More iPad

[jlunseth]

I saw some posts on the mapa list about the newest version of Foreflight, particularly Mitch's post, and am looking for some more information.  Not about the new version so much as about the iPad itself, and its usefulness for situational awareness in flight. 

I have the 3G and have been playing with it, not much in the K yet because it was in annual, but I have it back now and have tried the iPad a little.  It appears to me that the GSP in the iPad is pretty much useless at higher altitudes.  It also appears to me that I have to have the Cellular Data selection "On," in other words I need to be receiving a cell phone signal, in order to get a read on the plane's position.  This leads me to wonder what might be useful in the new version of Foreflight, because most of the new stuff appears to be georeferencing, which the iPad does not seem to do very well. 

I was up in the K this weekend, we went to 12,500 just for the fun of it, and had no GPS on the iPad up there at all.  I do have a moving map in the panel so we have inflight georeferencing, just not georeferencing on an approach plate or a taxiway diagram.  Would be fun to have if it actually worked.

[Bob]

After reading the information provided by Ken Reed in the past, I purchased a Ipad a couple months ago and have now used Foreflight ($79, no geo reference) and Skychart Pro ($20 with geo reference).  I basically use Foreflight on the ground for flight planning and fileing.  When in the air, for me, it becomes a back-up in the event of panel failure.  While sitting idle as a back-up you can also play a movie or music and offer it to your passangers.  My plan is to keep 10 good movies available.  I have chosen to mount my Ipad, verticle, on the co-pilot yoke.  Since I am short It does not work for me on the pilot yoke.

Yesterday I was flying VFR for about 200 miles at 2000msl/1400agl, but 10 miles visibility.  In the past I would watch the terrain screen on my multifunction and follow paper charts to double check for towers, etc.  This time I turner on Chartview Pro and it reduced workload greatly.  It was nice to just look at the Ipad and see the heights listed just like a paper chart.  It did create a additional situational awareness.  It is also great for airport diagrams when going into an unfamiliar area or for an unplanned stop.

Earlier in the flight I was at 17500 and had no issues with gps signal failure.  I have chosen to use the Ipad's gps and no external unit.

The Ipad should NEVER be used for primary navigation!  Bit it is a great tool for situation awareness.  The power of the unit is unbelivable for the price.  For me it is the best purchase since my JPI 830.

I am not sure what route I am going to add traffic in the future since I have a multifunction I can send traffic to.  But if I did not have this option, I would add the ads-b receiver as Ken suggested.  Please see previous post for more great information.

http://www.mooneyspace.com/index.cfm?mainaction=posts&forumid=4&threadid=1913

[flight2000]

Are you using the internal GPS?  I've heard it gets pretty crappy reception and isn't very accurate (+/- 10 meters).  Wonder if an external antenna would work better for it up at altitude? 

I'm waiting to see 1.) where I'm off to next and 2.) for the Gen 2 iPad to come out before diving into the foray.  The story on the street is that Apple will debut it next week.

Brian

[FlyDave]

I have a writeup that I need to finish and post on ForeFlight, SkyCharts Pro and the SkyRadar app and ADS-B receiver. I hope to have that done this weekend.

I have found the iPad internal GPS a little flakey at times.

The SkyRadar ADS-B reveiver has a WAAS GPS receiver and commnicates with the iPad via WLAN. The WAAS GPS seems pretty reliable but I haven't had it above 10,500'. The SkyRadar application is unique and, I think, VERY easy to use and handy. You can download it for free with a 1 month trial.  They also offer geo-referrenced low altitude charts and approach plates but I haven't purchased that yet.

[Bob]

Quote: flight2000

Are you using the internal GPS?  I've heard it gets pretty crappy reception and isn't very accurate (+/- 10 meters).  Wonder if an external antenna would work better for it up at altitude? 

 

I am useing the internal gps only.  I have had no issues with reception or accuracy like others.  My thought is, if it is not accurate enough because it is 10 meters off, you are useing it for primary navigation.  WASS accuracy is not needed for situational awareness.  There are some that have hugged Bravo space while useing the ipad to navigate and busted the Bravo.  I hope all pilots use it as an additional tool and not a way to get a cheap panel upgrade. 

 If people continue to use it as primary navigation and get in trouble, the FAA may exclude it from our EFB options.  Lets not let that happen!

 

[flight2000]

I agree that it should only be used for SA, but I'd still like a little more reliable data on geo-referenced charts.  The aftermarket external GPS antennae currently available may provide better accuracy and was looking for validation from someone that may have one already. That's all.

Apple never intended the iPad to be used as an EFB, so seeing it as such is left up to an individual company to pursue with the FAA.  I'm not familiar enough with EFB certification, so will reserve judgement on what we can and cannot get away with during part 91 ops.  I do know that at least one part 135 company has gotten opspec approval to use iPads as an EFB.  

[Jeff_S]

I bought one of the 3G versions when it first came out and have used it in the cockpit now for 9 months. I find the internal GPS actually does a good job. I have a Bad Elf external GPS and interestingly, with that plugged in, the readout never says better than "10 meter" accuracy, whereas with just the internal GPS it will often say "5 meter". However, if I watched this closely, I'm guessing it would only do this down low when the Assisted GPS kicks in and uses cell towers and WiFi to help with the location.

I've also seen occasional glitches with the moving map, especially the Sectional map in an area where you are right on the edge of a TAC and Sectional.  ForeFlight will automatically switch over to a TAC if you zoom in close enough (example, here in Atlanta) but if you're flying on the edge of airspace then you see a mixture of both TAC and Sectional and it can confuse the location of the airplane.

Example: last weekend we were flying directly overhead Berry Hill airport, and the ForeFlight Sectional moving map had somehow gotten confused and showed us about 2 miles west, which would have put us inside the Class B airspace for Hartsfield. I just pinched the map to "de-zoom" it a bit and all of a sudden we snapped back to being right over Berry Hill. And this was with the Bad Elf GPS plugged in, so I don't think the problem was with the GPS coordinates per se, but rather with how they were transferred to the moving map.

All of which to support the notion that the iPad is an awesome tool for situational awareness and a great way to banish paper from the cockpit, but not something to bet your life on. I have upgraded to the Pro version and will test the geo-referenced taxi diagrams this weekend. (I don't care as much about geo-referenced IAPs since my panel has an 480/MX-20 combo, but I can see where those still flying needles would enjoy some extra info.)

[danb35]

Quote: flight2000

I'm not familiar enough with EFB certification, so will reserve judgement on what we can and cannot get away with during part 91 ops.

[flight2000]

Quote: danb35

Now, if you want a legal GPS for IFR operations, that's another question entirely.

[jlunseth]

Well, I asked the original question because I was interested in buying the newest version of Foreflight and a subscription to the georeferenced charts.  So I did.  It looks really nice in my living room.  I found that my fireplace is at the start of the RNAV 10L to KFCM.  I especially like the weather displays.  But I gather I will lose the weather stuff in the air (no data connection).  I have that on the aircraft moving map though. 

So I will be trying it out.  The Geo referencing does appear to work well.  Remains to be seen how good it is in the air.  But not relying on it for primary, I have that in the plane already.

[carusoam]

I have had very good reception and accuracy at 12,000 ft.

I have had less accuracy inside the cabin of a commercial jet liner.  Accuracy from inside a hotel room (15 ft from window) is within a 1/2 mile.

accuracy of the internal antenna can be significantly affected by the shadows created by the structure of the aircraft.  I have not used a mount.  I am using my Ipad for situational awareness, KLN90B for IFR nav.

Best regards,

 

-a-

[Bob]

Sounds like the new IPAD is set to be out on March 2nd???

[TLSDriver]

Quote: FlyDave

I have a writeup that I need to finish and post on ForeFlight, SkyCharts Pro and the SkyRadar app and ADS-B receiver. I hope to have that done this weekend.

I have found the iPad internal GPS a little flakey at times.

The SkyRadar ADS-B reveiver has a WAAS GPS receiver and commnicates with the iPad via WLAN. 

[Bob]

Saturday morning I am attending a seminar:  "Electronic Flight Bag (EFB) Options for the Private Pilot"
Topic: Learn about EFB products and regulations regarding use of electronics charts

Please PM me with any Ipad questions that you would like answered.

[FlyDave]

Quote: TLSDriver

 

I havent been able to locate more info on using SkyRadar and an Ipad.  Can you point me in that directon?  Sounds like it could be a winning solution.

[dcrogers11]

Just ordered and received External GPS plug-in for my wifi Ipad from a company called Bad Elf.  Will try it out with WingX tomorrow on short flight to South Texas.  Have tried it on the ground and all seems to be working.  

[eldeano]

I have been flying across the country this week, and the foreflight app and bad elf gps have been great. We have been flight planning on the paper charts. Getting weather on the aera, and following the pink line on the ipad.  We also put the direct to info into the gps on the panel.  But we have been doing vfr flying in some marginal areas and it is nice to flick the charts around, look at what airports are around and just overfly them like stepping stones so we always have an option.  Also it is nice to just take it into the FBOs as almost all of them have wi-fi, and with the weather options on foreflight, especially the ceilings map, it helps you plan ahead.  Also having the TAFs translated and in local time is nice.  When we come up to unfamiliar airports it is nice to just click on the airports page, taxiways and get a diagram of the airport.  Also all of your frequencies are right there as well as FBO info. You quickly become very good at navigating around in the app, then you wondered how you ever lived without it.  

It would be nice to have terrain info like the skycharts app, but otherwise I would highly recommend it.

[DaV8or]

I've been using the iPad in flight now since January. I have it set up kneeboard style and it's working pretty well to do what I wanted it to do, replace paper. It's preflight capabilities are very good, however I still find myself going to the web for some info. I prefer AOPAs flight planner for trying out basic routing and of course airnav. I have had the internal GPS fail on me at altitudes under 10,000 feet. The georef charts are neat, but I have learned to not count on them. Basically I expect to have the same as I did with paper sectionals except without all the folding and this is what I have.

Where Foreflight (and others) are seriously lacking IMO is after you are on the ground. For over a decade I have been using Pilots Guide for my airport info. In that book they have detailed taxi diagrams for all airports and airport diagrams that show exactly where everything is on the field. All you get with Foreflight (and everybody else to my knowledge) is the lame AF/D diagram that the government makes. Smaller fields you get nothing. I love the Pilots Guide, but I would love to lose the book in the cockpit and have it on my iPad. Unfortunately, the company that makes the Pilots Guide, Optima Publications, is too lame to have come out with an iPad ap and they say that someday in the future they will, but can't say when. Foreflight should be partnering with Optima instead of AOPA for their airport info.

I eagerly await a taxi diagram and airport info solution from somebody.

[DaV8or]

Quote: JimR

Have you tried, Flight Guide, Dave?  I'm not familiar with Pilots Guide, but Flight Guide is pretty darn good for airport directory information.  I've been a Flight Guide paper subscriber for years but have not renewed now that they changed their paper products to a larger format.  I probably will subscribe to their new iPad application, however, when I decide to upgrade to an iPad from my iPod Touch.  I think that the iPod Touch screen is just too small to effectively read airport directory information. 

Jim

[fantom]

Quote: JimR

Thanks again for the information about Pilots Guide.

[jlunseth]

I took my first long distance trip with the iPad, Minneapolis to Booneville, AR on Monday and then back on Tuesday.  I have the new georeferenced Foreflight chart subscription and the 3G iPad.  I have to say, it worked flawlessly, except of the few moments of inattention when I let my hand touch the pad inadvertently.  Not a big deal, I have one of the kneeboards with a cover that swings over to prevent this, I just don't always do it.

The aircraft appeared on the chart and the position was exact, for the entire route both ways.  My plane is /G with an AP and roll steering, so I let the GPS drive the airplane.  However, I also have an ADF and a number two VOR, so for something to do I looked up all the ADF and VOR frequencies along the route and used them to let me know when I was making passage to the east or west of the various Navaids.  Probably not something I would do on every trip, but it was kind of fun and interesting.  Found lots of NDB's working in Missouri and Minnesota, lots of them not broadcasting in IA.

Would be nice to get the weather on the iPad while up in the plane, because the display is so good.  But I get that on the MX20 so not a big deal to me.

No overheating or loss of power and plenty of battery to make the trip, which was four hours coming back, plus preflight planning.  The iPad had 24% power left on landing and I had about another hour of fuel in the tanks, so I think it would go as long as the tanks will.

[LFOD]

New iPad has a three axis gyro built into it... Interested to see what can be done with that aviation wise.

[DaV8or]

Quote: LFOD

New iPad has a three axis gyro built into it... Interested to see what can be done with that aviation wise.

[fantom]

The iPad 2 has been completely redesigned and features a new dual-core A5 chip, which is twice as fast as the A4, while still using the same low power.  It also provides up to nine-times faster graphics and has both a rear-and front-facing camera for video as well as the gyroscope already found in the iPhone and iPod touch.

Design-wise, the new tablet is 33% thinner, cut down from 13.4mm to 8.8mm. This is thinner than the iPhone 4, which is 9.3mm. It's also lighter at 1.3 pounds, compared to the original 1.5 pounds.  Despite the design changes, Jobs said the tablets will have the same 10-hour battery life as the first iPad as well as the same price points, starting at $499 for the 16GB WiFi-only model.

Apple will begin shipping the new tablet starting mid March. Some other new features include the ability to hook it up to a TV using HDMI with an optional adapter and compatibility with a new "Smart Cover" accessory that, using magnets, automatically wakes the device when its opened.  

[Immelman]

Just a quick cautionary note on the iPad and GPS position:

I use an iPad with external BadElf GPS. I use a variety of charting applications including SkyCharts and ForeFlight.

I've personally seen the ipad lie to me in terms of position vs. stated position error. In short a > 500 ft position discrepancy when the app I was using told me I had a good GPS signal with < 10m accuracy.

For these reasons I believe that until the bugs are worked out, its not to be trusted for precise location information.

Don't get me wrong -- I love the ipad as a charting and display device. I've been using it in that aspect since it came out last April... just dont' go counting on it for an accurate geo-ref position when you're taxiing or shooting an approach.

Also, here's a video someone posted to the AOPA forum exhibiting this: