M016576 Posted June 6, 2017 Report Posted June 6, 2017 M's are nice. Particularly if you're happy to go up into the FL's Ive thought often about "upgrading" out of my Missile... to either a twin or a Bravo. I can't find a way to justify it, though, from a cost or mission perspective. Flight aware my tail (301tv). my missile (similar performance to an O) trues out at 175kts while 25 deg LOP at 11k... all while burning 11.6 GPH... If I go ROP (13.2GPH), I get about 182 true. You get 8-10 knots more out of a bravo at those altitudes, but you burn 35% more fuel. The missile has a climb at 800fpm at 11k (nowhere near as good as a turbo'd or twin), but the climb time difference ends up being only about 5-10 minutes to 18K, maybe a little more. Don is correct, climbs above 11K are slow in any NA aircraft. And the bravo is faster over distance if you need to go higher. But for your stated missions (day, limited IMC, gliding distance from fields, majority of flights below 12.5k (oxygen levels), you're going to be happy with the Ovation. 1 Quote
carusoam Posted June 6, 2017 Report Posted June 6, 2017 (edited) Go O! 800' take-off run, GPS measured, lightly loaded, 310 hp, PP skills only. Kids fit in the back until you can't fly for whatever age related issue you can come up with.... Steps to consider. 1) Long Body or not... Job's Missile is worth considering. 300hp in a mid Body Mooney. 2) NA, TC'd, or TN'd... your choice 3) Ultimate performance comes from 310hp that is Turbo Normalized. Few examples available for sale. 4) Do you like the oxygen levels? 5) Do you like the added complexity of engine operations? (Not a requirement to be highly technical. Just need to like what you are doing) 6) I went Normally Aspirated because it meets my requirements. 7) If I had the dough for an Acclaim with 310hp, I would happily change my requirements. 8) Find a way to get a ride in a Mooney with 300+hp. No special instruments required. Any seat of the pants will work. 9) Even the 280hp O1 only uses 1200' T/O roll. Not as nice as 800', but works pretty well on shorter runways... 10) you have heard from three long body pilots... an accountant, an engineer, and a musician. No pro pilot skills required! 11) It is possible to fly a TC'd Mooney very close to the economics of a NA Mooney. It just takes a lot of self control to not push all the knobs forward and leave them there.... Enjoy the hunt! Best regards, -a- Edited June 6, 2017 by carusoam Quote
MooneyMitch Posted June 6, 2017 Report Posted June 6, 2017 Hey! I'm a musician and an engineer Ovation vs TLS...... great airplanes..... seems to boil down to mission profile. We're setting up an Ovation ride for cornfield. 1 Quote
donkaye Posted June 6, 2017 Report Posted June 6, 2017 2 hours ago, M016576 said: M's are nice. Particularly if you're happy to go up into the FL's Ive thought often about "upgrading" out of my Missile... to either a twin or a Bravo. I can't find a way to justify it, though, from a cost or mission perspective. There is no "justifying" anything about airplane ownership or many other things in life you want. There's also nothing to feel guilty about. If you can afford it, want it, then get it. I can get away with saying that because of perspective. It wasn't too many years ago when I was one of the youngest on the block figuratively speaking. Now I'm one of the oldest. So I can truly say I have perspective. Let me give just a couple of examples of the many I have experienced. I once bought a house in the best area of the Bay Area where many of the Silicon Valley billionaires live now. By today's standards I paid nothing practically for it. I lived in it for a year and started to feel uncomfortable about owing such a big house. I sold it for a small gain in 1975. Today that house would go for about 20 million dollars. Perspective. But I really learned about perspective over the past 17 years. On a recommendation from a financial newsletter I put some money in an EFT in the year 2000. It turns out I had bought it at the high and in short order the technology bubble burst. I wrote the publisher a nasty letter. Then I said to myself how much could I lose and be able to sleep at night. I decided half, so when it went down 10%, I sold half of what I put in. The balance dropped another 60% and I figured "Well that's the end of that", but I still slept well. I held on for the next 17 years and about 2 years ago I broke even. I thought, "Well that's interesting" and let it ride. It's now up over 120%. Perspective. (I haven't sent him a thank you letter yet, although I've been thinking about it). And finally there is my life's Real Estate Story. Except to say I tried to talk some of my fellow Engineers into doing what I was starting to do and no one would listen, I'll leave that story for another day. But there is the most perspective in that one and it allows me to have the magic of flight be such a large part of my life today. I guess what I"m trying to say is that looking back from my perspective today, the idea of having to think about justifying something that you really want (and can afford) just makes no sense to me now. So will it be a Bravo or Ovation? 5 Quote
L. Trotter Posted June 6, 2017 Report Posted June 6, 2017 Personal experience the past year....I faced the same dilemma. Turbo vs. NA? I talk myself into the Ovation 3 thinking the extra HP would allow me to "go a little higher", have less maintenance and be a little more efficient on fuel. I live in SD and travel both directions. Going west, I needed to get over the mountains with sufficient altitude to glide to safety if needed. Going east I found myself wishing I could go higher to get over weather (particularly in winter). The extra HP of the O3 did not seem to really translate in to a higher curse altitude. The O3 loves around 12K. Yes it will go higher, but it really starts to poop out. It's take off performance is nothing less than spectacular! Don't get me wrong...the O3 was an absolute dream to fly. I just seemed to be flying the O3 at 95% of it's capability all the time. I had little "extra" performance left to call upon if needed. After a year, I moved over to the turbo version of the O3...The Acclaim. The turbo version is just starting to show off it's performance at 12K. I can't tell you how nice it is to point the noise up, and watch your altimeter continue a rather brisk upward spin. Truth be told, I now fly 14-18K routinely with significant performance left to call upon. I now fly at 60% of the planes capability. I am enjoying the added performance margin the turbo offers. I should have purchased my 2nd plane 1st. The real answer as to which way to go (turbo vs. NA)is really based on your typical mission (as others have stated). I suspect that as you get back into flying you will be using your plane more and more (hopefully) and will enjoy the added capabilities the turbo offers, particularly flying the west coast with it's many mountainous areas. 4 Quote
JohnB Posted June 6, 2017 Report Posted June 6, 2017 If I had the choice between a Bravo and an Ovation, no question I would choose a Bravo. I'm in Southern CA. I used to fly only NA airplanes, and once I started flying my Turbo, I would have a hard time going back to a normally aspirated airplane. Both are awesome planes, but personally, I feel the Bravo is one of the most versatile airplanes in GA today. (I am totally biased since I own one). When the weather allows and its more than an hour flight, I am usually flying at or above 11k when I can. But even if I don't need to go to 18k for all of my missions, its wonderful to have the freedom to go wherever you wish; well over mountain ranges, to high density altitude airports, fly above turbulence layers, in cooler air on a hot day, well above clouds in mountainous terrain, and fly in an area where you have the sky pretty much to yourself (between 12k and 25k). Wearing oxygen is not a problem at all and inexpensive. If I want to fly low I can, or slower for better fuel economy I can but i usually don't.. If you have long distance range flights as your primary profile, then an Ovation will beat a Bravo hands down in range and fuel economy, but I have a maximum sitting down range of abut 3-3.5 hours, after which I need to get up and move, so even my Bravo's non-stop single flight endurance is much more than my sitting endurance. Yes you'll burn more avgas than an Ovation or J, but to me, the speed, comfort, and versatility of the M make it worth it. Do I need a turbo for all of my flights? Of course not, but it sure is nice to have when you need or want it. But with whatever you get, as long as you get a Mooney, you'll be good! John 2 Quote
Danb Posted June 6, 2017 Report Posted June 6, 2017 8 hours ago, aviatoreb said: I've been in a Bravo - no knocks. But curious Dan - what is your obvious reason for Lycoming over continental? IMOO. Many continentals have premature cylinder failures, my mini brain has been raised on lycomings. In 30+ years of flying lycomings I've never yet changed a jug. I really believe it's either the way I fly and treat the plane,must be the bulletproof, design. Just my opinion. Although it's a gas hog. Please be advised I'm a Mooney guy through and through, love every Mooney ever built. I actually bought the B over the O and A based on the lycoming. Other than speed I wouldn't change my decision. Almost bought a nice PBaron didn't because of the engines. Quote
ilovecornfields Posted June 6, 2017 Author Report Posted June 6, 2017 There is no "justifying" anything about airplane ownership or many other things in life you want. There's also nothing to feel guilty about. If you can afford it, want it, then get it. I can get away with saying that because of perspective. It wasn't too many years ago when I was one of the youngest on the block figuratively speaking. Now I'm one of the oldest. So I can truly say I have perspective. Let me give just a couple of examples of the many I have experienced. I once bought a house in the best area of the Bay Area where many of the Silicon Valley billionaires live now. By today's standards I paid nothing practically for it. I lived in it for a year and started to feel uncomfortable about owing such a big house. I sold it for a small gain in 1975. Today that house would go for about 20 million dollars. Perspective. But I really learned about perspective over the past 17 years. On a recommendation from a financial newsletter I put some money in an EFT in the year 2000. It turns out I had bought it at the high and in short order the technology bubble burst. I wrote the publisher a nasty letter. Then I said to myself how much could I lose and be able to sleep at night. I decided half, so when it went down 10%, I sold half of what I put in. The balance dropped another 60% and I figured "Well that's the end of that", but I still slept well. I held on for the next 17 years and about 2 years ago I broke even. I thought, "Well that's interesting" and let it ride. It's now up over 120%. Perspective. (I haven't sent him a thank you letter yet, although I've been thinking about it). And finally there is my life's Real Estate Story. Except to say I tried to talk some of my fellow Engineers into doing what I was starting to do and no one would listen, I'll leave that story for another day. But there is the most perspective in that one and it allows me to have the magic of flight be such a large part of my life today. I guess what I"m trying to say is that looking back from my perspective today, the idea of having to think about justifying something that you really want (and can afford) just makes no sense to me now. So will it be a Bravo or Ovation? Right now I'm leaning toward the Ovation. I have about 450 hours in an Arrow II so I think it will be an easier transition to the Ovation and it will be sufficiently more plane than the Arrow to keep me satisfied for a while. If I end up feeling like we've outgrown it in the next few years then it may be time to look into a Bravo (or twin!) at that point. Now if I could only find an instructor for my transition training. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote
aviatoreb Posted June 6, 2017 Report Posted June 6, 2017 2 hours ago, Danb said: IMOO. Many continentals have premature cylinder failures, my mini brain has been raised on lycomings. In 30+ years of flying lycomings I've never yet changed a jug. I really believe it's either the way I fly and treat the plane,must be the bulletproof, design. Just my opinion. Although it's a gas hog. Please be advised I'm a Mooney guy through and through, love every Mooney ever built. I actually bought the B over the O and A based on the lycoming. Other than speed I wouldn't change my decision. Almost bought a nice PBaron didn't because of the engines. Ah - that's quite true - Continental cylinders are crap. Its well documented - its the fit and finish of the valves are low quality when factory new. The trick that seems to work, so says lots of anecdote is to never use factory new continental cylinders. Rather, either use another brand of cylinders and or have them rehoned by a boutique top tier shop even though they are new. With this I have read that many people run tbo on their cylinders. That's a major nuisance, I know. But there that's a solution. Once you have a good setup, the continental is a sweet running engine. Another consideration in this discussion if just discussing engines, the lycoming TIO540 is dramatically more expensive to overhaul than the Tsio520 or tsio550. Something like 20k more isn't it? That said, I wouldn't turn my nose up to an overall good M20M if I were shopping, not for a second. Quote
gsengle Posted June 6, 2017 Report Posted June 6, 2017 Right now I'm leaning toward the Ovation. I have about 450 hours in an Arrow II so I think it will be an easier transition to the Ovation and it will be sufficiently more plane than the Arrow to keep me satisfied for a while. If I end up feeling like we've outgrown it in the next few years then it may be time to look into a Bravo (or twin!) at that point. Now if I could only find an instructor for my transition training. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Contact MAPA for transition instructors and to take a PPP, highly recommended.http://www.mapasafety.com/Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote
MooneyMitch Posted June 6, 2017 Report Posted June 6, 2017 May I suggest Don Kaye (see his posting on this thread) for Mooney specific training. 1 Quote
ilovecornfields Posted June 6, 2017 Author Report Posted June 6, 2017 May I suggest Don Kaye (see his posting on this thread) for Mooney specific training. Sorry, I was actually replying to Don Kaye's post. I apologize for my poor attempt at humor.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote
carqwik Posted June 6, 2017 Report Posted June 6, 2017 My decision between the two (back in 2001) was this simple: Am I going to go above 12k' on a regular basis? If yes, go with the Bravo. If no, then the Ovation. Being located in Scottsdale, with a bunch of trips in the West, I thought the M20M was better suited. (Btw, I had lots of experience with the 252 years ago in California...loved that plane!) I have found that to be the case on any trip where terrain is a factor...the Bravo is best in the mid-teens to FL200. But having also flown an Ovation, it's a real performer as well up to about 10k'...and faster than the Bravo at those altitudes. My Lycoming seemingly is bulletproof...but I don't run it hard except for takeoff and cruise climb power. Very happy with the plane. Quote
MooneyMitch Posted June 6, 2017 Report Posted June 6, 2017 My oversight on your humor, it's good and appreciated.........I simply missed your wink emoto . Quote
MooneyMitch Posted June 6, 2017 Report Posted June 6, 2017 With regard to Continental cylinders, and with my experience at my recent overhaul on the IO 550G , I did use new Continental cylinders. Prior to assembly on the engine, the cylinders were disassembled and valve/valve guide/piston and piston ring fitment were checked and corrected as needed by PowerMasters ( my engine builder). Standard practice by this builder on TCM cylinders. This was also done on the previous engine rebuild which I believe contributed to that engine reaching 2400 hours without cylinder work (oh yes, I repeat myself, and not wishing to start a rukus....... the engine was operated LOP its entire life ). 4 Quote
gsengle Posted June 6, 2017 Report Posted June 6, 2017 With regard to Continental cylinders, and with my experience at my recent overhaul on the IO 550G , I did use new Continental cylinders. Prior to assembly on the engine, the cylinders were disassembled and valve/valve guide/piston and piston ring fitment were checked and corrected as needed by PowerMasters ( my engine builder). Standard practice by this builder on TCM cylinders. This was also done on the previous engine rebuild which I believe contributed to that engine reaching 2400 hours without cylinder work (oh yes, I repeat myself, and not wishing to start a rukus....... the engine was operated LOP its entire life ). Yep I'm exceeding TBO currently with original cyl and I operate LOP Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 Quote
MooneyMitch Posted June 6, 2017 Report Posted June 6, 2017 More info on my 2400 engine, it was trending down at o/h decision time, with most compressions in the mid to lower 50's. Oil consumption was 1quart 8 hours and the engine ran terrific still. We'd borescope each 100 hours, finding no issues and no cross hatch marks inside the cylinder walls...... those babies were well broken in for sure (and obviously quite happy as they chugged along over the years). Great service and performance from the IO550G! Terrific engine, in my experience and in my opinion. 2 Quote
MooneyMitch Posted June 6, 2017 Report Posted June 6, 2017 12 minutes ago, gsengle said: Yep I'm exceeding TBO currently with original cyl and I operate LOP Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Please keep us in the loop on your engine longevity. Congratulations on this! Quote
Bravoman Posted June 6, 2017 Report Posted June 6, 2017 8 hours ago, donkaye said: There is no "justifying" anything about airplane ownership or many other things in life you want. There's also nothing to feel guilty about. If you can afford it, want it, then get it. I can get away with saying that because of perspective. It wasn't too many years ago when I was one of the youngest on the block figuratively speaking. Now I'm one of the oldest. So I can truly say I have perspective. Let me give just a couple of examples of the many I have experienced. I once bought a house in the best area of the Bay Area where many of the Silicon Valley billionaires live now. By today's standards I paid nothing practically for it. I lived in it for a year and started to feel uncomfortable about owing such a big house. I sold it for a small gain in 1975. Today that house would go for about 20 million dollars. Perspective. But I really learned about perspective over the past 17 years. On a recommendation from a financial newsletter I put some money in an EFT in the year 2000. It turns out I had bought it at the high and in short order the technology bubble burst. I wrote the publisher a nasty letter. Then I said to myself how much could I lose and be able to sleep at night. I decided half, so when it went down 10%, I sold half of what I put in. The balance dropped another 60% and I figured "Well that's the end of that", but I still slept well. I held on for the next 17 years and about 2 years ago I broke even. I thought, "Well that's interesting" and let it ride. It's now up over 120%. Perspective. (I haven't sent him a thank you letter yet, although I've been thinking about it). And finally there is my life's Real Estate Story. Except to say I tried to talk some of my fellow Engineers into doing what I was starting to do and no one would listen, I'll leave that story for another day. But there is the most perspective in that one and it allows me to have the magic of flight be such a large part of my life today. I guess what I"m trying to say is that looking back from my perspective today, the idea of having to think about justifying something that you really want (and can afford) just makes no sense to me now. So will it be a Bravo or Ovation? Or to summarize, we all only go around one time! Quote
MooneyMitch Posted June 6, 2017 Report Posted June 6, 2017 Yep, this life is not a rehearsal my friends...... it's the performance so make it terrific! And, as a friend told me awhile back, "Mitch, you know you are in the 4th quarter". Of course this advice applies to geezers such as myself, but it's also something for younger folks to consider. Life is short and it goes by faster than a Mooney!! I do hope for quality overtime though 1 Quote
kmyfm20s Posted June 6, 2017 Report Posted June 6, 2017 This thread is like a crack addict (turbo flyer) telling a cocaine addict (NA flyer) their missing out on something better;) 4 Quote
gsengle Posted June 6, 2017 Report Posted June 6, 2017 This thread is like a crack addict (turbo flyer) telling a cocaine addict (NA flyer) their missing out on something better;) Pretty much. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote
Danb Posted June 6, 2017 Report Posted June 6, 2017 Bottom line its hard make a mistake with either gotta love our Mooneys 1 Quote
carusoam Posted June 6, 2017 Report Posted June 6, 2017 (edited) iLF Time to put a location in your avatar, if you can... Too many people have terrible memory skills around here. Best regards, -a- Edited June 6, 2017 by carusoam Quote
Jeff_S Posted June 6, 2017 Report Posted June 6, 2017 I thought I would repost this data I collected last year when I finally got my portable oxygen bottle and wanted to test my Ovation3's performance. Yes, it does lose power as you climb, but still seems to perform pretty well even into the mid teens. This was a hot Atlanta summer morning so DA's were even higher. Hope this helps. Altitude Climb and Cruise Performance.pdf 3 Quote
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