Too much plane... Plane gets ahead of new pilot... Etc...

[peevee]

48 minutes ago, gsengle said:

 

That's not true. They have different stall speeds. Glide ratios. Weights. You point the nose down in an Archer, no problem. Do the same in a modern Mooney for instance, whoa, redline!

Some planes are inherently easier and more forgiving. And of course multi (asymmetric thrust) is a whole other level of difficulty.


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Not really.

Even the rocket will happily fly around at 110kts at 22" 

Bonanzas are the happiest of the ones I've flown at all speeds.

[gsengle]

Not really.
Even the rocket will happily fly around at 110kts at 22" 

You didn't read what I wrote. Yes you can cruise any light single at 90kts comfortably, so? That's one of many factors.........


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[peevee]

20 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

I hear Air Traffic Controllers have a saying -- Mooneys show up as two primary radar returns:  One for the airframe, the second for the pilot about 5 miles in trail. 

Most are completely unaware of what a Mooney is or looks like aside from the pilots have a horrible reputation for poor radio comms. So.... No there is no saying. Not to mention the vast majority of mooneys just...aren't...that fast. Sorry, 180kts doesn't catch anyone's attention.

[peevee]

1 minute ago, gsengle said:

 

You didn't read what I wrote. Yes you can cruise any light single at 90kts comfortably, so? That's one of many factors.........


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And you're saying things happen faster in airplane a at 90 knots than in airplane b at 90 knots? You must have some special ability to bend space time.

[gsengle]

And you're saying things happen faster in airplane a at 90 knots than in airplane b at 90 knots? You must have some special ability to bend space time.

Ah yes literacy challenges here.


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[201er]

5 minutes ago, peevee said:

And you're saying things happen faster in airplane a at 90 knots than in airplane b at 90 knots? You must have some special ability to bend space time.

Yeah, they do.

Airplane C: takeoff, retract flaps, turn cross wind, turn downwind, throttle back, sit back in lala land at 90 knots, reduce power, add flaps, base, final

Airplane M: takeoff, retract gear, retract flaps, turn cross wind, throttle back, turn downwind, prop back, mixture back, close cowl flaps, slow down to 90 knots, gear down, flaps, turn base, prop/mixture in, check the gear's down, turn final, make sure the gear's down

Yeah, things happen faster in some planes compared to others all while flying 90 knots cause you have to get more things down.

[peevee]

Just now, 201er said:

Yeah, they do.

Airplane C: takeoff, retract flaps, turn cross wind, turn downwind, throttle back, sit back in lala land at 90 knots, reduce power, add flaps, base, final

Airplane M: takeoff, retract gear, retract flaps, turn cross wind, throttle back, turn downwind, prop back, mixture back, close cowl flaps, slow down to 90 knots, gear down, flaps, turn base, prop/mixture in, check the gear's down, turn final, make sure the gear's down

Yeah, things happen faster in some planes compared to others all while flying 90 knots cause you have to get more things down.

You can't fly the pattern with the gear down and prop at high rpm? News to me.

[201er]

Just now, peevee said:

You can't fly the pattern with the gear down and prop at high rpm? News to me.

Why the heck would you do that!?

[PMcClure]

Things happen faster in a Mooney. Besides having to manage the more complex systems, the plane descends much faster than a 172 at the same power. That was the biggest learning and probably took about 10 hours to adjust to. Point the F model downhill and you pick up speed fast, causing the unexperienced pilot to fly final too fast, constantly adjusting to slow down while messing with the gear, flaps and prop and possibly ending in a bounced landing or prop strike. A 172 is far more forgiving and allows more time to correct, even at 90 knots. Not to mention the stall speed of a 172 is like 40 knots and the F is like 60 knots. All this stuff matters to a new pilot. 

 

[201er]

1 minute ago, PMcClure said:

Not to mention the stall speed of a 172 is like 40 knots and the F is like 60 knots. All this stuff matters to a new pilot.

And the fact that stall is an angle and not a speed. Unfortunately a smoldering crater is not a beneficial lesson that you can stall a Mooney (or Cirrus for that matter) at 90 knots in certain conditions!

[Bob - S50]

Flying a faster airplane is 90% mental.  If you are always thinking ahead of a slow airplane, chances are you'll soon be thinking ahead of a fast one.  The Air Force used to take pilots from a 100 KIAS final T37 to a 155 KIAS final T38 and the students would adapt very quickly.  Maybe 20 or 30 hours to solo if I remember right.

Rumor has it I went from 3 years of final at 100 KIAS in a T37 to flying an F106 at 186 KIAS on final and lived to tell about it.  If I can do it, most others can too.

It's just a matter of getting used to the higher speeds and knowing what the plane can and can't do.  Some people can do that in just a few hours.  Others may take many many hours.  A select few may never be able to do that.

[Capitalist]

8 hours ago, M20Doc said:

The greater the complexity and performance of the airplane the longer the training program.  Expect the training to take a week or more as you move up, and the training is not given at the local flight school it's at a training centre, like Flight Safety International.

I have a customer who did 172, 182, SR22, TBM, Citation CJ3 all on his private ticket.

Clarence

That is a very interesting progression. 

The jump from SR22 to TBM surprises me the most. Isn't the TBM 100kts faster and twice the size and weight easy? 

I bet a CJ has a lot of the pilot assist programs that make it easier to fly than one would think. Especially for someone that has some hours in a TBM. 

Edited August 16, 2017 by Capitalist

[Capitalist]

2 hours ago, Ah-1 Cobra Pilot said:

I also went quickly into far more complex aircraft, (jets), and some real dummies less competent pilots managed to do it, too.  I second the fact that currency is far more important.  It is not so important that the doctor buys the new Bonanza, it is that he does not fly it enough to maintain currency.  Why else would this joke have some validity?

What are the four most dangerous things in aviation?
1.  A doctor in a Bonanza.
2.  A lawyer in a 210.
3.  A Marine in a helicopter.
4.  A stewardess with a chipped tooth.

Lol on #4

[PMcClure]

I briefly looked into a TBM. The insurance requirement.was 1 year with a co-pilot. 

[AndyFromCB]

1 hour ago, PMcClure said:

I briefly looked into a TBM. The insurance requirement.was 1 year with a co-pilot. 

Who quoted you that? 500 hours of complex high performance, simulator training plus 25 hours of mentor time was what I got when I flew for our old insurance company. Mentor time was only because I had no prior turbine experience. That 25 hours came in really handy learning arrival procedures. To me that was the only surprise, STARs take a while to get right. Other than that, it was easier to fly than any other piston. Cross the threshold at 80, make a good landing, cross the threshold at 120 make a good landing. But dealing with 3000fpm descents with speed and altitude restrictions took some getting used. But on the other hand crossing FAF at 160 was never an issue like it can be in a piston. There was pretty much zero engine or fuel management, instead you had to deal with dialing in pressurization but I think even that went away in the G1000/G3000 aircraft. Miss that airplane, do not miss my former employer at all.

There were quite a few people that moved on up from Cirrus to Cessna Mustang at a couple of hundred hours but that's because Cessna had a deal with a few insurance companies that would insure anyone with a Flight Safety type rating and Flight Safety made an exception to the 1000 hour requirement for the Mustang that they have for all other type ratings. 25 hour mentor time was a requirement as well.

Edited August 16, 2017 by AndyFromCB

[jaylw314]

IMO, in the piston singles, it's maximum and minimum airspeed that puts you at risk for getting behind.  Even though all of them can be flown at similar airspeeds, faster planes will be flown faster by their pilots, which means less time for any given task.  At slow speeds, a fast plane can't be flown as slow, meaning less time for any given task.  That probably far outweighs any complexity, which can be overcome by checklists and procedures.

[TTaylor]

Generally it is not the the basic operation of the aircraft that is the problem. It is the mix of weather, unfamiliar situations and a complex fast aircraft that get the pilot way behind.  Yes, you can train and jump from one aircraft to an other fairly quickly.  Have you built the muscle memory and had enough experience to make good decisions when the shit hits the fan all at once?  Fast aircraft can get you into situations quickly and only good judgment will get you out.  Do much serious cross country and you will find that it is mostly Mooney's and Bo's out there on the trips longer than 200 miles.  You start dealing with multiple weather systems, rapidly changing weather, smoke and haze, etc. 

Good training goes a long way, but having experience in many situations takes time.

“Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.”

 

Edited August 16, 2017 by TTaylor

[bradp]

Paging @Samurai Husky   

Have to agree with what Ttaylor said there. You see a lot of mooney and bonanzas doing long cross country trips across weather systems. I don't want to play to stereotypes too much but there are times I will sit at home or cancel a trip and wonder who's flying today.  Often cirrus.  It's a function of how many planes are in the air - cirrus dominates at any given time those "in the system" among small piston singles - but there is also a lot of capability built into a turbocharged fiki bird and that plane's capability is sometimes in excess of its pilot.  

[CaptainAB]

17 hours ago, Capitalist said:

At flight school the other day my instructor dropped subtle hints about some guy buying a cirrus and basically people buying planes that he believes are beyond their training. 

What are your thoughts on this? I always thought a Cirrus was a pretty mainstream airplane loaded with a lot of expensive goodies. It doesn't even have RG... It seems that the progression through airplanes can be difficult at each increment, understandable, but how do you move up without moving up?  

I plan to be IFR rated by the time I buy an airplane. I'm training in cherokees and warriors. 

Is a Mooney too much airplane for a first plane? 

Just for argument sake and nothing more, Would this work logging a good amount of hours in each of the following before transitioning- Trainer Pipers > Mooney M20J > 36 Bonanza > 58 Baron > TBM or Meridian > King Air 90 

How do you get to the extremely capable airplanes? 

Anyways! Sorry if this stirs some kind of pot, I am genuinely intrigued. I want some bad ass airplanes, but I want to be a good enough pilot to handle them. 

The Cirrus SR 22 has some deceptively unique challenges for lower time pilots. It looks so easy. Fixed gear, No prop control. Yet you fly your final at 80 knots and you have 300 horse power to manage. Thats probably why most insurance companies will require at least 10 hours dual with a certified Cirrus Instructor and another 10 solo before you put people in the plane. So basically what everyone already knows on this forum. Type Training is key. The BRS system is also a lot more complicated then marketed. The offer classes in making that decision when the time comes. 

Cirrus has amazing resources for pilots and has just announced training for the buyers of resales airplanes. 

http://www.cirrusaircraft.com/embark/

 

 

 

 

[Yetti]

I think the side stick on the SR22 is an additional  challenge for newer pilots and their instructors.   There is no easy way to level the yoke and go neutral position since it is all relative.  Add the springs and wacky wing and slow speed and you will have a Hobby/ Navasota stall spin in event.

In a traditional yoke arrangement it is both visual and tactile to know the yoke is in the right position at the right time.

Some people try and "program" a plane to do things, some people learn to fly the plane and become part of the process.

Search for the Samari Husky thread for a good read.

 

[Piloto]

My very first plane was an American Yankee AA1A. After some 200hrs on it I bought an M20C. At the time there was no CFI familiar with in PR. So I Just started the engine myself and flew it. I don't remember any unusual characteristic except for the manual gear operation. It was very much like transitioning from a VW to Ford Fairlane 500.

José

[Guest]

7 hours ago, 201er said:

Yeah, they do.

Airplane C: takeoff, retract flaps, turn cross wind, turn downwind, throttle back, sit back in lala land at 90 knots, reduce power, add flaps, base, final

Airplane M: takeoff, retract gear, retract flaps, turn cross wind, throttle back, turn downwind, prop back, mixture back, close cowl flaps, slow down to 90 knots, gear down, flaps, turn base, prop/mixture in, check the gear's down, turn final, make sure the gear's down

Yeah, things happen faster in some planes compared to others all while flying 90 knots cause you have to get more things down.

Sounds overly complex to me, its why I stepped down to a 400 HP Piper.

Clarence

[Jerry 5TJ]

6 hours ago, PMcClure said:

I briefly looked into a TBM. The insurance requirement.was 1 year with a co-pilot. 

I moved into single engine turboprop.  My insurance quote  required initial training (5 days) then 25 hours TT in type before carrying passengers. Of that 12 hours accrued in training.  After surviving 1st year insurance was 30% lower.  

 

[DonMuncy]

Depends on the pilot (or pilot to be) and to an extent on the CFI. If one is patient enough to keep learning until he/she gets to the correct level of competence, and the CFI is careful enough to make sure this happens, any Cirrus or Mooney is OK to learn in. But a failure on the part of the pilot or CFI will lead to a more dangerous situation  than would occur in a 150. 

[Piloto]

 And where was the CFI for the Wright brothers for the first powered flight. Or for Neil Armstrong first touch and go on the Moon.

José