PREBUY/ANNUAL INSPECTION QUESTION

[airbusflyboy]

Hey ! First off ................. Happy New Year to all of you here on the forums !!! I hope we see something better for 2011, fingers are crossed ! 

OK, I need some strong opinions about trying to get an Annual inspection done at the same time a prebuy inspection is happening ............ I know there is a huge difference between the two, and I am just looking for answers from folks that have possibly gone this route on their way to ownership of a Mooney 20, we are looking at a Mooney 20 D on this. I have aleady talked to the mechanic that has been taking care of the aircraft, his recommendation was to get someone else involved on the inspection process and I value that advice ........................... I however am acutely aware that the Mooney airplanes require a bit more finesse in the inspection areas and I am trying to ensure that we get a good and accurate inspection done before purchase.

Thank you all !!!

[jlunseth]

The annual is controlled by the owner of the aircraft.  If you want someone looking out for you, I would suggest you get a pre-buy yourself, and I would try to have it done while the annual is still in progress so you can tell the current owner what needs to be fixed before you will buy the plane.  I tried the "annual in place of pre-buy" route, and it was about as crooked as they come.

[airbusflyboy]

Thank You !!! You bring up a good point ...................................... I should do a prebuy and then if we find discrepancies, have the owner fix them or bring down the price of the plane. I am mostly concerned with corrosion, he seems to have been keeping the maintenance up on the aircraft although this is what I have only learned from talking to him and his mechanic. I just want to make sure we don't skip something on this ..................... I understand that Mooney airplanes are trickier to inspect and catch problems with and requires someone that is very familiar with them. 

Thank you for your insight ............................. I do appreciate it ! Happy Holidays !!!

[jelswick]

I bought my first Mooney (M20C) as a student pilot and did it exactly wrong trusting the person doing the maintenance to do a pre-buy and annual and an IFR cert and I paid handsomely in the maintenance over the next few years getting the airplane to the shape it should have been (many, many thousands of dollars).  Since then I owned a company selling GA aircraft for about 6 years and swore none of our customers would ever go through what I did.  It is in your best interest to get someone outside the current ownership and maintenance and if an owner balks at that, walk away from that aircraft and you'll find another.  A few options:

1.  Best in my opinion would be to have it flown to the nearest Mooney Service Center for a pre-purchase and expect to pay the cost associated with doing that since it's for your benefit.

2.  Bring it to you (expect to pay for the costs associated with this) or take your mechanic that will be maintaining it to do the pre-buy.  That will be the person doing the squawks on your aircraft when you get it home at your annuals, so it's good if they can get a look at it to start.

3.  If the above two are not an option due to distance or whatever, then get some reputable Mooney maintenance person nearby to go do the inspection for you.  If you can let us know on here where you're located, we probably have opinions for a lot of the parts of the country in this forum from someone that lives near enough that can recommend someone to do this for you.

A couple of notes on the expectations of how issues found are addressed that I think are reasonable to both the buyer and the seller... If what is found is an airworthiness item, the owner should fix it and pay for it.  If it is non-airworthiness, but was disclosed, these are used aircraft and normal wear (not abuse) is normal, I wouldn't expect the owner to drop anything from the price for it.  If it wasn't disclosed, again, it's not a new aircraft and the severity of the issue should guide you in whether it's appropriate to expect the owner to pay for it.  If it was known by the owner/broker and hidden and found in the inspection, walk away from the aircraft and find another because you don't know what else they might be hiding (e.g. a recent Mooney was on e-Bay that had been through a gear-up and later submerged, none of it noted in the logs according to the seller and the seller was claiming no damage history).  

If handled fairly, this should be a fun and educational process for you on your potential new to you Mooney.  There's nothing like getting home with your new aircraft in the world in my opinion, but do the due diligence and you'll thank yourself each time your annuals come out reasonably within where they should be.  There are some of the most wonderful people in the world working in the aviation industry selling and maintaining our Mooneys, but there are also unfortunately a few that are some of the most unscrupulous.  Sorry for the book of a response, but just want to make sure you don't end up dealing with the latter or having an experience like my first aircraft purchase.  Best of luck with the Mooney and Happy New Year!

[jelswick]

It does sound like you're likely dealing with good people trying to do the right thing though if the person currently doing the maintenance is encouraging you to get someone else to do the inspection.  He's right and I'd still insist on getting someone not attached to the aircraft, but I think that's a good faith gesture on his part if he's suggesting it too.

[231Pilot]

If possible get pre-buy done by an MSC or a shop with a lot of Mooney experience...just use someone other than the people who have been maintaining the aircraft.  If the pre-buy is satisfactory, you can have it completed as an annual (for extra money, of course) and then you will be flying home in a plane with a fresh annual.  If there are issues in the pre-buy that the owner doesn't wish to resolve, walk away and consider the cost of the inspection a good investment, or negotiate an appropriate decrease in the selling price and have the issues resolved during the annual.

[231Pilot]

If possible get pre-buy done by an MSC or a shop with a lot of Mooney experience...just use someone other than the people who have been maintaining the aircraft.  If the pre-buy is satisfactory, you can have it completed as an annual (for extra money, of course) and then you will be flying home in a plane with a fresh annual.  If there are issues in the pre-buy that the owner doesn't wish to resolve, walk away and consider the cost of the inspection a good investment, or negotiate an appropriate decrease in the selling price and have the issues resolved during the annual.

[231Pilot]

Funny, I only wrote it once, only submitted it once, yet I see it on the forum twice.  Go figure.......

[fantom]

Give Don Maxwell in Longview Texas (KGGG) a call. He knows more about Mooneys than anyone you'll find locally.

[airbusflyboy]

Hey guys ...................... Many Thanks !!! I don't feel uncomfortable with the folks that I have been talking with about the plane, but of course, I have not seen any of it either !!! I understand the recommendations here, they make good, rational sense. I have been looking around for a good bit now, lots of time spent on computer searches, some title searches, phone calls, etc. If we go through with this ..................... will let you know here what happened ! 

[RJBrown]

I have been involved with 4 Mooney sales contracts.

In 1994 I had Arapahoe Aero, the local MSC, do the prebuy on N231NH. Everything went great. I paid for the prebuy and bought the plane.

In 2003 I sold N231NH. The buyer was in San Francisco. He paid me to fly it to Stockton for a prebuy from Top Gun. The plane passed the prebuy and the buyer converted it to an annual at his expense after he bought it.

In Jan 2009 I had N800MS under contract. It was in Texas. I had US Aviation in Denton do the prebuy. It failed miserably and the seller refused to bring it to an airworthy condition. The terms of the contract allowed me to walk away without paying for the prebuy. The contract was off of First Pryority Bank's website and protected me from a plane that was misrepresented.

In March of 2009 I bought N1079V. The seller agreed to bring it to my shop Arapahoe Aero. He paid for the annual and to assure that all installed equipment worked properly. Once the plane was repaired to my satisfaction I bought it.

As you can see each sale was different. In todays market the buyer generally has the advantage. Use it to protect yourself and find the perfect Mooney.

[airbusflyboy]

Hey Randy ......................... Thank you !!! I will check that bank site out and see what they have for contract. I know that a lot has to be understood before the ball gets rolling ......................................

[eldeano]

I did a pre-buy/ annual.  To make it worse I did it at the owners home airport (I live 2200 miles away).  The owner had scanned the log books and emailed them to me, so I picked the one A&P that hadn't worked on the plane.  When I talked to him he suggested a pre-buy, then if things looked good we could convert it to an annual, and thats what we did.  The thing was, the plane had been maintained at Lake Aero for ten years, including a new motor in 08, new prop in 06 so I had a bit of confidence the plane was in good shape.  I called the A&P that did the previous annual just to try and get some info about the plane. 

If I had felt the owner wasn't being forthcoming, or I had a feeling something was wrong, I would have found a Mooney guy to do the pre-buy.  Like has been mentioned earlier, a couple of thousand now can save you tens-of-thousands later.

We used AOPA contracts and escrow account to hold the money until the conditions of the sale were met.

[FlyingAggie]

I had LASAR perform a prebuy inspection with an option to convert the prebuy into an annual if I decided to buy.  They had no past history with the plane.   LASAR credited the $1800 pre-buy fee toward the $2500 annual fee.  The prebuy and annual have different objectives, but both involve opening up all the inspection ports on the plane.  I spent a week at LASAR participating in the prebuy and then after the purchase decision was made assisting in the annual.  It was a great way to get to know the plane and find all the warts.  In the first eight months of ownership, the only surprise squawk has been replacing the engine driven fuel pump.

I used my AOPA legal services entitlement to have a local aviation attorney review and customize the AOPA sample purchase contract agreement.   I then used the AOPA Title and Escrow Service to manage the closing.

I was very satisified with the way the deal went down.

Good luck with your purchase.

[eldeano]

Quote: FlyingAggie

I had LASAR perform a prebuy inspection with an option to convert the prebuy into an annual if I decided to buy.  They had no past history with the plane.   LASAR credited the $1800 pre-buy fee toward the $2500 annual fee.  The prebuy and annual have different objectives, but both involve opening up all the inspection ports on the plane.  I spent a week at LASAR participating in the prebuy and then after the purchase decision was made assisting in the annual.  It was a great way to get to know the plane and find all the warts.  In the first eight months of ownership, the only surprise squawk has been replacing the engine driven fuel pump.

I used my AOPA legal services entitlement to have a local aviation attorney review and customize the AOPA sample purchase contract agreement.   I then used the AOPA Title and Escrow Service to manage the closing.

I was very satisified with the way the deal went down.

Good luck with your purchase.

[airbusflyboy]

Once again, many Thank you to all of you who have responded !!! I have gleaned a lot of good information here and I am a current AOPA member with Legal services, so I understand where I have to go with this now. I just talked to a guy this afternoon in Colorado, he has the very same airplane ......................... MOONEY 20 D MASTER, but his was converted to retractable model. Interesting ............................. looks to me that a lot of the Mooney 20 D Masters went that direction !

Happy New Year !!!

[DaV8or]

Quote: airbusflyboy

I just talked to a guy this afternoon in Colorado, he has the very same airplane ......................... MOONEY 20 D MASTER, but his was converted to retractable model. Interesting ............................. looks to me that a lot of the Mooney 20 D Masters went that direction !

[airbusflyboy]

Hi Dave ................. True, I don't believe it should be converted at this point either, you can buy a lot of gas for the amount that it would cost to convert it !!! I don't know that this makes the plane especially collectible, either, but it is interesting that it has survived intact without being cut ....................... I am not planning to buy the plane as a collectible, rather to fly it !!! Only concern I have at the moment is the plane not being flown a lot since the factory reman in 1993 but they have flown it. 

[airbusflyboy]

Hi Dave ................. True, I don't believe it should be converted at this point either, you can buy a lot of gas for the amount that it would cost to convert it !!! I don't know that this makes the plane especially collectible, either, but it is interesting that it has survived intact without being cut ....................... I am not planning to buy the plane as a collectible, rather to fly it !!! Only concern I have at the moment is the plane not being flown a lot since the factory reman in 1993 but they have flown it. 

[richardheitzman]

Great advice all, and the best is the comment that the Prebuy is for the potential buyer, and the annual is for the owner. NEVER confuse that. Get a prebuy done with the correct contracts that let you walk if the prebuy shows anything that the owner won't fix or adjust the price.

M20D aircraft were a marketing gimmick to entice those pilots who were hesitant of a complex aircraft (variable prop AND retract) so they sold the M20D with the OPTION of converting to retract (making it a M20C) so there are very few M20D fixed left out there. They are a novelty only, no real collectability.

Good luck

 

[airbusflyboy]

I concur .......................... but I did talk to a guy yesterday with a converted M20 D Master ................. the airplane for all intents and purposes does become a 20 C but the 20 D designation stays with the FAA records as such. Yea, not sure about the plane being just that, a collectible piece, and not sure why everyone is so worried about it being converted however I just would not do it on the basis of cost on return ........................................ Although don't like the current prices of fuel, still you can buy a lot of it for the cost of a conversion !!!