the older birds age and where they fail. Also, not that it matters now, but the I do not believe that any of the 69 models have the "dog house style" cooling plenum as was mentioned earlier. There has been a lot of mentioning of of "low hour time" SMOH but "high calendar time" engines, or planes that have seen little use for a year or so. The real rule of thumb in these situations is...it depends. Engines do not necessarily corrode just because they've not run but it certainly does happen. Looking back through our logs (long before I was a pilot) there were a few years that logged 5 hrs or less and one that logged zero... The original engine (1967) was run from 0 to 80hrs a year, almost never preheated and was primarily run 50 ROP. It was OH'd in 2000, it was 33 years old @1950 hrs. It had a single cylinder replaced due to a broken exhaust valve at 1850hrs it was OH'd because the cylinder incident left the pilot with (understandably) little confidence in the engine. The link below will tell you all you need to know about Mooney electric gear... http://www.donmaxwell.com/publications/MAPA_TEXT/Dukes%20ITT%20landing%20gear/dukes__itt_landing_gear_actuato.htm Quote
M20E4ME Posted July 14, 2011 Author Report Posted July 14, 2011 it was everywhere...it'd be easier to tell you where it wasn't. Just a total disappointment. Lots of surface bubbles...discoloration of aluminum inside inspection panels under wings. Gear wells flaking paint everywhere and definite weak metal along with surface rust on hinges. The list could go on and on.... Quote
M20E4ME Posted July 14, 2011 Author Report Posted July 14, 2011 also...the interior of engine including the cam were spotless. I don't think that was an issue at all. The problem for me was confined to the corrosion of airframe. Quote
Shadrach Posted July 14, 2011 Report Posted July 14, 2011 I'd love to see some pics if you took them; the opinions on what is considered "bad" varies a bit from person to person and A&P to A&P... I am of the opinion that finding a 40yr old airplane with 0 corrosion is a rarity at best and next to impossible at worst. I've never seen aluminum "bubble"... In an aviation context, I've seen pit, filaform and few forms of intergranular corrosion with pieces flaking or chunking off... Quote
M20E4ME Posted July 15, 2011 Author Report Posted July 15, 2011 Here are a few...I heard from the A&P. He has been instructed by the estate to "clean" up the corroded areas and prime them so it is more likely it will sell. I am lost as to how they can possibly clean up this much?! They wanted to know if I had interest once that's complete...I am not sure this much could ever be cleaned up to good standards. Let's see what you guys think. The 1 with the Zinc coating is the inside of the aft fuselage at one of the seams Quote
M20E4ME Posted July 15, 2011 Author Report Posted July 15, 2011 here are 2 more that I think are interesting...the fuel stain is of interest I guess. When I called my paint guy and had sent him this pic along with others, this is the 1st one he wanted to talk about. He swears up and down that this stain is directly related to the use of AUTO gas. Obv we know that there is not an STC for the 360/200hp Lycoming to use autogas. That was of major concern to him, despite what I saw as far as how good the interior of the eng looked. The A&P said there was no way that the old owner used autogas, but he also said in a statement minutes before this came up that the old owner was cheap. Hmmmmm.....anyone have any thoughts on this? Quote
flight2000 Posted July 15, 2011 Report Posted July 15, 2011 That does look bad, but can't really tell if it's just surface corrosion or if it goes deeper. I'd probably pass on this one and keep looking. What part of Ohio are you in? Brian Quote
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