Kwixdraw Posted May 21, 2011 Report Posted May 21, 2011 Anyone have an idea how many of these are still hanging around. I heard there were a bunch, maybe the bulk of them that got caught in the hurricane in Florida a few years back. I've got a crazy idea floating around and trying to see how doable it might be. Quote
sleepingsquirrel Posted May 21, 2011 Report Posted May 21, 2011 This link states only ten left flying. http://mooneypfm.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=67&Itemid=72 Quote
Geoff Posted May 21, 2011 Report Posted May 21, 2011 I bet it would be hard to convince Porsche or now VW to get back in the aviation engine business. If it could be done with the current crop of 997 engines running MOGAS. Mooney could have a potential solution for UL AVGAS and start selling some planes. Does anyone know if the original PFM was MOGAS capable? There I go dreaming again. Quote
Kwixdraw Posted May 21, 2011 Author Report Posted May 21, 2011 Anyone interested in a turbine powered Mooney? I was thinking that RR300 might be just the ticket. Quote
N513ZM Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 Quote: Kwixdraw Anyone interested in a turbine powered Mooney? I was thinking that RR300 might be just the ticket. Quote
jetdriven Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 Suposedly the only thing to do when the porsche engine runs out is convert it to an Ovation engine, but it still has the lower gross weight, so you got yourself a less capable Ovation, for more money. Man I bet those owners of those PFM Mooneys were pissed when Porsche pulled out. Quote
Geoff Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 PFM 3200 were certified to run on MOGAS .... heavy, but at least it is certified, unlike the Deltahawk or any of the current NL fuel alternatives. Interesting that they never tried marketing through Cessna, Piper, Beechcraft and Mooney. Volumes are small in aviation already, why limit yourself to only one brand? PFM 3200 Engine Details Model Name Porsche Aviation Engine PFM 3200 (Models N01, N02 and N03) T03 certified Turbocharged Version Part number prefix 933 Number Built About 80 Build Dates 1981-1990 (Approx.) Mooney PFM 3200 N03 engine used in Mooney M20L Description The engine was developed by Porsche in 1981. Development based on the engine used in the Porsche "911" sports car Operation Single control lever Automatic mixture and pitch control Cylinders 6-cylinder boxer engine 2 overhead camshafts, gear driven Displacement 3164cc Performance N01 Max Power 209 hp (156 kW) at 5300 rpm Max Economy 167 hp (125 kW) at 5000 rpm N03 Max Power 217 hp (162 kW) at 5300 rpm Max Economy 174 hp (130 kW) at 5000 rpm Bore 95.5 mm Stroke 74.4 mm Compression N01 9.2:1, N03 10.5:1, T03 8.5:1. Fuel System Bosch K-Jetronic Automatic correction mixture for "best power" and "best economy" Two electric fuel pumps plus emergency fuel pump Ignition Two ignition systems Electronic control and trigger. Magneti Marelli. Spark Plugs Bosch WB 4 DTC Lubrication Dry sump lubrication Oil tank capacity 6.7l, oil capacity 12.7l. Power Supply Two generators, mechanically driven independently 24 V, 35 V, 55 V or 70 A Gearbox Magnesium casing Torsional vibration dampers between the crank shaft and gears 0.442:1 reduction Fuel AVGAS 100 LL (or MOGAS DIN 51600 S for PFM3200N01) Oil Mobil 1. Aviation oil not approved System weight 200 Kg including injection, ignition system, exhaust system, oil cooler and tank 172 Kg basic engine weight Dimensions 973 mm / 854 mm / 610 mm (without exhaust) Length: Width: Height Exhaust System Exhaust pipes (exhaust gas collector) Silencers and heated air heat exchanger Remark Very quiet and economical flight engine even as a turbo version. 75.4dB on takeoff. Certification FAA Type Certificate (TC) No. E23NE issued August 30 1985 TC Applicant Dr Ing.h.c.F. Porsche Aktiengesellschaft, Weissach Germany Quote
jetdriven Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 I think Porsche surrendered the TC to the FAA. Quote
Piloto Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 The Porsche engine was not as efficient and reliable as the Lyc. IO-360. It was also heavier and required water cooling. I think Porsche would have been better off putting Lycoming engines on their cars than Porsche on planes. After all a car that has an aircraft engine has a more sexy appeal than a plane that uses a car engine. José Quote
DaV8or Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 Quote: Kwixdraw Anyone interested in a turbine powered Mooney? I was thinking that RR300 might be just the ticket. Quote
DaV8or Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 Quote: Geoff Interesting that they never tried marketing through Cessna, Piper, Beechcraft and Mooney. Volumes are small in aviation already, why limit yourself to only one brand? Quote
Geoff Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 Jose, Agree, but that was 1985 when the price of AVGAS was $2 and there was no threat to supply. I'm just saying the tech is there and certified if anyone had the balls to pick it up as a starting place and improve on it. Apparently, the engine installation suffered weight and drag due to the Germans insisting on a fan cooling arragement. Fixing this installation error would add performance and reduce weight. Porsche also makes turbo engines which would further enhance performance adding back the weight and heat penalty of course... Quote
rorythedog Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 i'd like to see a nuclear powered mooney. it would probably be very quiet. it seems to work well in submarines. Quote
Geoff Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 HA! I think they both have about the same probability of happening!! Quote
Kwixdraw Posted May 22, 2011 Author Report Posted May 22, 2011 Quote: DaV8or Lots of people are interested, just no one is willing to pay. Those engines cost around $500,000 and so there just aren't enough people out there willing to spend around $1m for a four passenger plane. If there were just a way to make turbines cheaper... Quote
N513ZM Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 Quote: Kwixdraw Lots of people are interested, just no one is willing to pay. Those engines cost around $500,000 and so there just aren't enough people out there willing to spend around $1m for a four passenger plane. If there were just a way to make turbines cheaper... Quote
N513ZM Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 Quote: Piloto The Porsche engine was not as efficient and reliable as the Lyc. IO-360. It was also heavier and required water cooling. I think Porsche would have been better off putting Lycoming engines on their cars than Porsche on planes. After all a car that has an aircraft engine has a more sexy appeal than a plane that uses a car engine. José Quote
MooneyPFM Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 There are many myths that continue to be circulated about the PFM Mooney. For example it is air cooled. It is a delightful and simple plane to fly and very reliable and economical. Its performa nce should be compared wit h a 201 and not a 252. The owners loved the planes and were very loyal to the brand. There are many still flying despite the attempts to remove the engines. For those interested, there are court actions still running regarding the way in which Porsche departed the aviation aircraft industry. See: http://dockets.justia.com/docket/florida/flmdce/8:2008cv00392/210779/ The latest summary judgement in Jan 2011 has seen fit to continue the case to trial on grounds of alleged "fraud, negligence, conspiracy and unjust, enrichment." ..."a jury might reasonably find that Porsche established a duty to either support the existing engine or to convert the Plaintiffs engines" See: http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/florida/flmdce/8:2008cv00392/210779/276/ If the engine was available today it would still be suitable to use in Mooney aircraft and still be the most advanced GA engine. And the N01 version (not used in the PFM) would run on Mogas. Robert www.mooneypfm.com Quote
scottfromiowa Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 I believe Jim is correct. Under the cowl there was an engine cooling fan (belt driven) that robbed power reducing the performance. The combined throttle/mixture one handle operation was a REAL benefit. They were REALLY expensive and didn't sell well because they didn't outperform the J...Again my recollections on reading previous articles about the Porsche powered PFM. The discussion was "buy a J and a 911" vs. the PFM and STILL have money in the bank...back in the day. Quote
Shadrach Posted May 22, 2011 Report Posted May 22, 2011 Quote: JimR Please expound on this. I've always thought that the PFM was one of the cleanest Mooney designs... Almost all Mooneys are air cooled (with a very few exceptions), as far as cooling drag, the PFM seems to have smaller inlets and "appears" more aerodynamic than any Mooney cowl design I've seen. What's the reason for the extra drag? Quote
scottfromiowa Posted May 23, 2011 Report Posted May 23, 2011 Gary, If you know details I would like to hear them so I can get the whole story. There were several seperate articles about this in MOA magazine (back issues can still be read online). I believe that Porsche, just like NARCO had an uncompetitive (based on price/performance PFM) product. Decided to get out with minimal exposure (units in field to support) and the Hurricane further minimized the exposure (destroying airframes). I believe it became an insurance issue for the airframes impacted by the hurricane and the old was it wind/water damage...lawyers got involved etc. Porsche made a business decision to cut and run. (instead of supporting remaining airframes) It's rotten, but it was their decision. Lawyers will continue to battle to make the owners whole bleeding the little guy (owners) more than the insurance companies and Porsche. I believe Mod Works ceased to exist as a result of the hurricane. How did Mod Works "Abandon the owners"? I suppose if they were alredy paid by Porsche for the work this is somewhat true, but If an "Act of God" wipes out your business and you are not adequately insured, what do you do? Poor business planning maybe but not abandoning in my opinion based on what I've read. Enlighten me. Quote
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