Wanted: The perfect startup for a TSIO-360

[NicoN]

I am pretty new to Mooneys and also the TSIO-360.

To be honest: I did not (yet) have any problems starting the engine.

Also , I did not a hot start situation. Hot starting techniques were discussed in an earlier thread.

my problem is definitely not  bringing my engine into life.

It's simply the question if there is a method to safely start the engine without a more or less temporary RPM-increase.

I follow strictly the POH, which says:

- Mixture full rich

- Throttle ~ 1/4inch

- Priming 3-5 seconds depending on OAT

-  crank the engine immediately

My experience is, that the engine fires always immediately, but then tries to die again.

Increasing the priming to 5-7 seconds lowers the risk of the engine dying again, but I still need to intermittently keep priming after the engine has fired first. With this method, I never needed a second crank so far.

In the consequence I have the choice to encounter the engine dying or seeing a massive RPM-increase about 5 seconds after the engine has fired.

Of course, I pull back the throttle immediately to IDLE.

This simply sounds not good.

I learnt, that the first seconds can be the hardest time in the engine life. It sounds logic, that in the first seconds there cannot be sufficient lubrication. There are rumours that starting an engine at low temperatures without pre-heating has the the same wear than 50 or 100 hours of flying.

So, is there a "Gold-standard" to start without this excessive RPM-increase?

 

Thank you and sorry for my english :-(

[gsxrpilot]

I think you're doing it exactly right. 

It always takes me an additional shot of prime to get it running. It's convenient that the prime switch is right by the throttle. 

[milotron]

Like @gsxrpilot said, you are pretty much there.

During shutdown, I leave the throttle at 1000rpm and go to lean cut off to stop the engine, and leave the throttle there.

Starting procedure is then:

Full rich.

Don't touch the throttle.

2-8 second of prime. What 3-4 seconds.This time delay seems to allows fuel to vapourize in the intake/cylinders a  bit more, but is not necessary.

Crank ignition and starts, give it some prime if it stumbles until it catches. Lean to peak rpm once it is stable.

Works every time with no high RPM drama.

 

iain

 

[FloridaMan]

Does the TSIO360 have the same fuel setup as the TSIO520 for hot starts? If so, hot starts should be made easy if you understand the following. When the engine sits when hot, the fuel will vaporize inside of the fuel lines. If the mixture is all the way off and you run the fuel pump, the fuel and vapor within the lines will return to the tank. This clears the fuel from the lines and cools them too, to keep the new fuel from vaporizing as well. You can hear the fuel pump changing speed with the varying load from air and fuel. One the sound of the fuel pump stabilizes, start the engine as normal. 

[pwhicks]

2 hours ago, milotron said:

Like @gsxrpilot said, you are pretty much there.

During shutdown, I leave the throttle at 1000rpm and go to lean cut off to stop the engine, and leave the throttle there.

Starting procedure is then:

Full rich.

Don't touch the throttle.

2-8 second of prime. What 3-4 seconds.This time delay seems to allows fuel to vapourize in the intake/cylinders a  bit more, but is not necessary.

Crank ignition and starts, give it some prime if it stumbles until it catches. Lean to peak rpm once it is stable.

Works every time with no high RPM drama.

 

iain

 

^^^^^^  This shutdown process works very well.  I do the same every time except I settle to about 1200 RPM when I shut down. 

Cold Starts are always simple after a 3-5 second mixture full rich Boost. 

Hot Starts are also very simple with only having to smoothly add mixture when it fires.  

[carusoam]

Nico,

You have hit on the finer parts of really knowing your engine....

 

Helps to know where the throttle setting is for 1,000 rpm...

When shutting down,  many MSers set the throttle at 1krpm for shut down... pull the mixture, watch for rpm rise.... all good.

 

With a Continental engine the priming function (may) requires moving the throttle forwards... messing with the plan to leave it alone.  The TSIO360 has a special primer function... delivers fuel to a different location...

with an O360 priming is done with the throttle control... a few pumps depending on OAT...

Depending on how old your procedure is... some procedures say push the throttle in 1/4...   some say 1/4”....

 

With a vernier controlled throttle it is pretty easy to set the throttle by counting rotations... one for warm OATs. Two for cold OATs...  cold OATs, expect to add some additional primer fuel until the engine warms a bit and settles in...

 

The target of 1krpm comes from spreading oil around inside the engine.  Somebody decided oil splashes at 1000, and may not splash well enough below 1000...

In the end it takes some experimentation...

Too little throttle, engine doesn’t start...

Too much throttle, engine rpms go too high...

Realistically, Nobody is wearing out the bottom end of their Mooney engine... cylinders wear, Lycoming cams can’t get enough lubrication...

 

in the end, get to know your throttle positions and experiment with what works in a really fine way...

was that one turn or one and a 1/4 turn that worked best at 50°F...?

 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[jlunseth]

Over on the left is your red High Boost button.  It should be covered by a guard that prevents the pilot from unintentionally switching the high boost on.  Don’t move it, leave the guard in place where it is.  When the engine starts to die, briefly push the top corner of the high boost with the guard in place.  In this configuration it acts as an “instant on - instant off” button.  Hold that corner down while the engine comes to life and accelerates, then let it go.  With a little familiarity you will figure out how long to hold the button.  When you let go (stop pushing) the button, it instantly switches off.  But by now the mechanical fuel pump and the lines are full, don’t have material vapor bubbles, so the mechanical pump keeps the engine going just fine.

The problem is that the lines and mechanical pump drain when the engine is stopped.  The primer button only allows the engine to run for the amount of prime you had put in, and if that is not enough to fill the lines the eninge dies again.  The high boost in “momentary” mode, supplies the engine with all the fuel it needs until the mechanical pump is fully functioning.

Works. Every. Single. Time.  Don’t change your technique for hot start or for high altitude, or for cold.  this works in all three, although in super cold weather it may take a couple of tries to get the engine running.

Edited June 18, 2018 by jlunseth

[NicoN]

Okay, thank you. i will give all the methods a try.

 

[gsxrpilot]

On 6/18/2018 at 10:13 PM, jlunseth said:

Over on the left is your red High Boost button.  It should be covered by a guard that prevents the pilot from unintentionally switching the high boost on.  Don’t move it, leave the guard in place where it is.  When the engine starts to die, briefly push the top corner of the high boost with the guard in place.  In this configuration it acts as an “instant on - instant off” button.  Hold that corner down while the engine comes to life and accelerates, then let it go.  With a little familiarity you will figure out how long to hold the button.  When you let go (stop pushing) the button, it instantly switches off.  But by now the mechanical fuel pump and the lines are full, don’t have material vapor bubbles, so the mechanical pump keeps the engine going just fine.

The problem is that the lines and mechanical pump drain when the engine is stopped.  The primer button only allows the engine to run for the amount of prime you had put in, and if that is not enough to fill the lines the eninge dies again.  The high boost in “momentary” mode, supplies the engine with all the fuel it needs until the mechanical pump is fully functioning.

Works. Every. Single. Time.  Don’t change your technique for hot start or for high altitude, or for cold.  this works in all three, although in super cold weather it may take a couple of tries to get the engine running.

I'm a bit confused how this is different than using the prime switch? The behavior seems to be exactly the same. Maybe you are using 3 seconds of High boost vs my 5 sec of Prime? The result seems to be exactly the same? Just asking.

[DonMuncy]

It is my understanding that the boost and the primer squirt fuel at a different spot in the induction system.  I forget which is which. The amount of fuel is the same and the results are very similar but slightly different. I use high boost for about 5 seconds on all starts except for a start within a very few minutes of shutdown. I then use primer for a varying length of time, depending on temperature. Usually a little longer than indicated in the POH. This works for me.

In my limited experience, if the Continental doesn't want to start, it needs more fuel.

[gsxrpilot]

Interesting... I've never used anything but Prime to start the plane on the ground. And it's never failed to start hot or cold.

I've used the Low Boost pump for restarts at high altitude after running a tank dry. I've never used the High Boost as long as I've owned the plane.

[carusoam]

Hi vs Lo for the IO550...

Delivers fuel a 3X the rate...

Five seconds of boost vs counting 15 seconds...

Lo is needed for cold days when the extra boost is needed to keep things running during warm up.

Hi is used in the event the mechanical fuel pump goes on hiatus...

 

The TSIO360 gets the different fuel delivery location with the prime switch.  Will be helpful to know more about how and where this works... an electric valve opening?

 

Best regards,

-a-

[DanM20C]

On 6/18/2018 at 4:13 PM, jlunseth said:

Over on the left is your red High Boost button.  It should be covered by a guard that prevents the pilot from unintentionally switching the high boost on.  Don’t move it, leave the guard in place where it is.  When the engine starts to die, briefly push the top corner of the high boost with the guard in place.  In this configuration it acts as an “instant on - instant off” button.  Hold that corner down while the engine comes to life and accelerates, then let it go.  With a little familiarity you will figure out how long to hold the button.  When you let go (stop pushing) the button, it instantly switches off.  But by now the mechanical fuel pump and the lines are full, don’t have material vapor bubbles, so the mechanical pump keeps the engine going just fine.

I tried this method yesterday.  It did work much better than using the primer after initial start. 

3 hours ago, carusoam said:

The TSIO360 gets the different fuel delivery location with the prime switch.  Will be helpful to know more about how and where this works... an electric valve opening?

I believe the primer runs the boost pump and activates a solenoid to feed fuel to the primer circuit.  There are two primer nozzles (one each side) that sprays fuel down the intakes.  So the fuel distribution to each cylinder is probably poor.  The engine fires but doesn't run smooth until the mechanical pump can get fuel to all 6 injectors.  This is why jlunseth's method works better. The boost pump can supply fuel to the injectors quicker, initially, than the mechanical pump.

Cheers,

Dan

[Guest]

I start all fuel injected engines the same way.  Throttle wide open, mixture full rich, fuel pump to High, on TCM engines or ON for Lycoming engines, turn off when you see a flow indication, throttle to idle, crank engine, little need for busy fingers.

When you last shut down the engine it was Hot, all fuel will evaporate out of lines and the engine pump.  Using the prime circuit does nothing to fill the lines and injector nozzles, hence they sputter and stumble until the lines fill up.  Priming the engine with the pump fills all of the lines for a smoother start.

Clarence

[jlunseth]

I am out of town, flying actually, and can’t respond at length, but the High Boost button does a better job of filling the lines than the primer, at least that is what my engine seems to think.  The high boost was nifty once I discovered it, and I have not had a failed start since then under any conditions including Leadville and -20F when the line guy forgot to plug the plane in.  As I said, that one takes a couple of tries, but it will start with a little hi boost help.

[NicoN]

I am a Little confused with These in Detail different methods. But they seem to have in common the philosophy that a cold engine has empty fuel lines when it Comes cold out of the Hangar.

Let me try to summarize:

Priming the engine provides fuel "spray" for the cylinders but only enough for the first 2-3 seconds. Then the "prime" fuel is away and the engine driven pump is still not ready delivering fuel as it should, yet. Right? That's the time, the engine starts dying from fuel starvation and you have bring fuel to  the engine with different methods.

One method (POH) is giving shots with the primer. At some Point the engine gets fuel the normal way and also from the primer -> massive RPM rise follows. That is what I want to avoid.

Method two (M20doc) is similar to the method I learnt to crank an Lyco IO-360: Except I was told "wait 6-10sec for the injected fuel to evenly spread around". Hope this works without Problems.

Method 3 seems to do the same as Method one, except that the shots come from the High boost pump not from the primer - correct?

In an earlier post which deals especially with hot-start-situations there was emphasized that it is very important to run the low-boost pump with throttle and mixture closed to replace hot, vaporized fuel with cold fresh fuel. Is this also a way to fill the lines when cold ?

Next question: For the Lyco IO-360 is was told, never to touch the fuel pump again after the engine has been running once - even for a short time. And also that it is much better to go for a coffee and wait 20 Minutes when the engine failed to start versus trying to crank again and again.

Please excuse all my stupid questions, but the M20K with ist TSIO360 is pretty new for me and there seems not to be on single method

[Guest]

Depending on you engine model the induction system is quite different.  In the G series engine the induction system is a long log with the priming nozzles in the front of parts 4&6, in the S series engine induction tubes are equal length.

Clarence

[jlunseth]

NicoN let’s just be clear.  The question had to do with the engine initially starting and then dying, which is common with the TSIO360, mine anyway.  That is different from what you do before you turn the key.  Just push the top corner of the hi boost and let go when the engine is humming.  There will be an RPM rise yes, but that is because the engine was missing and fuel starved, and after you touch the high boost it now has a consistent fuel flow.  Pull the throttle back if the throttle setting results in a too high RPM.

You will find with just a little practice that you can control how much “help” you give the engine by how long you touch the buttom, and thus what kind of RPM runup you get.  I guess I don’t see the problem in the RPM increasing because that is what you want - the engine to start to run with full fuel flow.

[Bryan]

21 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Interesting... I've never used anything but Prime to start the plane on the ground. And it's never failed to start hot or cold.

Same for my TSIO-360-SB.

[Warren]

I think there is still some misunderstanding of the various options with the TSIO-360 and the prime vs. boost function.

1.  All low boost, high boost and prime use the same electric fuel pump.  Low boost has a resistor inline which reduces the pump output, high boost and prime use the pump at full power/capacity.

2.  High boost and low boost simply turn on the pump and provide backup/replacement for the mechanical fuel pump.  Boost provides fuel to the injection system.  How much fuel flow is dependent on the mixture, throttle and whether high/low boost are selected.

3.  Prime also turns on the pump and energizes a valve that shuttles fuel to the intake manifold.

4.  Summary -- Low/high boost puts fuel through the injectors and prime sprays fuel into the intake manifold.

Prime Starting - Starting per the user manual and prime function dumps fuel into the intake.  When the engine starts rotating, the mechanical pump starts to fill the fuel lines to the injectors.  It takes some time to fill the fuel/injector lines and the manual recommends prime pump to keep the engine running while this happens and the engine eventually starts to run from fuel in the injectors.

Boost Starting - The alternate many recommend is to use the high boost pump to load the main injection system and supply starting fuel to the cylinders directly.  Most recommend xx seconds or wait until the fuel flow comes up indicating there is fuel flowing in the system.  There is some risk with this process as it is possible to put too much fuel in the cylinders if you leave the pump on too long.  No problem if you are careful not to run the pump too long but be careful.

Hot Start - Many recommend throttle closed and mixture at cut-off.  Use the high boost for up to 60 sec to circulate cool fuel from the tanks through the system and back to the tank effectively removing fuel vapor from the lines and cooling the lines with fresh fuel.  Then start per your normal procedure.

Hopefully this helps.  Just a summary of what I have learned and read as I have researched operating my 231.  I have tried all the above and they seem to work well.  What I have found works best for me and almost never leads to a missed start.

1.  Prime per table in manual.

2.  Throttle to 1/4, mixture full rich.

3.  High boost until FF comes up.

4.  Start and pull throttle back as it catches.

Hot Start - 60 sec high boost with closed throttle and mixture at cut-off.

I have tried with and without the high boost and both work well.  It just seems that with the high boost it starts quicker and does not require additional shots of prime to keep it running.

Random thoughts from another rookie pilot.  Good luck.

[jlunseth]

16 hours ago, Warren said:

Hot Start - Many recommend throttle closed and mixture at cut-off.  Use the high boost for up to 60 sec to circulate cool fuel from the tanks through the system and back to the tank effectively removing fuel vapor from the lines and cooling the lines with fresh fuel.  Then start per your normal procedure.

This comes from a Pelican’s Perch article, I believe by Walter Atkinson.  First, don’t any of the Lyc guys try this, the advice applies only to Contis.  See the article.  Second, it is really bad advice for the TSIO360LB.  The gist of the advice is that the Contis have a fuel return line, so if you pull the throttle and fuel cutoff and run the High Boost for 60 seconds, supposedly the fuel is all circulated back to the fuel tanks by the return line, the fuel having cooled the lines in the meantime. (They were hot and causing vapor bubbles, that is the hot start problem).  This may work for big bore Contis but it definitely does not work for the 360.  The first time I tried it, a couple of friends happened to be walking by on the ramp.  They told me later that raw fuel was dumping out on the ground.  Not good.  Running the pump for an extended period is also the one way I have found that can cause a backfire in the 360, also not good.  So don’t anyone try the “run it for 60 seconds” advice.  The GAMI guys are smart guys, but the advice is really bad for the 360.  They will tell you that they are not familiar with the 360, at least that is what they told me.

As part of my standard start procedure I pull the throttle and the fuel cutoff and run the hi boost before I prime the engine.  I used to recommend to do this for x seconds, but I don’t anymore.  I have a JPI 930 in my aircraft.  It has a fuel pressure readout.  I run the pump until the fuel pressure starts to level off, and no longer.  As I said, this is the one way you can produce a backfire in the 360, so the idea is to only fill the lines and not push a bunch of fuel to the engine.  

But frankly, I have found that using the High Boost in “instant off” mode is so effective, there really is no need for the exercise of making sure the lines are full of fuel.  It works pretty good just to prime the engine with the primer as recommended in the POH, start the engine, and then if it begins to die just hit the high boost.  You can do it more than once if necessary, until the engine is running smoothly.  

As for “hot starts,” as I said earlier, there is no need for any special technique.  Just prime, start, and use the high boost if/when the engine begins to die.

Edited June 22, 2018 by jlunseth

[Warren]

10 hours ago, jlunseth said:

This comes from a Pelican’s Perch article, I believe by Walter Atkinson.  First, don’t any of the Lyc guys try this, the advice applies only to Contis.  See the article.  Second, it is really bad advice for the TSIO360LB.  The gist of the advice is that the Contis have a fuel return line, so if you pull the throttle and fuel cutoff and run the High Boost for 60 seconds, supposedly the fuel is all circulated back to the fuel tanks by the return line, the fuel having cooled the lines in the meantime. (They were hot and causing vapor bubbles, that is the hot start problem).  This may work for big bore Contis but it definitely does not work for the 360.  The first time I tried it, a couple of friends happened to be walking by on the ramp.  They told me later that raw fuel was dumping out on the ground.  Not good.  Running the pump for an extended period is also the one way I have found that can cause a backfire in the 360, also not good.  So don’t anyone try the “run it for 60 seconds” advice.  The GAMI guys are smart guys, but the advice is really bad for the 360.  They will tell you that they are not familiar with the 360, at least that is what they told me.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

My research and experience is a little different than yours.  Quote from "Continuous Flow Fuel Injection Systems," Aircraft Maintenance Technology, November 1998:

"All TCM pumps rely on a “by-pass valve”
which serves to purge vapors from the lines
when the boost pump is engaged prior to
engine start up."

This article reviews fuel setup on the various variants of TCM engines from naturally aspirated through fuel injected.  It also has an interesting side bar about the complexity of setting up a TSIO-360 with aftermarket intercoolers and the Merlin wastegate controller.

If you are seeing excessive fuel being dumped when running the boost pump while at ICO on your mixture, something is not correct.  I would be worried that there is some damage/scoring/seals allowing leakage or you are not adjusted to get full cut-off.  I run the boost pump frequently for cold and hot starts and have never observed excess fuel during this process.  I looked at my setup in an -LB engine and there is a vapor line returning to the tanks from the top of the fuel pump.

SID97-3G also has coverage of the full range of pumps.  All these pumps also show a vapor return line.

Just sharing my experience and research.  Use your own judgement and make your decisions about safe operation.

But, always good advice to be aware to look for fuel leakage.  If you are going to try the boost pump operations it would be good practice to try this where you can make a good inspection for any excess fuel in and around the engine.  It is definitely not a good idea to have lots of excess fuel pooling and try to start an engine.

Good luck and be safe.

[DanM20C]

On 6/21/2018 at 9:28 AM, Warren said:

Hot Start - Many recommend throttle closed and mixture at cut-off.  Use the high boost for up to 60 sec to circulate cool fuel from the tanks through the system and back to the tank effectively removing fuel vapor from the lines and cooling the lines with fresh fuel.  Then start per your normal procedure.

 

3 hours ago, Warren said:

"All TCM pumps rely on a “by-pass valve”
which serves to purge vapors from the lines
when the boost pump is engaged prior to
engine start up." 

On our TSIO-360'LBs the vapor return line return line is at the mechanical pump.  So with mixture at idle cut off and boost pump on high you are only supplying "cool" fuel fuel between the electric pump to the mechanical pump. 60 seconds would be overkill for that small distance. I think most of the vapor lock problems would be downstream of the mechanical pump up on top of the engine where things get hot. There is no fuel return from the top side of the engine, many other types of engines have a return line from a fuel controller near the throttle body.  Hence where the high boost for 60sec recommendation came from. 

Figure 18 in SID97-3G is basically our fuel system, minus the primer valve/circuit.  The primer is between the throttle body and spider.   

Cheers,

Dan

 

 

[NicoN]

Okay, thank you again fo rall the comments.

Yesterday, I tried the M20Doc-method: I had two attempts of cold starts with 10hour parking between them. So, that defintitely is not much to have a real opinion.

- Mixture and throttle wide-open

- Use the HIGH-Boost-pump until you see FF. I was really surprised about the fast an massive rising FF of over 12gph or more and let go the button immediately.

- Throttle back to 1/4" above ilde

- Engine started, but still needed some more priming.

 

Next time, I was not that shy and let the HIGH-Boost do its job just about a second longer.

Indeed, I had the best engine start ever. WIth an engine that run with constant ~ 1200RPM, no stumbling, no additional priming . nothing.

 

The next  time, I will use the jlunseth-method.

Hope, I have enough hands to handle anything

[BDPetersen]

Then there is the iStart. Istartair.com. It seems to work.