JohnB Posted June 17, 2018 Report Posted June 17, 2018 Huge favor I’ll ask from fellow Bravo owners. What are your oil pressure readings in Psi at altitudes above 13,000 feet? 18k feet? This is a question for Bravo owners. in mine, I have noticed a steady decrease in oil pressure readings as I climb in altitudes just above 13k to around 53 psi with no other gauge changes. Haven’t gone higher recently since I’ve noticed this with more accurate gauges than my factory gauges were. I’ve had the oil pressure screw adjusted, spring replaced, gauge sensor replaced with same so I’m wondering if this is just a lycoming issue in our bravos that doesn’t affect performance before throwing more repairs at it. What I would be hugely curious about if another bravo owner next time you’re flying above 12 k, if you could note what your oil pressure in PSI is at 12, 15, 18, and 21k if any of us are still flying that high that would be hugely helpful. Thanks in advance! John Quote
carusoam Posted June 17, 2018 Report Posted June 17, 2018 John, I believe there might be a similar discussion on this topic already... specific to Bravo owners too? I’ll look to see if my search skills ar working good enough... Best regards, -a- Quote
carusoam Posted June 17, 2018 Report Posted June 17, 2018 Take a read on Dr. Dubin’s thread... Sounds similar to what you are describing... If it is the same issue... my memory is getting better! Best regards, -a- Quote
tls pilot Posted June 18, 2018 Report Posted June 18, 2018 Please check out the Bravo Oil Pressure post and the Low Oil Pressure post Quote
N201MKTurbo Posted June 18, 2018 Report Posted June 18, 2018 The pressure regulator balances engine oil pressure against the spring pressure and atmospheric pressure on the outside of the ball. The atmospheric pressure on the ball is about 15 PSIA at sea level and about 5 PSIA at 25000 ft. So there is about a 10 PSIA difference between sea level and 25000 ft. The bypass orifice has an area of about 1/2 sq in. So just because of atmospheric pressure changes you can expect about a 5 PSI difference in oil pressure. Oil temperature will also have negative affect on oil pressure. The oil cooler is less effective at higher altitudes. Have you tracked your oil temperature with altitude? 1 Quote
N201MKTurbo Posted June 18, 2018 Report Posted June 18, 2018 I think this is a problem for people with digital oil pressure gauges. People with the old analog gauges sleep much better at night. 2 1 Quote
JohnB Posted June 18, 2018 Author Report Posted June 18, 2018 3 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said: The pressure regulator balances engine oil pressure against the spring pressure and atmospheric pressure on the outside of the ball. The atmospheric pressure on the ball is about 15 PSIA at sea level and about 5 PSIA at 25000 ft. So there is about a 10 PSIA difference between sea level and 25000 ft. The bypass orifice has an area of about 1/2 sq in. So just because of atmospheric pressure changes you can expect about a 5 PSI difference in oil pressure. Oil temperature will also have negative affect on oil pressure. The oil cooler is less effective at higher altitudes. Have you tracked your oil temperature with altitude? Oil temperature stays rock soilid and doesn’t change with altitude. That is very interesting, and hugely helpful I like that explanation thank you! 3 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said: I think this is a problem for people with digital oil pressure gauges. People with the old analog gauges sleep much better at night. Ha! True, I never noticed this before I had digital gauges for oil pressure. I’m thinking the analog gauges don’t give you warnings like the digital ones do now which we don’t notice, at least that’s what I’m thinking could have occurred. But it should be reading the same with both digital and analog with your explaination above, except the analog doesn’t give you a caution warning when it dips down. Still hoping Someone still flies their bravo in the flight levels and can take a peek at their oil pressure gauge and share that number and their altitude. So at least I won’t be chasing a non existent problem. Quote
JohnB Posted June 18, 2018 Author Report Posted June 18, 2018 5 hours ago, carusoam said: Take a read on Dr. Dubin’s thread... Sound similar to what you are describing... If it is the same issue... my memory is getting better! Best regards, -a- Yes read that post with interest. The author did the following after his overhaul (which sounds very expensive) In my case, after flying the reman engine for 21 hrs, the engine was pulled and rebuilt w another new camshaft and new tappets, the original design type. After that, I can fly up to FL240 without any oil pressure drop. It certainly fixed the issue. No sense having an engine and plane that can fly at FL240 but you need to fly with the oil pressure in the red or yellow.... Hoping to see if this can be fixed without having to rebuild an entire camshaft and tappets. Or if it even needs to be fixed? Quote
JohnB Posted June 18, 2018 Author Report Posted June 18, 2018 Ok I’m raising the ante... I’ll buy beverages of choice whenever I get to meet you for the Bravo owner who can fill in this chart! PM ok if you don’t want to share! And if you could also let me know whether you have digital or analog gauges and if you’re on your original engine. Altitude Oil Pressure (psi) 12,000 ____________ 15,000 ___________ 18,000 ____________ 21,000 ___________ 25,000 ___________ Thanks hugely! 1 Quote
carusoam Posted June 18, 2018 Report Posted June 18, 2018 12 minutes ago, JohnB said: Yes read that post with interest. The author did the following after his overhaul (which sounds very expensive) In my case, after flying the reman engine for 21 hrs, the engine was pulled and rebuilt w another new camshaft and new tappets, the original design type. After that, I can fly up to FL240 without any oil pressure drop. It certainly fixed the issue. No sense having an engine and plane that can fly at FL240 but you need to fly with the oil pressure in the red or yellow.... Hoping to see if this can be fixed without having to rebuild an entire camshaft and tappets. Or if it even needs to be fixed? I think @rocketman may have had help from lycoming on that... (this is an invite to see If Dr. D. recognizes your situation. Maybe he has some input...?) It seems Lycoming may have created a situation that only they can fix. (Possibly?) There is a similar situation where a newly built IO360 generates too much oil pressure and causes the Mooney gauge to bust a redline... no technical issue other than the legal redline bust... it took a while, but I believe they came out with a solution here as well... PP thoughts only, not intending to bash an engine builder... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
JohnB Posted June 18, 2018 Author Report Posted June 18, 2018 Got it! Looks like this is the same problem as the other thread.. moving to the other one.. thanks again all hugely helpful! Quote
JohnB Posted July 9, 2018 Author Report Posted July 9, 2018 As always, thanks everyone for your input! Well it looks like this is not the same issue as @tls pilot had, as my tappets are the original straight ones, but in speaking with Lycoming, they are now putting parabolic tappets on all of their new FRM engines today as they feel they have fixed the parabolic tappet issue that was around engines in 2009. I think I have this finally figured out, but if someone more wise at engines than me has a better theory, I'm all ears! Here's what I've done to look into this issue: I had my oil relief spring replaced with a new stiffer one PN LW18085. Adjusted oil pressure screw upwards, this changes the startup pressure but does not change pressure at altitude Checked my digital EIS with a known external pressure sensor and verified almost equivalence within specs.. Made sure all of my screens were clear of of obstructions, spring/ ball assembly clear.. Oil pressure still only goes down at increasing altitude above 10.k Oil temp remains fine between 180-192. leaving cowl flaps open allows oil temps to stay lower and therefore oil pressure higher After all of this replacing, I have come to the conclusion this is a manifestation of recognizing oil pressure on a digital readout that blinks at you compared to the old needles that don't blink at you. I found a picture from last year at 17k that shows my oil pressure needle at top of yellow, bottom of green or close, and I've taken my bird up to 25k with no problems whatsoever. AND Ive seen a few pictures of some other mooneys on social media who were taking pictures and posting the speed they're doing at altitude, and likely not noticing their oil pressure gauge, and I note that their oil pressure above 10k is at the bottom of the green/ top of yellow, or yellow on most. It's hard to discern the difference between a pressure of 56 or 53 on a analog needle, but easy with digital. So I think I'm going to go with @N201MKTurbo's theory, that it is simply a manifestation of lower atmospheric pressure on the outside of the ball on the relief spring (or some other atmospheric pressure reduction explanation) compared to the atmospheric pressure at lower altitude, as this is the only variable that changes with my engine is altitude. Another possible theory my mechanic pointed out that on our oil pressure sensor on a Bravo is located on a Y port along with out wastegate controller, so his theory was that the wastegate at that location may be pulling more oil on closing at altitude therefore reducing local pressure which I think is logical as well. Lycoming doesn't buy either of those two theories but no other suggestions. So "I'm going with the altitude theory, as I've heard from a few others that are brave enough to say that their oil pressure does tend to go down at higher altitudes. My fix? Leaving the cowl flaps open at higher altitudes if the blinking of the oil pressure light bothers me. . Thanks all! John B Quote
MB65E Posted July 9, 2018 Report Posted July 9, 2018 I believe your spring is the correct later style PN. You could pull the oil pressure source from another oil galley. I once had an oil pressure gauge tapped near a governor line, it fluctuated a bit. We changed the pick up and it read normal. Maybe you could crank the oil P to 100 psi for T/O or whatever your high limit is. -Matt Quote
JohnB Posted July 17, 2021 Author Report Posted July 17, 2021 (edited) I'm updating this 3+ year old topic as I am hopeful that there may finally be an answer to this issue of Bravo decreasing oil pressure with altitude. After lots of research and hearing about many of us Bravo owners with the same issue and @tls pilot 's experience with his oil pressure with altitude decrease going away with a changeout to straight bodied tappets (thanks tls!) I located a Lycoming service bulletin (link) Lycoming Service Instruction 1011 which discusses and approves the straight bodied tappets over the new hyperbolic tappets for high time engines or engines with lower than expected oil pressures after installing the new hyperbolic tappets. After many inquiries and HUGE help from Kris at Lycoming, Lycoming now as of 5/2021 has a build available for making an engine with the original straight bodied spherical tappets. Thank you Kris!!! See below email. ------------------------------------------------------------- The initial plan that fits your need, is approving a build spec with the 588 tappets. It is in final engineering review/approval before being assigned an ENPL and continuing the process to be setup for distributors to order. We should know more in about a week or two. (This has just been done as of 5/2021) The second solution being worked for in-service engines, is upgrading the oil pump housing and impellers to those used on the 720's. What that means for owners is a far less invasive solution able to be installed in the field that will provide more oil pressure, increasd flow, and the ability to retain the hyperbolic tappets. This solution is a longer term project as a new part will be created specifically for the F1B5. To confirm this new build spec uses the 588 straight bodied tappets to aid in oil pressure margin. New ENPL-11197 Rebuild RENPL-11197 Overhaul HENPL-11197 Absolutely, you might note in your post the new ENPL number (11197) so they know to avoid the 9906 build spec. As you know by COB on the 23rd the price will be going up 13% so if there are any folks that are on the fence or thinking about making a change later this year that now is the time and will save them ~$9k better used for fuel. ----------------------------------------------------------------- I have ordered my FRM engine. as I am coming due for an overhaul TBO, and my replacement FRM engine will come with the 588 tappets. It will not be ready for a few months, but ill update here once done, but I am very hopeful that this will be a permanent fix to this issue as it has been quite some time (and a lot of wasted shop time and $$) to try to fix this issue. I am hopeful I look forward to being able to fly in the high flight levels without having to be at all concerned with low oil pressure. Edited July 17, 2021 by JohnB 2 2 Quote
philiplane Posted July 18, 2021 Report Posted July 18, 2021 (edited) It is common for analog pressure gauges to read lower at higher altitudes. I've noticed this in many different planes, especially about low fuel pressure in climb, or low oil pressure at cruise. No one noticed it as much, until digital gauges came about. A good explanation was posted by someone a few years ago, I don't recall from where: many pressure transducers will indicate lower as you climb, the reason is that the "back" side of the transducer is often not vented to atmosphere, and as you climb the error trends towards the lower side because this captured air pushes back on the transducer as you climb, reducing its reading. This problem has been noted before in fuel pressure readings, which are affected much more as a percent owing to their small nominal of a few psi (carbs). Edited July 18, 2021 by philiplane Quote
JohnB Posted July 18, 2021 Author Report Posted July 18, 2021 5 hours ago, philiplane said: It is common for analog pressure gauges to read lower at higher altitudes. I've noticed this in many different planes, especially about low fuel pressure in climb, or low oil pressure at cruise. No one noticed it as much, until digital gauges came about. Interesting theory but this problem is the same with digital, analog, and calibrated external gauges. I noticed it more when I got all digital as the yellow gets your attention by flashing. And all, I did re-verify. Price in all lycoming built engines is going up 13% this Friday 7/23/21 Quote
carusoam Posted July 19, 2021 Report Posted July 19, 2021 See if the FRM engine uses the same OilP sensor… When you fly to the FLs and the OilP is behaving as expected…. It will kinda of give us a hint if it was an instrument challenge… or a real oilP challenge…. Good luck with the engine swap… I hope you got the order in under the 13% hike…. Best regards, -a- Quote
JohnB Posted September 18, 2022 Author Report Posted September 18, 2022 Just to give follow up on this topic. I had my factory remanufactured engine installed with the original airplane designed straight tappets (Lycoming Rebuild RENPL-11197) instead of the hyperbolic tappets that Lycoming changed to several years ago on factory remanufactured and factory new engines. There is now NO decrease in oil pressure at the flight levels, so far I have been up to 16,000 feet with oil pressures well in the green 63-68 range, where my previous engine would be well below 50 in the yellow at that altitude, dropping incrementally with higher altitudes. Oil pressure no longer seems to fluctuate with altitude but does fluctuate a little with temperature, power settings, etc but essentially remains constant. Quote
Will.iam Posted October 4, 2022 Report Posted October 4, 2022 Wow a rebuilt engine and years tracking this issue down. I recommend you get the tenacity award! 1 1 Quote
rbp Posted October 7, 2022 Report Posted October 7, 2022 On 9/17/2022 at 11:04 PM, JohnB said: Just to give follow up on this topic. I had my factory remanufactured engine installed with the original airplane designed straight tappets (Lycoming Rebuild RENPL-11197) instead of the hyperbolic tappets that Lycoming changed to several years ago on factory remanufactured and factory new engines. There is now NO decrease in oil pressure at the flight levels, so far I have been up to 16,000 feet with oil pressures well in the green 63-68 range, where my previous engine would be well below 50 in the yellow at that altitude, dropping incrementally with higher altitudes. Oil pressure no longer seems to fluctuate with altitude but does fluctuate a little with temperature, power settings, etc but essentially remains constant. is there an explanation for this? Quote
JackM20M Posted October 8, 2022 Report Posted October 8, 2022 On 6/17/2018 at 1:08 PM, JohnB said: Huge favor I’ll ask from fellow Bravo owners. What are your oil pressure readings in Psi at altitudes above 13,000 feet? 18k feet? This is a question for Bravo owners. in mine, I have noticed a steady decrease in oil pressure readings as I climb in altitudes just above 13k to around 53 psi with no other gauge changes. Haven’t gone higher recently since I’ve noticed this with more accurate gauges than my factory gauges were. I’ve had the oil pressure screw adjusted, spring replaced, gauge sensor replaced with same so I’m wondering if this is just a lycoming issue in our bravos that doesn’t affect performance before throwing more repairs at it. What I would be hugely curious about if another bravo owner next time you’re flying above 12 k, if you could note what your oil pressure in PSI is at 12, 15, 18, and 21k if any of us are still flying that high that would be hugely helpful. Thanks in advance! John Found a photo of oil pressure at FL250. Oil pressure was a needle width below 60 psi. It’s been some time since regularly flying at FL250 but I think that’s what I normally see. Quote
JohnB Posted November 17, 2022 Author Report Posted November 17, 2022 On 10/4/2022 at 4:15 PM, Will.iam said: Wow a rebuilt engine and years tracking this issue down. I recommend you get the tenacity award! Hah ha Thank you. This was a major annoyance for me , and in talking with other Bravo Owners and mechanics, seemed to be common that didnt seem to affect engine performance, but was making me nervous to go very high in my airplane. On 10/7/2022 at 3:09 PM, rbp said: is there an explanation for this? Not a great one that I heard, more pronounced pressure drops with altitude in higher time engines, and it is recognized by Lycoming as an issue a few years ago after they changed the tappet style from its original Mooney design to the hyperbolic ones on building/ rebuilding engines. 1 Quote
carusoam Posted November 17, 2022 Report Posted November 17, 2022 Great follow-up John! +1 for the MS Tenacity award! Best regards, -a- Quote
affricate Posted November 18, 2022 Report Posted November 18, 2022 On 6/17/2018 at 2:08 PM, JohnB said: Huge favor I’ll ask from fellow Bravo owners. What are your oil pressure readings in Psi at altitudes above 13,000 feet? 18k feet? This is a question for Bravo owners. in mine, I have noticed a steady decrease in oil pressure readings as I climb in altitudes just above 13k to around 53 psi with no other gauge changes. Haven’t gone higher recently since I’ve noticed this with more accurate gauges than my factory gauges were. I’ve had the oil pressure screw adjusted, spring replaced, gauge sensor replaced with same so I’m wondering if this is just a lycoming issue in our bravos that doesn’t affect performance before throwing more repairs at it. What I would be hugely curious about if another bravo owner next time you’re flying above 12 k, if you could note what your oil pressure in PSI is at 12, 15, 18, and 21k if any of us are still flying that high that would be hugely helpful. Thanks in advance! John Here's mine for a 5.5 hr flight last week at 17,500 (with a break halfway for fuel) 2 Quote
carusoam Posted November 18, 2022 Report Posted November 18, 2022 Way to go affricate! You get MSer of the day award for that! Pics of a Bravo, at altitude, showing the OilP on the edge of the green zone! Go MS! Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
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