Got into ice today

[N201MKTurbo]

10 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

no way Jose.  I am saying that with a plane that does not have deice capability that you should not be in potential icing conditions.  Even single engine airplanes with it should probably not be in it unless they got caught with a truly bad forecast.  Never plan to be in the soup at 0c.....

Are you telling me that it does not make sense to do that?

So, how does having a spare engine help with icing? 

[Jim Peace]

3 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

So, how does having a spare engine help with icing? 

It does not,,,,I was not thorough enough in my reply and its hard to answer for all the different airframes out there.  I would not plan to be in any IMC with a twin that does not have FIKI.  Hopefully in the twin you have some sort of redundancy in systems that support the FIKI.  And you also may have that extra horse power to make it through if stuff fails.

[StevenL757]

5 hours ago, Niko182 said:

I don't think he intentionally flew into ice. You're making it sound like he knew there was ice and he flew in it on purpose.

Although I agree with the way he handled the escape, he should have been checking Airmets, Sigmets, and PIREPs to help ascertain a go/no-go decision.  I agree with @Jim Peace that he has no business flight-planning any trip into an area where these conditions exist in an airplane with no ice protection.  I - like many others here - don’t want to read about him the day after the trip, God-forbid something goes wrong.

Steve

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

 

Jim - if you’re worried about your insurance rates, it’s guys like these that are the problem:

https://youtu.be/wIvjaq1rc44

I loved how he introduced a “secondary minimum”.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

 So what part of that approach did you take issue with? I don’t fly a twin Cessna, So I can’t speak to landing with the tailwind component. It seems to me that the only thing he was guilty of was having hoping for circling approach and the corresponding minimums when starting the approach. However, he did request the straight in at the outset. So it seems his plan was to fly the straight in and amend to circling if minimums permitted. Is that a no no? I’m genuinely curious? I’m working on the rating again. I was ready years ago but unforseen circumstances prevented me from taking my ride. This guy seemed confident and competent to me (certainly bolstered by excellent equipment). No doubt he had no margins beyond legal minimums, but it seemed to that there’s little to take issue with in terms of Regs or ADM. I don’t know his background, but I did not see him do anything that freight professionals don’t do every day of the year.

[DXB]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

Jim - if you’re worried about your insurance rates, it’s guys like these that are the problem:

https://youtu.be/wIvjaq1rc44

I loved how he introduced a “secondary minimum”.


 

That's different Chris -that bird as independent lawnmowers on each wing.  Think of it as kinda like a bulletproof, high end riding lawnmower.  That's why piston twins have such a great safety record.

But seriously it's been a tough winter for flying.  As an IFR newb, I've steered clear of anything that would put in visible moisture near or below the freezing level - which has made the plane a hangar queen much of the time.  I still wound up with a puckering experience in unforecast light rain in VMC at 1-2C OAT. Luckily the exposure was very brief, and the ice shed easily by descending just a little.  In absence of forecast icing, I do think folks without FIKI can learn to manage the type of conditions the OP describes, but it certainly takes more careful forethought and judgement than I have at this point.  

[Jim Peace]

4 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

Although I agree with the way he handled the escape, he should have been checking Airmets, Sigmets, and PIREPs to help ascertain a go/no-go decision.  I agree with @Jim Peace that he has no business flight-planning any trip into an area where these conditions exist in an airplane with no ice protection.  I - like many others here - don’t want to read about him the day after the trip, God-forbid something goes wrong.

Steve

I probably would  not have gone just based on the winds in that TAF....let alone the potential to ice up. Put the two together and still go? 

 

[INA201]

I was skiing in Montana in January and ran into icing on the slopes.  One day while we were skiing at approximately 18F our goggles and clothing were picking up a significant amount of rime ice.  It was fairly dense fog with what I am assuming was super cooled water in the clouds.  We were also at 8500 msl + not that the altitude was significant. I’ve never flown in ice in the Mooney but it is truly amazing how much ice is picked up at 30mph.  Certainly knocked out all visibility through the goggles.  I’m afraid of the stuff personally and will only fly with a 100% “out,” solution with even the lowest chance of running into it.  

[kpaul]

3 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

What would keep everyone else from picking up ice?

For the jets going in they just may have had their anti-ice/de-ice systems on, therefor they were not picking up ice, also faster is better in this case for sure.  Ram air temp rise will keep ice off to a certain extent.  In the jet I fly we use Ram Air Temp (RAT) not OAT to determine when to turn on the anti/de-ice.  Oh, if you fly at or above 400 KTAS icing is generally not a problem either

 

[Danb]

You are learning valuable info, as we get experience our decision making hopefully increases. The lack of PIREPS is a problem IMO, when I'm in dicey conditions I always ask and provide PIREPS, at times there the only reliable info we have especially if there numerous ones. Not knowing the TAF's,METAR's,forecast's especially Icing Probability I won't cast an opinion on the decision I'd make for the flight. Posting the Icing info is invaluable in that it spurs a discussion on icing one of the values of Mooneyspace. Brice got valuable experience, it turned out well and probed this discussion, great stuff

[ragedracer1977]

1 hour ago, Jim Peace said:

I probably would  not have gone just based on the winds in that TAF....let alone the potential to ice up. Put the two together and still go? 

 

Winds bother you?  When I see winds over 20kts at the field I drop what I'm doing and go flying if I can.  

Of course, maybe it should actually be guys like you the rest of us should be worried about hurting our rates.  You're afraid to fly in anything but calm winds and CAVU, and the first time you get caught when it isn't... Bad news for the rest of our insurance bills.

 

[Jim Peace]

36 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Winds bother you?  When I see winds over 20kts at the field I drop what I'm doing and go flying if I can.  

Of course, maybe it should actually be guys like you the rest of us should be worried about hurting our rates.  You're afraid to fly in anything but calm winds and CAVU, and the first time you get caught when it isn't... Bad news for the rest of our insurance bills.

 

Oy Vey

[DXB]

As a relative newb, I haven't really been in the habit of giving PIREPS unless asked specifically by the controller, and I've only recently begun to look for them, provide them, and understand their value.  The ability to pull up on the ipad in the air is spectacular, but they are most valuable if people who fly our types of aircraft provide them, which they generally don't.  I found this video really helpful:

https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/online-learning/ask-atc/ask-atc-product-pages/pireps

[Cyril Gibb]

1 hour ago, Jim Peace said:

I probably would  not have gone just based on the winds in that TAF....

Leaving aside the discussion re: icing, other than a bumpy headwind what’s the issue with the TAF winds.  I wouldn’t do much travelling if that amount of wind was a no-go.

You are saying you would scrub a flight on that basis alone?

 

[Jim Peace]

12 minutes ago, Cyril Gibb said:

Leaving aside the discussion re: icing, other than a bumpy headwind what’s the issue with the TAF winds.  I wouldn’t do much travelling if that amount of wind was a no-go.

You are saying you would scrub a flight on that basis alone?

 

28022G31KT ??

nothing wrong with it.....very safe,,,,,probably the safest winds you can be in.

I am understanding that Mooney pilots on this site are immune to weather.....

Its not that prop strikes or engine overhauls cost anything ....just turn it into insurance,,,its all free..

[KLRDMD]

9 minutes ago, Cyril Gibb said:

Leaving aside the discussion re: icing, other than a bumpy headwind what’s the issue with the TAF winds.  I wouldn’t do much travelling if that amount of wind was a no-go. You are saying you would scrub a flight on that basis alone?

I flew Southwest last week due partially to deteriorating conditions but mostly due to forecast wind. 47kts at 12,000 ft, a significant portion of which was headwind. Significant wind direction and velocities at differing altitudes meant a crappy ride and wind still at 38 kts when I would be descending over mountains and less than 1,000 ft above them. No thanks. 'course I'm one of those "old" pilots, not one of those "bold pilots".

[M016576]

2 hours ago, kpaul said:

For the jets going in they just may have had their anti-ice/de-ice systems on, therefor they were not picking up ice, also faster is better in this case for sure.  Ram air temp rise will keep ice off to a certain extent.  In the jet I fly we use Ram Air Temp (RAT) not OAT to determine when to turn on the anti/de-ice.  Oh, if you fly at or above 400 KTAS icing is generally not a problem either

 

This is true- every tactical jet I’ve flow (5 total) says this for icing: “engine anti ice- on.  Speed up.”

[Andy95W]

Is it just me, or does anyone else here wish Jim would either:

1.) stop referring to our airplanes as "lawn mowers with wings"

or 2.) just go ahead and sell his Mooney to someone who actually likes small airplanes?

[peevee]

21 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Is it just me, or does anyone else here wish Jim would either:

1.) stop referring to our airplanes as "lawn mowers with wings"

or 2.) just go ahead and sell his Mooney to someone who actually likes small airplanes?

No.

I think he understands how poorly equipped most ga planes are. OP has defrost, and pitot heat. What if he doesn't have an alternate air door and his filter or induction ices? What happens to his defrost at low power settings on the approach? Do you want to land in those winds with an iced up stall horn? I have pretty redundant systems for ga (dual alt, dual ahrs, dual adcs) and tks and I wouldn't have touched that. Awful lot of invincibility going around here today. There's a lot more to ice than keeping the airframe clean.

Edited February 18, 2019 by peevee

[Jim Peace]

18 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Is it just me, or does anyone else here wish Jim would either:

1.) stop referring to our airplanes as "lawn mowers with wings"

or 2.) just go ahead and sell his Mooney to someone who actually likes small airplanes?

Small planes are my passion...I fly the big stuff so as to afford the small stuff.  Just get tired of reading about senseless deaths and injuries......if only someone would have brought up the fact to them that they are not above Mother Natures power in a Mooney.

[bradp]

I canned a flight yesterday for potential for multiple freezing layers (temp inversion) and freezing rain with deteriorating weather and ppt moving in if I to run late.  Too much pressure and not enough margin.  The spork is a useful app though.  

Without icing equipment winter flying often becomes like summer flying in thunderstorm season - you become a VFR see and avoid pilot and can often get get more utility out of your plane that way.  

If there is no icing airmet, icing prob / potential is nil to low and no pireps I would have done Brice’s flight with a few caveats.  1) examine skewt to know where the tops and bottoms are and know where it’s not freezing  2) have a plan A B and C to escape icing if encountered and 3) be willing to tell not ask ATC  what is needed if inadvertant icing is encountered (the PIC role) and be willing to say unable if you feel ATC will put you in a bad situation.  I would not have dont Brices flight if let’s say it took me over the mountainous terrain 50 nm east of SAN near the JLI VOR.  Risk mitigation is more than the clouds...

I’ve been in 0-2C IMC enough to know that ice is difficult to predict and is where you find it.  Having contingency plans to not become an emergency/lawn dart etc is critical.  I don’t want to be in a situation where I need to figure out my planes aerodynamics.  

 

 

 

 

[Jim Peace]

22 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Is it just me, or does anyone else here wish Jim would either:

1.) stop referring to our airplanes as "lawn mowers with wings"

I love Mooneys and especially my own. Otherwise I would not have put 40k into the panel on a 25k airplane.  But as much as I love it and single engine airplanes it was like putting lipstick on a pig.  It is fun and you have to respect the fact that it is more dangerous than a motorcycle and should not be flying in high winds or IMC at zero c temps.  Especially not both at the same time.

My own plane is a lawnmower with wings and I have Garmin everything.  Perhaps if I went with Aspens I would be able to fly in the ice.

 

[Andy95W]

5 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

Small planes are my passion...I fly the big stuff so as to afford the small stuff.  Just get tired of reading about senseless deaths and injuries......if only someone would have brought up the fact to them that they are not above Mother Natures power in a Mooney.

I agree with the sentiment behind your posts.  But I will continue to maintain that "lawnmowers with wings" is pretty disrespectful of others here who aren't blessed to fly transport category jets like you and I fly.

[peevee]

2 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

I love Mooneys and especially my own. Otherwise I would not have put 40k into the panel on a 25k airplane.  But as much as I love it and single engine airplanes it was like putting lipstick on a pig.  It is fun and you have to respect the fact that it is more dangerous than a motorcycle and should not be flying in high winds or IMC at zero c temps.  Especially not both at the same time.

My own plane is a lawnmower with wings and I have Garmin everything.  Perhaps if I went with Aspens I would be able to fly in the ice.

 

Aspens are great. One adahrs and a histroy of failing screens in flight, what could possibly go wrong?

Edited February 18, 2019 by peevee

[Jim Peace]

6 minutes ago, bradp said:

I canned a flight yesterday for potential for multiple freezing layers (temp inversion) and freezing rain with deteriorating weather and ppt moving in if I to run late.  Too much pressure and not enough margin. 

Nice Job.....

Unfortunately many pilots on here would consider you to be a pussy because you do have an instrument rating and that makes you invincible.

[M016576]

11 minutes ago, peevee said:

Aspens are great. One adahrs and a histroy of failing screens in flight, what could possibly go wrong?

Ask Garmin

 

my aspen PFD has proven to be far more reliable over the past 5 years than the KI-256 it replaced.  

 

Edited February 18, 2019 by M016576