67F my landing technique as a student pilot

[Yetti]

Flaps up.  Gear down abeam the numbers.   Cut the power.  U turn to land.   Flaps as needed.

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

40 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

If you really want to impress him, pretend you're back in the champ and go fully cross controlled power off abeam the numbers all the way to touchdown.   Your superior stick and rudder skills should mellow him right out!  Let me know how it works out!

Slip was a standard landing procedure in that plane.  Stick, rudder, throttle, that's it, I miss that kind of fun!  I flew off dirt mostly but there was a little paved section that was 22'x 2000' in a with a straight out cross wind sock.  I had so much fun, especially solo, 1/4 mile final etc.  Slow as a dog for cross country, cars were faster underneath.  

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

14 minutes ago, Yetti said:

Flaps up.  Gear down abeam the numbers.   Cut the power.  U turn to land.   Flaps as needed.

The champ instructor had me chop power abeam too, made you better at judging energy and it also meant you could lose and engine and it would be a non-event.  

 

[carusoam]

Collective response that I got from this...

1) Waiting until base to descend.  Late in the game...  abeam the numbers is standard Mooney procedure... seems like your CFI will not run out of energy before reaching the runway.  In an emergency, this is good.  A test of your skills will be touching down on the numbers...

2) staged descents.  Adds a lot of work, judgement, opportunity to fall behind.  Re-read @Yetti's description of the big U-turn... it simplifies all the extra steps.

3) read and memorize the stall speed chart at various flap settings.  Know the things not to do.  Know the things that you should do...

4) know how to avoid missing the turn to final, over-banking, cross controlled, stall spin on final... X-winds have a tendency to help a pilot misjudge something easy.  The wrong response could be incredibly bad...

5) know the value of keeping the nose down in the turns.

6) knowing your air speed throughout the landing process is beneficial.  Some people are really good at it. Some people can only spot Check a few times around the circuit...  multitasking is a great skill.  It is hard to adjust speed and altitude, if you don't get constant feed back what the speed and altitude actually are....

7) with only front seaters, you will probably run out of trim about the same time you have full flaps and are on speed....

8) On final include a look out the side window...  this gives a great input to altitude and vertical speed as you approach the runway....

9) flying with other Mooney pilots and different CFIs is a great way to pick up different pieces of the puzzle. I wouldn't be in a rush to get rid of the old CFI... but, picking up some Mooney specific instruction along the way would be beneficial... Mooney fly-ins are great for this!  (Thanks Marauder, Jetdriven, 201er, and other pilot’s that let me ride right seat over the last few years or sitting right seat while I fly my plane...)

10) Full flap go-around skill is very important to get.  A non-Mooney CFI may not be familiar.  Do it at altitude! Include slow flight, in the landing configuration while you are there.

11) full throttle with flaps down, retrimming... is a handful just keeping the nose from going skyward while Airspeed gets depleted.

12) fly right seat while a Mooney pilot does practice approaches...  good for them, and good for you too.... discuss individual responsibilities before flying....

13) Look into AOAindicators. This may be beneficial for you...

 

I added some additional stuff that came to mind...

PP thoughts only, constantly learning to fly a Mooney... not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Yetti]

6 minutes ago, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

The champ instructor had me chop power abeam too, made you better at judging energy and it also meant you could lose and engine and it would be a non-event.  

 

I would like to update that.   The POH says no turns under 90 mph without flaps.   Please keep the nose pointed down.

[KLRDMD]

As I think you're realizing, you need an instructor that knows Mooneys.

[carusoam]

Chopping power abeam the numbers is a normal training procedure.  It is pretty much as far from the runway, Going the wrong direction, as possible...

The Mooney can handle it. The pilot needs to know how to conserve energy while going directly to the numbers...

Don't,expect to continue flying the whole pattern.  Doing this, you will run out of energy before you get to the numbers....

More PP thoughts...only.

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

A two step process...

1) learn to fly...

2) transition train for the Mooney specific stuff... (the part Ken is referring to above)

3) Look up MAPA for an incredible training program they put together around the country. Personalized to meet your needs and those of your Mooney.

Best regards,

-a-

[Yetti]

The time I did had the power chopped, was in transition training.   With a Cessna 172 I made haste for the runway.    We were way high with lots of energy.  The CFI tried to save it with a forward slip.....  still high and a go around.

The Mooney just wants to be taken to the runway in a normal fashion.  Just fly the plane. 

 

[steingar]

2 hours ago, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

Steingar, I have the make it work mentality, that seems to work out, usually I have a go around trying to follow all these procedures that are given to me, lol.  I have to do what I have to do, I've already got rid on an instructor for my PPL, I don't want to keep getting new ones!  I want to go out and fly places dammit!  I have 20 more hours to go since none of the champ training transfers as the instructor was a CFIS.  I think I'll be ready after another 5-10 more dual.  

It doesn't matter how  many CFIs you go through.  The key is to find the right one.  

2 hours ago, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

My instructor will show me something once the way he wants me to do it, and if I deviate even on the first try he's mad.  Perhaps I can slip him something for his nerves when I give him a bottle of water from the hanger fridge.  

Sorry, the guy you're working with is fit for no one.  Part of learning to fly is figuring it out for yourself.  If someone expects you to learn to fly the same way you learn anatomy, they're doing it wrong.  Like I said, this guy would have been fired the first lesson were it me.  Lots of CFIs out there.  The fact that he was a Navy Seal/Top Gun/Carrier/Astronaut/whatever doesn't matter a hill of beans if he isn't doing it right.  What works for an F18 doesn't necessarily translate to a Mooney M20c.

[Bryan]

I agree, sounds like you need a different CFI.

A good CFI told me once, "I am just in the plane to help protect you, the plane, and myself until you, the student, learn how to fly safely."

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

I have done the power chopped abeam, it worked out fine, in-fact, maybe better than my normal approach.  Lol.  I will start getting the feelers out for a new CFI, first let me ask him to cool it.  I can fly the plane fine, I just need him to relax.  I love my solo time since, I can deviate 3 or 4 seconds without getting an earful.  Here's how it goes, we are midfield and we are 125mph, he says your gear isn't down, I say I just reduced MP I'll put it down at 120.  I put it down soon afterwards, he says now you're late for your flaps, I say I'm waiting for 105, soon after I put them down, he says you're late for base turn, its not procedural etc etc.  Then I'm sweating and afraid I'll miss something else by 4 seconds, then the landing is just fine but it didn't happen at just the right sequence at just the right time.  It's alot of pressure.  I may grin and bear it for times sake and learn the rest on my own during solo or after ppl, I'm safe, I just need to dial it in better.  

Edited October 24, 2017 by Grandmas Flying Couch

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

Slip was a standard landing procedure in that plane.  Stick, rudder, throttle, that's it, I miss that kind of fun!  I flew off dirt mostly but there was a little paved section that was 22'x 2000' in a with a straight out cross wind sock.  I had so much fun, especially solo, 1/4 mile final etc.  Slow as a dog for cross country, cars were faster underneath.  

I've some time in both Champs and Chiefs (pretty intimate side by side seating).  I fly a Decathlon as well when I can make time.  Great fun if you've nowhere to go.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Shadrach

[gsxrpilot]

I might have missed this... do you have a PP certificate yet? If not are you just trying to get a recommendation for a checkride or are there still tasks that must be completed?

If the video you posted is about average for your landings, that CFI needs to shut the hell up about your landings and use the time to teach your something useful. But then he might very well not know how to teach anything else.

If you're about done with him anyway, cool. But if you've got more than a few hours to go, I'd fire him.

[Hank]

No need to "fire" him, just schedule with someone else (who knows what a Mooney is!).

[Spurious Moppet]

2 cents on the CFI thing... I’m a former Navy carrier instructor pilot, airline pilot and newish Mooney flier with a CFI certificate. I wouldn’t feel comfortable offering to train others for hire in a Mooney without some dedicated transition training and a good deal more experience in type. Especially not at the primary training level, which it sounds like you are at. Unless that CFI is willing to first learn to fly a Mooney himself before teaching in it, I wouldn’t be too keen to fly with him. High time jet pilots get into more than their share of trouble flying light pistons. If their was a personality conflict in addition to the CFI not being familiar with the airplane, that would seal the deal. I would hope to never let myself pay money to fly with someone who stresses me out or takes away the fun of learning to fly.

[EricJ]

21 hours ago, carusoam said:

Chopping power abeam the numbers is a normal training procedure.  It is pretty much as far from the runway, Going the wrong direction, as possible...

The Mooney can handle it. The pilot needs to know how to conserve energy while going directly to the numbers...

Don't,expect to continue flying the whole pattern.  Doing this, you will run out of energy before you get to the numbers....

More PP thoughts...only.

Best regards,

-a-

When I did my transition training the instructor had me chop power abeam the numbers a couple of times.   A lot of my primary training in Cessnas was done that way, but I was surprised how much different it was in the Mooney.   Turn in *now* and keep it turning in for the numbers.  Definitely a short approach.  I'm glad I did that training.

19 hours ago, Grandmas Flying Couch said:

Then I'm sweating and afraid I'll miss something else by 4 seconds, then the landing is just fine but it didn't happen at just the right sequence at just the right time.  It's alot of pressure.  I may grin and bear it for times sake and learn the rest on my own during solo or after ppl, I'm safe, I just need to dial it in better.  

It's okay for training to cause some anxiety, because the whole idea is you're learning new tasks and stretching your capabilities.   But if it's *always* like that it can be counterproductive.  

[Immelman]

You've received a fair amount of advice here and I haven't read it all, so please forgive any repeats, but my thoughts as a 10-year Mooney owner, CFI, etc:

1. Landing a Mooney isn't that different from most single engine piston airplanes. The difference is that it is less forgiving of not being on speed and trimmed.

2. Your goal as a student is to get the airplane to a pre-determined point on short final (for the sake of argument, lets say a few hundred feet AGL), airspeed trimmed for 1.3x stall speed, lined up with the runway, and on a reasonable glide path. IF you get the airplane there, then the exercise of round out, flare, touchdown, rollout, and any crosswind correction is much more consistent, and your landings will show consistent improvement, and likely be safe.

3. HOW you get to that pre-determined point can vary substantially. And it needs to vary substantially depending on the conditions. Your instructor gave you a very complicated recipe. Consider this a starting point. Things like 36 seconds, specific power settings, specific descent rates... sorry but they make my head spin! That might work in a specific canned scenario, but any change in the winds, change in traffic in the pattern, etc, and its thrown out the window.

Some notes to the above:

Final approach speed, "over the fence" should be 1.3x stall speed. Just like most other piston airplanes! Stall speed depends on weight and configuration (flap setting). The numbers on the airspeed indicator and POH are typically for max gross weight. If you weigh less, the airplane can fly more slowly. Your target speed is adjusted accordingly. Want to use reduced flaps? Speed increased accordingly. Gusty wind? speed increased. Don Kaye has a slide show that has a table of target speeds... you might refer to this. Whatever the case, you NEED to decide ahead of time what speed you will target and get the airplane there, and trimmed for hands off flight on short final. This isn't something you should be thinking about on short final, its something to figure out sooner

Proper glidepath: You have a window here.. at some point, too low (too flat), at some point too high (too steep). The acceptable range in my line of thinking is as shallow as 3 degrees (you will carry some power), and as steep as can be flown with the throttle at idle without pushing the nose over to gain speed in order to make the beginning of the runway. That's your window. Anywhere between those altitudes and you can make power adjustments to vary your descent rate and make the desired touchdown point without significant airspeed or trim variations.

Keep practicing,.... strive to be as precise as possible with your speed selection, being on the runway center line, etc, and keep it simple!

 

 

[bradp]

I agree with the other statements here.  Seems to be a theme that maybe this instructor is not the right fit. Are you doing primary training in the Mooney?  I still can't tell. It's hard to find someone who simultaneously meets the needs of a primary student and can provide advanced type training.  They are typically two different breeds. 

TLAR like Bob-S50 says - everything changes based on environmental conditions and aircraft load. 

I pull power on downwind, about (not exactly) 15" MP maybe more or less, gear out abeam, start descending and slowing.  Takeoff flap position in the white arc.  Decide about whether I want to use takeoff flaps or full flaps for landing (If it's not "landing assured" from downwind, gusty day, etc I use takeoff flaps and carry a bit more speed in the roundout - this gives me rudder for crosswinds and I'm configured for trim for go around so there are no significant control forces needed to get out of dodge). I aim for a downwind to base turn at a 45-degree point.  Timing your legs is plain jane silly.  Look out the window not at your yoke. 

Somewhere between 12 and 15 of MP usually gets me where I want to be unless there is a strong wind down the runway.  I usually do whatever method you call pitch for airspeed and keep the TDZ at the same spot in the windshield with subtle power changes.  Let the plane settle. It's remarkably stable.  Watching videos of myself landing where I could see me, I would notice that I had a tendency to react to every little gust with a control input and that just resulted in more control inputs.  Fewer inputs are generally better - let the plane fly itself and just coax her in the right direction. 

I try to maintain a 3-deg glidepath which would put me about 300 AGL on a 1 mile final.  I don't think I've ever referenced my altimeter - just get a visual sense of where you need to be.

In fact, you should be able to land your Mooney without reference to any instrumentation - just the noise of the engine and your view out the window. 

Average day with average load here are my starting points for an early J:  Whatever on downwind, about 100 MPH turning base, about 90 MPH turning final, about 80 mph short final, land at seventy something MPH depending on weight, where I want to turn off, and wind. 

Notice how I haven't given many hard numbers?  There are some guidelines that will keep you safe like don't overbank or overload the wing in a base to final turn).  But your speed over the fence depends on your weight.  Keep the maneuvering margins safe and know what kind of environment you're landing in - this will dictate your landing performance.  Eventually you'll develop an idea of how loaded your wing is on final and how much excess (or not) energy you have.  This will come with experience so don't sweat it too much.  

Avoid flaring and stalling the wing more than a few inches off the runway.  It will drop hard and you'll have a "hard landing".  

A mooney will land when it wants.  You will just coax it on when it wants to. 

Avoid forcing the nose onto the runway or this happens:  If  you bounce once, you may be able to recover with a little power application.  If you bounce twice you should be out of there quick on the go - the third is historically when the prop strike happens.

Keep some general guidelines about numbers but realize that they can change - land at 90kts over the threshold no flaps in formation?  Your mooney will do that even if the driver is just an average pilot.  Just don't force it. 

 

Key points: 

On target speed; carry more if gusty or heavy, less if light.

Don't overbank, don't stall.

Flare a couple of inches off the runway by holding the nose off. 

When the mooney wing stops flying it really stops flying.

Check your gear. Check it once more. 

Be ready for a go around.

Find what works for you and maybe another set of eyes. 

 

[Skates97]

On 10/24/2017 at 2:50 AM, Yetti said:

Landing looks good, not too much to fix.

I do that U turn to land that people were talking about was safer this summer.

15" of throttle in the pattern.  I was taught not to touch the other two levers the whole decent nor nothing.

Wheels down abeam the numbers.   Some times I am fast.  Just pull up slightly to get under gear speed.  (I noticed on my FR the Mooney CFI kept suggesting I needed to slow down)

Start the U turn to final.  Flaps come down to half depending on winds and how the set up was.  Sometimes in the turn sometimes on final.

The manual says "no turns under 90mph without flaps"

throttle as required to make a good landing.

It is a more consistent bleeding off of energy.   The turn uses up a bunch of the energy.

 

I read the articles on the study that they were doing at the University of North Dakota and I have considered playing around with those just to see what I think of them. In flying the constant turn from downwind to final what radio calls do you make? Do you call a base leg as you start the turn and then once you're 90 degrees through the turn and beginning the turn to final (so to speak) do you call final? At a towered field I'm not sure it matters unless the tower has said they will call the base, but at an un-towered field other planes are used to hearing downwind/base/final.

[Yetti]

AIM says to call the turns in the pattern.  "Turning Base"  Put flaps to half adjust throttle check to make sure final is clear of planes, check gear down, "Turning Final"   The calls are just closer together.  It is a higher workload situation.     At a towered airport you can still keep a tight pattern unless on vectors.  Farm to Market road 50 is a 1/2 nm from the runway.  The turn to final usually puts me 1/2 mile from the end of the runway.

[carusoam]

Richard,

The position calls are for the other pilots to know where you are in the pattern...

Not exactly about how you are flying the pattern...

'turning base' and 'turning final' followed by 'short final' may be more appropriate...

When a student holding short looks up... he sees you in a bank and puts together a picture of what you are doing...

At an uncontrolled field, the radio can get kind of busy.  Add in things like... 'blue and white Mooney, #2 behind the Cezzna'.... when it makes sense...

Brief messages that aid other people gain a sense of the separation being maintained by all the players....

Another one that happens...  'blue and white Mooney, extending downwind, still #2 behind the cezzna....'

If you extend the downwind without telling anyone, you run the risk of #3 thinking you are leaving the pattern. In this case #3 turns on schedule and meets you over the numbers....

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[gsxrpilot]

Just don't be the knucklehead who gets on the radio and asks other aircraft in the area to "please advise."

[Bob - S50]

Just now, gsxrpilot said:

Just don't be the knucklehead who gets on the radio and asks other aircraft in the area to "please advise."

On the other hand I have asked what runway they were using because they were calling downwind and base without reference to a runway number.

[gsxrpilot]

2 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

On the other hand I have asked what runway they were using because they were calling downwind and base without reference to a runway number.

Yep, that's perfectly normal and correct to ask for specific information from another known aircraft in the pattern. But it's unbelievable that you still hear pilots today call in with something like... "Cirrus 1234, 5 miles east of Centerville for landing, all aircraft in the area please advise"  I heard it twice just last week flying around central Texas.