mooney m20 e chaparral for sale $74,500 1578TTAF one of a kind

[EricJ]

Looks like a very nice airplane, but it'll be expensive to update the panel.   As has been pointed out, it looks like some of the cleanup went to making it pretty rather than compliant with ADs, which always raises concern.

Could be really nice for the right person willing to go through it and do some updates.

[skippyf16]

Soooo has the AD been dealt with?  Still for sale?  Logs available to email?

Thanks,

Jason

[NJMac]

Soooo has the AD been dealt with?  Still for sale?  Logs available to email?
Thanks,
Jason

If you want a nice E in this price range, I'll sell you mine.

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[skippyf16]

He called to be a dick after I emailed about what vref said its worth, says he sold it for >70k. 

[salty]

I hope it’s true. That way the value of all our planes goes up. 

[ArtVandelay]

I hope it’s true. That way the value of all our planes goes up. 

I think that’s true already, I bought my plane in 14, and I religiously kept track of the prices of the J model and they are about 20% higher now in my estimation. Garrison would probably have more educated opinion.


Tom

[gsxrpilot]

I agree that VREF is worthless.

[smccray]

1 hour ago, skippyf16 said:

He called to be a dick after I emailed about what vref said its worth, says he sold it for >70k. 

I strongly encourage you to do some research on the limitations of VREF.  If you're looking at a series of airplanes that are all essentially the same (e.g. 2010 SR22).  When you start looking at aircraft that are >30 years old with wide variation it starts getting pretty challenging.  Add to that, the value of some changes differs between buyers.  For example, if you have to have an airplane with a G500 txi, and two airplanes are exactly the same except for the glass panel, the plane with the glass is worth more than 50% of the upgrade cost which is the traditional back of the envelope ROI of avionics upgrades.

VREF is a hammer.  Use it if you want, but VREF misses the mark regularly- and you'll end up with a plane that has significant deferred maintenance.  What does VREF show for resealed tanks?  That's a $10K bill.  New gear pucks?  That's $2K.  Recently replaced engine accessories?  Recently overhauled king equipment in the panel?  Recently overhauled autopilot servos?  Recently replaced fuel servos?  Your choice if you want to buy a plane that's cheap according to VREF, but it's likely you're buying a plane that will end up costing you more.  Look at the relative value of some of the updates on upgrades- it doesn't make sense.  Use VREF to hit the nail, but the evaluation process for old airplanes isn't that simple.

[skippyf16]

Yea I get all that.  No way that plane was worth 70k

 

[gsxrpilot]

Obviously we don't know the details of your conversation with the seller, and he was already a dick to @M20Doc which said something about him. But I'd also be less than enthused about anyone questioning my valuation of any Mooney I was selling.

I'd be happy for someone to call me and make an offer, no matter how low it was. And if you want to qualify the offer add something like, "I'm having to finance the plane and my lender will only lend based on VREF so this is all I can offer." Or make up any reason you like. But don't tell me that I've mis-valued my airplane... even if I have.

If he sold it for something north of $70K, obviously it was worth that to someone... and as a seller, you only need that one person. 

[Davidv]

I’m sorry if I’m being repetitive, but every aircraft is worth exactly....drumroll please

Whatever someone else is willing to pay for it.

if you think a plane is overvalued, terrific, don’t buy it.

[salty]

This isn’t meant to disrespect the seller of this plane, but does “nearly original” mean something to some buyers? I don’t think the avionics in this plane were at all original, but they are very old. Is 60 year old cloth upholstery an attraction for some?

this is not meant to be sarcastic. I’m really interested if there is a market out there. 

[smccray]

1 hour ago, skippyf16 said:

Yea I get all that.  No way that plane was worth 70k

 

There’s a difference between appraised fair market value and value to a particular buyer. Who knows- maybe the buyer grew up flying the back seat of the plane and he had the chance to buy his father’s plane. 

If you hang your hat on VREF to tell a seller he’s overpriced...good luck. 

[steingar]

I thought is was a pretty airplane, but I had just seen pal's sell for a bunch less.  His had a better panel (though no ADSB), and he had restored his interior (after finishing his Lanceair).  Were I going to pay that for an Echo I'd want ADSB, a seriously better panel and a lack of sheepskin.  I don't mind paying a premium price, but I expect a premium product.

Personally, I think someone overspent on their Mooney.  But tis America, and everyone is free to do that.

Edited February 13, 2019 by steingar

[BKlott]

6 hours ago, salty said:

This isn’t meant to disrespect the seller of this plane, but does “nearly original” mean something to some buyers? I don’t think the avionics in this plane were at all original, but they are very old. Is 60 year old cloth upholstery an attraction for some?

this is not meant to be sarcastic. I’m really interested if there is a market out there. 

I think that, in some cases, having an airplane in it’s original configuration is important to some buyers. Modifications which alter the appearance on the airplane, even though it improves “performance”, may turn off some buyers who don’t like the modified looks.

Take a Globe/Temco Swift, for example. These have been highly modified with numerous changes to engines, instrument panels, cowlings, wing tips, canopy structure and more. Some have been changed from control wheels to sticks. The vast majority of these changes improves the performance of the Swift but for a guy who appreciates classic airplanes and wants his to be original, a modified Swift has been ruined as far as he is concerned.

With Mooneys, the speed slope windscreen reduces drag, increases speed and probably reduces noise as well. All good stuff but it does limit access behind the instrument panel and it does alter the appearance of the airplane. Individual tastes may or may not like the altered appearance.

Same goes for some of the newer propellor spinners that are showing up on airplanes with constant speed props. In some photos they appear oversized and (in my mind) kind of silly compared to the original spinners. More streamlined? Sure looks that way but I don’t personally like the looks. Other guys probably don’t have a problem with it.

When it comes to avionics, paint and interior, “nearly original” is typically not very desirable.

Edited February 14, 2019 by BKlott

[flight2000]

This is a head scratcher: https://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=9306V  

Brian

[Bravoman]

8 hours ago, rbridges said:

I thought about that too. There is a Pontiac GNX from the 80's that's expected to sell for 6 figures. Something like 13 miles and all original.  If people collected planes like cars, maybe, but people generally fly planes and not store them. Having an all original plane is not an upsell for me.  

The one thing I like about all original, particularly paint, is that it is indicative of no damage history, something that is important to me. . But I can see the other side of the coin as well.

[Marauder]

3 hours ago, flight2000 said:

This is a head scratcher: https://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=9306V  

Brian

I think the previous owner cancelled the registration based on the sale of the plane. The new owner will need to register it and I suspect the delay of reporting the new registration is probably due to the government shutdown. Purge date suggests it will stay assigned to this plane.

[kmyfm20s]

I was off Mooneyspace for a while and missed this post. Seems like some day people are going to value an old outdated plane in exceptional condition like they do classic cars. Only so many gems out there left, this plane looks amazing! Unfortunately the seller has proved himself as a person most of us would not want to share a beer with in our wife beaters and talk airplane with.

[carusoam]

When it comes to pricing machines...

1) What will the market allow?

2) If the market you are in won’t allow a high price... move or just advertise the plane to a different market... (think housing prices in San Francisco, except those properties can’t be moved)

3) Very often around MS... somebody will type in ‘that plane isn’t worth that price...’

4) The price that counts... is what the buyer intends to spend...

5) Some people get offended for various reasons while discussing prices...

6) If you are looking to buy a plane... high priced planes can feel offensive.  Hold that feeling for a second... 

7) If you are looking to sell a plane quickly... high prices are not the best way to do it.  There is balance to the system...

8) If you are going to negotiate on the price of the plane... it is truly best done privately.

9) determining the value of a machine for yourself.... that is a tough one...

10) We have one advantage when buying a plane... we can compare two very similar planes to each other... select the lower price, or put an offer on the preferred plane... (an offer is the official start of negotiations)

11) There are a few things that are easy to judge...

• Model
• year
• hours
• paint
• interior
• engine hours

Those get you in the ball park quickly...

After that is a tremendous list of updates...

• speed mods
• panel layout
• instruments
• newer paint
• newer interior
• engine / prop modifications

The update list can easily cost 100amu to have operational.  About twice what the airframe cost is.

11.5) The hard part to judge is the quality of the machine and modifications...

• The overall quality
• Quality of all the individual items... what shop did this, where did these materials come from, and is everything connected properly.
• what damage history does it have, who tended to it, how?
• What string of MSC annuals does it have...
• How many PPIs do you want to be part of..?

12) There is plenty of old thinking involved.... something like... if I put  50amu into the panel of a plane that is worth 50amu...  i’ll Never get my money back out of it...  (not always true... a good salesman knows how to match educated buyers and sellers with each other) educated buyers know where to find the good salesman...

13) Really old thinking... if you lived through the 70s...  you could buy a machine... use it for a few years and then sell it for more than you paid for it... sounds impossible doesn’t it...

14) Inflation was a magical force that allowed people to pay up for things, thinking that they would increase in value.... on the surface this looks great... in practice, it is a bit different... when deflation follows along, the financial disaster follows with it....

15) Often, MSers discuss prices of other people’s property... a simple ‘I wouldn’t pay that’ or ‘that isn’t worth that’... they are opinions... everyone is allowed to have and share opinions...

16) To be friendly, some opinions are best to be kept private... (Mom’s social rules on public discussion of money, God, and politics may apply)

17) MS has a complete rainbow of people... with varying skills...

• Mechanical skills
• flying skills
• ownership skills
• marketing and sales skills
• financial skills
• Other really interesting skills... medical, legal, engineering...

18) MSers with all those life skills, the freedom to buy a plane comes at very different stages of life...  MooneySpace’s youngest Mooney owner is in his 20s... oldest is in his 80s... Some had to sell the plane for financial reasons... Some come back after the kids have left home....

19) It actually takes skill and effort to sell machines... Finding the right type of buyer and explaining that you have the right machine for his needs...

20) If you are buying a bare bones plane... things just got easy... If you are selling a highly modified machine you will tire quickly from all the tire kickers.... there are always tirekickers...

21) The best resource available to put a price on a Mooney has always been Jimmy at AAA.  It comes from building a database selling so many Mooneys every year, for decades... I have known of Jimmy and David selling Mooneys since the last millennium...

If it were easy and/or low cost... AAA would have a tougher challenge selling planes...

22) Restoring a plane to usable condition is one thing...

23) Restoring a plane to like new condition is astronomical...

24) the cool thing is... Somewhere there is a person that is looking for a fully restored Mooney in like new condition.... we have seen at least two planes this year.... (that person probably works in high technology in the valley...)

25) the cooler thing is... there are a few MSers that have completely restored their own Mooney to better than new condition...

That takes a modicum of financial sense... and a great spouse!   

 

A PP’s list of Things to think about if plane pricing has you feeling down...

Best regards,

-a-

[flight2000]

6 hours ago, Marauder said:

I think the previous owner cancelled the registration based on the sale of the plane. The new owner will need to register it and I suspect the delay of reporting the new registration is probably due to the government shutdown. Purge date suggests it will stay assigned to this plane.

Except that it was cancelled back in January 2018.  First post here was November.  Only thing I can think of is he sent it in prematurely in January thinking the aircraft was sold and then the buyer backed out...that would suck because you've now grounded the plane until a new registration arrives.  Maybe that's the reason for the hold?

I don't know, just seemed really strange, that's all. 

Cheers,

Brian

[Marauder]

I’m sorry if I’m being repetitive, but every aircraft is worth exactly....drumroll please
Whatever someone else is willing to pay for it.
if you think a plane is overvalued, terrific, don’t buy it.

Thank you. I never understood why someone who owns an airplane would say “that plane is overpriced”. Unless you are Ken doing the “plane of the week” thing, you should all hope our plane’s values go up.



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[Jerry Pressley]

Would anyone be concerned about how long it had been sitting out of annual in order to be such a low time airftame after 50 years?

[Jerry Pressley]

Ran the florida (buyer).   seems there is a legal problem with condition of ac.  Dont know details.  Only taking about 6 weeks now to register now. 13 months may be a bit longer than normal eh?

[Marauder]

Would anyone be concerned about how long it had been sitting out of annual in order to be such a low time airftame after 50 years?

I would be if it wasn’t maintained. A buddy of mine bought a 79 J that had 1300 original hours on it. It didn’t fly a lot of but had a MSC annual done every year. The value of low hours really showed up in the wear and tear items (like seat rollers).


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