M20C missing in NC mountains from KDKX

[Guest]

10 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

We were all taught to practice partial panel, but sadly in an emergency it hasn't worked out well. The FAA eased up requirements a few years back and encourages a 2nd attitude indicator in place of a turn coordinator

 https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC91-75.pdf

Transport Canada will not allow removal of the turn and bank or turn coordinator for installation of a second AI, so stupid.  Many have done it but are illegal.  One of my clients went to a flight school to do his IR and they said not until the turn coordinator was reinstalled.

Clarence

[Shadrach]

On 3/15/2019 at 10:06 PM, triple8s said:

I have often thought about losing gyros in IMC and there is no reason with the low cost of a decent back indicators we have available today not to have a plan for when primary instruments fail. One thing I wanted to say too is I think it's insane for a person to think a cellphone or iPad 6-pak is anything more than a toy because it may be better than nothing but just barely. There is no reason not to pick up a used dynon D1  or something like that. I know they can be had for way less than 1000$ used and even buying new they are so worth it. A device that send attitude info to an iPad I dont trust much either. I think get a good backup system and also fly it under the hood in vfr with a safety pilot. Sad to lose fellow pilots.

A GPS 6pack of any sort is indeed quite a bit better than nothing. An IPad with AHRS and synth vision would be very usable. The issue is not that these are “toys”. Far from it.  They’ve brought a great deal of redundancy and situational awareness to the cockpit at a value previously unseen in GA.  In my opinion, the issue is the unidentified AI failure that is only recognized after the airplane is in an unusual attitude and the pilot on his way to disoriented.  If the situation is not rectified in an immediatel but calm and smooth manner it will likely be exacerbated by panic and overreaction. A second AI is a great idea, but training partial panel and having a very bright, low vac annunciator is is just as important. No gyro turns from  straight and level are something most of us could do proficiently. Recovery from a descending, steep turn in IMC while disoriented? Not as likely...

Edited March 19, 2019 by Shadrach

[Jerry 5TJ]

11 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

We were all taught to practice partial panel, but sadly in an emergency it hasn't worked out well. The FAA eased up requirements a few years back and encourages a 2nd attitude indicator in place of a turn coordinator

I don’t practice the traditional “partial panel” anymore.  With multiple AI it doesn’t make sense to spend scarce training time on an unlikely event.  

[mooniac58]

5 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

No it picks up the ip somehow, this is not the only usa news site that does this, a lot have taken this copout.  

Not entirely a "copout" really.  GDPR was a pretty extremist approach to online privacy protection and with way over the top penalties, especially for small websites/companies.  The cost for a good sized website that is custom built (not like MS which uses a package software for example) could be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars to meet exact compliance, especially when you really need to bring in a GDPR consultant to make sure you did not miss anything.  Again the penalties for non-compliance are in excess of $20 million USD...so basically bankruptcy for most small sites.  The safer and cheaper option was just to block EU users.  If I was still running the old MS forums that I built myself I would have had to do the same thing.

[M20F-1968]

I do not buy the Ipad as a back-up thing.  

In an emergency situation, you want to quickly find and use traditional instruments as back-ups.  You want the back-up instruments to be ready, waing, working and available at a glance.

With a heightened level of anxiety, even small changes in procedures or thought processes can be problematic.  The cost of additional equipment to insure a seamless transition is negligible when compared to the consequences.  I have 3 artificial horizons in my plane, G66, Vac AI and electric AI.   

Yes, there is a story to that.  I started out with a steam gauge panel, with a vacuum artificial horizon and a 2" electric one.   When I bought the G600, I though of taking out one, but then realized that:

1. If I had 2, it may take more time to recognize the problem.  If I had 3, I can see immediately which 2 correlate, and thus see which is bad.  If in IMC, that can save precious time.

2.  There is no fussing with transitions,  just fly the remaining 2 and cross check

3. I realize there is a push to get rid of the vacuum pump, but in my situation I have redundancy in instruments and also have redundancy in what drive them.  

All my back-up instruments are traditional gauges.  The new electronic stuff is real nice, but it is still a computer.  

John Breda

 

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, M20F-1968 said:

I do not buy the Ipad as a back-up thing.  

In an emergency situation, you want to quickly find and use traditional instruments as back-ups.  You want the back-up instruments to be ready, waing, working and available at a glance.

With a heightened level of anxiety, even small changes in procedures or thought processes can be problematic.  The cost of additional equipment to insure a seamless transition is negligible when compared to the consequences.  I have 3 artificial horizons in my plane, G66, Vac AI and electric AI.   

Yes, there is a story to that.  I started out with a steam gauge panel, with a vacuum artificial horizon and a 2" electric one.   When I bought the G600, I though of taking out one, but then realized that:

1. If I had 2, it may take more time to recognize the problem.  If I had 3, I can see immediately which 2 correlate, and thus see which is bad.  If in IMC, that can save precious time.

2.  There is no fussing with transitions,  just fly the remaining 2 and cross check

3. I realize there is a push to get rid of the vacuum pump, but in my situation I have redundancy in instruments and also have redundancy in what drive them.  

All my back-up instruments are traditional gauges.  The new electronic stuff is real nice, but it is still a computer.  

John Breda

 

Have you ever tried to fly an iPad under the hood?

[Rwsavory]

I have been flying with a Stratus and Foreflight for a couple years now.  When in IMC I push a button to have the split screen display the AI with synthetic vision.  It works fine as a backup.   Here’s an interesting video I found overlaying the SV.

 

[Shadrach]

On 3/16/2019 at 2:41 PM, Rwsavory said:

I have been flying with a Stratus and Foreflight for a couple years now.  When in IMC I push a button to have the split screen display the AI with synthetic vision.  It works fine as a backup.   Here’s an interesting video I found overlaying the SV.

 

Agree. The technology is the same as a G5 or AV-30. I am all for in panel glass but I think it’s ridiculous to “pshaw“ portables as toys. The tech is the same as a panel mount. I’ve been traveling in little airplanes since before I could walk. I remember what passed for IFR equipped in a GA aircraft in the 80s. If time travel were possible I think most of those pilots would be absolutely amazed at the low cost situational awareness current pilots have available to them. Though they might be even more amazed that there are pilots today that dismiss tablets or iPads as toys simply because they’re not screwed to the panel. 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Shadrach

[eman1200]

foolish to rule out ANYTHING that may potentially save your life.

as for not relying on non-panel mounted equipment (also foolish), the synviz I get on my tablet is sourced by the panel mounted GTX345 AHRS data.  still foolish?

[M20F-1968]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Have you ever tried to fly an iPad under the hood?

I have not, however I do use an Ipad mounted to the copilot's yoke for maps, frequencies, etc...

My main point is that at the onset of an emergency, I want to be on a known to be reliable set of back-up instruments as my now primary flight instruments.

That being said, the Ipad can be used for situational awareness like I use it now.  I just want to have a fully operational, tradition AI up and running and not potentially fumbling with non-traditional devices.  Looking rgt, down, etc may also be vertigo inducing.  Not a good time to get into an unusual attitude.

John Breda

[Shadrach]

12 minutes ago, M20F-1968 said:

I have not, however I do use an Ipad mounted to the copilot's yoke for maps, frequencies, etc...

My main point is that at the onset of an emergency, I want to be on a known to be reliable set of back-up instruments as my now primary flight instruments.

That being said, the Ipad can be used for situational awareness like I use it now.  I just want to have a fully operational, tradition AI up and running and not potentially fumbling with non-traditional devices.  Looking rgt, down, etc may also be vertigo inducing.  Not a good time to get into an unusual attitude.

John Breda

If one is running AHRS driven synthetic vision, there’s no fumbling with anything. You have a 3D rendering of your surroundings and your orientation within it.  I appreciate your 3 AI approach. Seems like a redundant set up that that will immediately allow you to spot the rotten egg. My point was that if you’ve not done any hood work with an iPad,  you might be surprised how much SA they provide as a last resort. 

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, Rwsavory said:

I have been flying with a Stratus and Foreflight for a couple years now.  When in IMC I push a button to have the split screen display the AI with synthetic vision.  It works fine as a backup.   Here’s an interesting video I found overlaying the SV.

 

That's really a nice video - and I expect at some point we will have a depiction exactly as that is shown there but that youtube is. post processing.  What I mean is a heads up display showing that SVT view right in front of you as you look through and see the real vision at the same time when they are both present. 

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

That's really a nice video - and I expect at some point we will have a depiction exactly as that is shown there but that youtube is. post processing.  What I mean is a heads up display showing that SVT view right in front of you as you look through and see the real vision at the same time when they are both present. 

Falcon is already doing it with their HUDS. It’s called Falcon Eye and it uses Synthetic Vision combined with an Enhanced Vision System (forward facing IR camara and radar) to project a hybrid view to the pilot in real time.

[carusoam]

It is a real good idea to have your AHARS device solidly attached to the plane...

If it were to come loose in turbulence, using it for a reference would be an extra challenge... 

Some portable devices are better than others...

The portable Dynons can be clipped into the panel...

 

When you have switched to Plan B: in IMC... is your life depending on a piece of Velcro, plastic clips, or certified GPS source/ahars mounted to the plane?

That is Something to consider, if you haven’t already...

I love turbulence (and white water canoeing), except when flying partial panel... the remaining instruments better be working as expected...

When things aren’t working as expected, in a high cognitive work load environment... brain overload won’t ever be appreciated...

 

My M20C with no wing leveler, would enter a spiral within a minute of not having an attitude reference... and get steeper from there...

The direction of the spiral depended on fuel and people load....

The O won’t be any better... I just didn’t ever let it fly free to see what it would do... 

Briefly, if Plan B involves using a portable AHARS device... get it firmly attached the best you can.... Something important will depend on it.

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic or CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[aviatoreb]

33 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Falcon is already doing it with their HUDS. It’s called Falcon Eye and it uses Synthetic Vision combined with an Enhanced Vision System (forward facing IR camara and radar) to project a hybrid view to the pilot in real time.

Right -' I am aware of such systems although I don't know anything specifically about them.  I think they have been in high end aircraft for a little while. and seems like they are recently making it into corporate jets.  And I bet at some point they will become available for all (us), in some form or another.

[toto]

Saw this a year or two ago. If you've got a couple grand lying around, I think it's available now

https://epicoptix.com/epic-eagle/

 

 

 

[bradp]

A few points -

1) what horribly tragic news.  Condolences to the family. 

2) even more tragic because in 2019 a vacuum gyro loss in IMC should be a non event with the availability of backups / eased regulations for placing those backups in the cockpit in a permanent mount solution.  You guys convinced me that the single most important avionics upgrade I could do was ditch the TC and get a backup AI in the panel.  Thank you.   

3) Re portable devices.  You could take a stratus, wedge it on the floor under a seat, under your foot, etc and it will not move in turbulence and still provide ahrs data.  

3a) all the billion people in the world that use an iPhone have an ahrs whether or not they have an aviation apps.  It’s in the compass app.  Mind you it’s 90 degrees offset.  Put the phone on the glareshield and you have a rudimentary AI.  

4) The importance of rigging.   Having flown my plane after paint when it was badly rigged made me appreciate the importance of proper rigging.  I wouldn’t fly the thing in IMC until it was properly rigged for hands off straight and level in smooth air.  If you develop a left spiral in 20 seconds there’s something to get fixed and I wouldn’t consider that an air worthy condition as a  O/O.

5) /rant/ This story a parallel to the recently posted real pilot stories from the air safety institute - “powerless over Paris” where this dude loses electrical power while on approach in IMC.  He describes helmet fire pretty well and an overwhelming sense of resignation to the point where he said he almost instantly decided it was all over and took him a good long while and a lot of effort to come back to reality, deal with the emergency and decide to fly the plane.  

My reaction should have been “what an awful situation, I’m really glad this pilot made it and look what a wonderful job the controllers did to help save his life”.   My actual reaction was I just got more and more angry at this scenario and the purported lessons.  The take home was to put your cell number in the flight plan so ATC can text you if you become NORDO.  The actual lessons were many and much more important.  

Summary: The pilot was totally unprepared for the contingencies needed for night/ IFR flight.   Have a single electrical system - expect to lose it.  What are your backups? An iPad or a battery powered GPS would be a great start.   A $75 transceiver to be able to turn some lights on would be a helpful tool.   Plan B is to land on a highway in the dark in IMC... bollocks.  Don’t know where the general direction of the VFR weather is and you don’t have enough gas to ensure you’ll get there ... come on.  Plan properly.   Resignation to die or try to find an unlit runway with no way of activating the PCL but for the good graces of a nearby airline pilot?  Seriously.  That transceiver is looking mighty useful right now.  Or head straight for the nearest class B/C with the biggest runway and brightest lights (you brought enough gas right?) and maybe mess up someone’s arrival stream and fill out some paperwork... use your command authority as PIC and break all the rules to facilitate a safe outcome.  At least you’re alive in the end.  The whole thing just stunk to high heaven and reinforced this idea of “powelessness”.  The lessons should have been this is how to be a Boy Scout and get prepared.  Instead the guys bacon is saved by the controllers and the controllers relate that this is the unusually happy outcome in the described scenario.  

This game is serious and about survival.  Fly the damned plane.  Be prepared for things to go wrong.  Most importantly know exactly how you react to stress and emergency situations.  Self awareness of ones reaction to acute stress can help prevent or suppress  helmet fire.  Self awareness is like mental halon.   This doesn’t apply to the current tragedy except perhaps the idea about preparedness for failures and redundancy.  Hopefully we can all take the lesson to expect things to go wrong all the time and have ways of mitigating the wrongness.   /end rant/

 

Again condolences to this pilots family and loved ones.   Fly safely with contingency plans. 

Brad

 

[gsxrpilot]

Certainly some of us are more comfortable with the iPad's and other modern portable tech. I don't have any problem shooting an approach using my Stratus and SV on my iPad. But then I'm so comfortable using an iPad that it just seems natural.

Of course with proper planning, the need to go to the iPad should be a very rare event. And to have turbulence at the same time, would be even a more rare event. 

You're likely to either have very low ceilings with stable air, or unstable air, and turbulence, with higher ceilings. You won't likely get both.

Anyway, I'm very comfortable considering my iPad/Stratus the backup of last resort.

[midlifeflyer]

In that situation, I don't even care about AHRS. The typical EFB synth vision display with GPS-based course, track, GS and altitude provides a lot of information even without attitude capability. I used to practice partial panel with my now-ancient 296 and, while still an emergency, the difference was amazing.

[Shadrach]

7 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

In that situation, I don't even care about AHRS. The typical EFB synth vision display with GPS-based course, track, GS and altitude provides a lot of information even without attitude capability. I used to practice partial panel with my now-ancient 296 and, while still an emergency, the difference was amazing.

I remember flying the 296 six pack under the hood back in the day. It was not a problem to aviate and navigate with that small device. I’ve a buddy that still carries one in his flight bag “just in case”.  It was truly a revolutionary device when it came out.

Edited March 17, 2019 by Shadrach

[DXB]

On 3/15/2019 at 10:06 PM, triple8s said:

I have often thought about losing gyros in IMC and there is no reason with the low cost of a decent back indicators we have available today not to have a plan for when primary instruments fail. One thing I wanted to say too is I think it's insane for a person to think a cellphone or iPad 6-pak is anything more than a toy because it may be better than nothing but just barely. There is no reason not to pick up a used dynon D1  or something like that. I know they can be had for way less than 1000$ used and even buying new they are so worth it. A device that send attitude info to an iPad I dont trust much either. I think get a good backup system and also fly it under the hood in vfr with a safety pilot. Sad to lose fellow pilots.

I wouldn't hesitate to use an ipad/status with Foreflight synth vision if I got in trouble. I think of it as a serious backup safety tool above and beyond redundancy in the panel, neither a toy and nor a crutch to skimp on understanding more traditional backups.  This new ASI video illustrates how even the crappy basic GPS function on a smartphone can turn out to be lifesaving. If this guy had an ipad/stratus (or similar) giving him ads-b in and synth vision, he wouldn't have even needed those terrific controllers sending him text messages to get him out alive.  

 

[Ragsf15e]

Obviously IPad with an Ahrs works pretty good as a backup of last resort, and I’d use it if I had to.  I think the AHRS in my gtx345 is pretty accurate & stable.  It’s the Bluetooth connection and occasional ipad/FF restart that would worry me.  I’m gonna get an AV-20S as a backup ADI.  At least it’s purpose built and has internal ahrs.  

One other thing I think about as a backup... if I lose the ADI, get the autopilot on asap if not already.  My stec30A is rate based, which is usually a drawback, but it works just fine without the adi.  Use the heading bug and gentle trim/power adjustment to get on a good instrument approach or better yet, get vfr.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Ragsf15e

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

Obviously IPad with an Ahrs works pretty good as a backup of last resort, and I’d use it if I had to.  I think the AHRS in my gtx345 is pretty accurate & stable.  It’s the Bluetooth connection and occasional ipad/FF restart that would worry me.  I’m gonna get an AV-20S as a backup ADI.  At least it’s purpose built and has internal ahrs.  

One other thing I think about as a backup... if I lose the ADI, get the autopilot on asap if not already.  My stec30A is rate based, which is usually a drawback, but it works just fine without the adi.  Use the heading bug and gentle trim/power adjustment to get on a good instrument approach or better yet, get vfr.

I have the AV20S in my 252 right now. I haven't been super impressed with it. I waiting to give a full PIREP until after I can get it properly calibrated. But at the moment, I wouldn't rely on it at all.

[Ragsf15e]

9 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I have the AV20S in my 252 right now. I haven't been super impressed with it. I waiting to give a full PIREP until after I can get it properly calibrated. But at the moment, I wouldn't rely on it at all.

Good to know, thanks! I did read that the aoa is unrealiable... the adi should just be a function of the internal ahrs. Not good if that’s not solid.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Ragsf15e

[triple8s]

My comment of certain electronic non certified Ipads, cell phones and others being toys has to do with points of failure. I have an Ipad and run flight software on it. I have had this for years and it is great for certain things however, if the ipad gets hot or has a glitch and locks up or the device that feeds the Ipad its ahars data fails or has any problem then you have no back up. The same in my opinion for the standby vac in my Ovation it has two points of failure, the attitude indicator is one and the vac pump is the second, if the attitude indicator fails then 20 vac pumps wont help one bit. One component could fail and render the rest useless. This is why I prefer a separate electric standby AI with battery back up or a mini stand alone AHRS with an internal battery back up. When you have several things that have to work to at the same time to give data you have more chances of having a failure. The synthetic vision is great but if I had to make a personal choice I would always choose the simplest and most reliable to be a backup. I always wondered about the ovation instead of having the second vac pump why didnt they just come with an electric second attitude indicator then you would truly have a second redundant system not reliant on anything that is part of the primary. I think RC Allen or Castleberry made an AI that had a turn/slip tube that was electric and had an internal battery that could legally be used in place of the standard TC which could be used to fill the required TC as per regs. 

Edited March 19, 2019 by triple8s