Mr Bill Posted December 27, 2016 Report Posted December 27, 2016 Has the SUCTION SCREEN been checked? 1 Quote
MooneyBob Posted December 27, 2016 Author Report Posted December 27, 2016 25 minutes ago, Mr Bill said: Has the SUCTION SCREEN been checked? Not yet. Next oil change. Quote
MB65E Posted December 28, 2016 Report Posted December 28, 2016 All engines make metal! Some just do it at faster rates than others. Check the screens and filters regularly, change the oil even more regularly. Finally, if it helps you sleep at night pull an oil sample now and then. Your filter is doing exactly what is is supposed to do. -Matt Quote
carusoam Posted December 28, 2016 Report Posted December 28, 2016 Test your neighbor's oil with those really strong magnets... test some fresh oil with any additives that you use... We may be seeing an oddity of using the strong magnets and collecting something that isn't iron/steal related... I'm not sure what the magnet actually collected, but it may be too strong for the standard magnet test of the oil. wondering if something is falling out of solution more than a regular magnet can pull..? oil testing is so sensitive to everying else. Shiny metal specks cause the heart to skip a beat. A teaspooon of metal flakes causes the heart to sink. Unknown things in the oil can leave you with an unknown feeling. Rubber bits in your oil mean you have a Continental starter adapter that needs to be replaced. Plastic bits means somebody didn't take the security ring off the bottle of oil before turning it upside down... Check to see if your strong magnet is doing more than expected... PP thoughts, not a mechanic. Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
Andy95W Posted December 28, 2016 Report Posted December 28, 2016 I'm reluctant to try to give an opinion without having seen the filter contents for myself or the suction screen, and Clarence makes an excellent point about the damage that metal can wreak inside an engine. But therein lies the question: How much metal? The report said a "minor amount" of metal and "some flakes". As Matt pointed out above, that could describe nearly anyone's filter, depending upon how many flakes were actually there. And the oil analysis said that your Fe was high. As Dev noted above, so what. Now we're talking about iron at the molecular and microscopic level. The suction screen is the biggest unknown at this point. If there are pieces of metal (primarily iron/steel) in the suction screen, I'd begin work on the engine very soon. If not, putting your engine on an oil/filter change and inspection at a reduced interval (10 -15 hours or so) is a good idea, and it sounds like that is what you're doing. Mike Busch always advises to not perform unwarranted maintenance and he notoriously dislikes cylinder removals. I wonder what he would say in this case? 1 Quote
mooniac15u Posted December 28, 2016 Report Posted December 28, 2016 On December 26, 2016 at 11:22 PM, carusoam said: Do we know anyone with NMR experience? These are the people making medical images from using strong magnets.... I think we may have uncovered some particles can show a slight magnetic nature when exposed to a very strong magnet. It would be interesting if the photos of the 'carbon' bits being attracted to the magnet were sent to the oil experts. The guys that know what to look for in oil. ask if it is possible to magnetize carbon? Best regards, -a- NMR is based on interactions between protons and strong magnetic fields influenced by valence electrons as opposed to the overall ability of a material to be attracted by a magnet. 1 Quote
Mr Bill Posted December 28, 2016 Report Posted December 28, 2016 The suction screen should be the next item to check if metal is found in the filter or pressure screen. Often neglected because of location. I have seen them full of carbon, which will restrict oil flow. 2 Quote
Guest Posted December 28, 2016 Report Posted December 28, 2016 11 hours ago, Andy95W said: I'm reluctant to try to give an opinion without having seen the filter contents for myself or the suction screen, and Clarence makes an excellent point about the damage that metal can wreak inside an engine. But therein lies the question: How much metal? The report said a "minor amount" of metal and "some flakes". As Matt pointed out above, that could describe nearly anyone's filter, depending upon how many flakes were actually there. And the oil analysis said that your Fe was high. As Dev noted above, so what. Now we're talking about iron at the molecular and microscopic level. The suction screen is the biggest unknown at this point. If there are pieces of metal (primarily iron/steel) in the suction screen, I'd begin work on the engine very soon. If not, putting your engine on an oil/filter change and inspection at a reduced interval (10 -15 hours or so) is a good idea, and it sounds like that is what you're doing. Mike Busch always advises to not perform unwarranted maintenance and he notoriously dislikes cylinder removals. I wonder what he would say in this case? Mike Busch doesn't have to worry about bad cams and lifters, he has those magical self healing part that TCM puts in their engines. Clarence Quote
jetdriven Posted December 28, 2016 Report Posted December 28, 2016 Continental engines lifters can be removed for inspection. In fact checked two from a 2002 ovation getting a cylinder change, they had pitting and corrosion around the edge of the face and on the bore. I'd consider it mandatory for any prebuy now. Quote
mooniac15u Posted December 29, 2016 Report Posted December 29, 2016 On 12/25/2016 at 4:01 PM, MooneyBob said: That's exactly what I did two oil changes ago following your advice from different topic on MS. I used your method ( which I like a lot) and very strong rare earth magnets. It picked fair amount of " metallic substance ". Not really visible metal parts ( see picture) . But together with elevated metals in the oil and last filter analysis done by the AV Lab I will do compression check, borescope with good camera and probably pull the cylinder to check things out. As Clarence and DXB says it will not get better. Now I just have to diagnose the issue precisely so it is not waste of time and money to get it right. That looks like very fine iron filings. In the picture on the magnet they have that very characteristic look of filings stacking to follow the magnetic field. Quote
carusoam Posted December 30, 2016 Report Posted December 30, 2016 Other than being magnetic, Is there another handy test for iron? like an easy way to oxidize it and show a rust color, or something like that? Water quality stores might have something. The people that have water softener equipment, that kind of thing... Best regards, -a- Quote
astravierso Posted December 30, 2016 Report Posted December 30, 2016 Bob, Quick question, are you still interested in understanding the condition of your engine with the data you currently have. If so this will require you to provide all of the data you have on this engine. We can then apply standard practices used in Machinery Lubrication Analysis to better understand what's going on inside the black box that makes the fan on the front of your plane spin. If you are interested we can use you engine as a case study for the community. If not please let me know and I won't bother you on this again. Cheers, Quote
mooniac15u Posted December 30, 2016 Report Posted December 30, 2016 12 hours ago, carusoam said: Other than being magnetic, Is there another handy test for iron? like an easy way to oxidize it and show a rust color, or something like that? Water quality stores might have something. The people that have water softener equipment, that kind of thing... Best regards, -a- Seems like this (http://www.avlab.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=AVL-CK) would be the way to go if you really wanted to know. Given the limited number of ferromagnetic metals in an engine and the high levels of iron in the oil test report I'm not sure you would learn much. 1 Quote
MooneyBob Posted January 5, 2017 Author Report Posted January 5, 2017 On 12/30/2016 at 1:45 PM, astravierso said: Bob, Quick question, are you still interested in understanding the condition of your engine with the data you currently have. If so this will require you to provide all of the data you have on this engine. We can then apply standard practices used in Machinery Lubrication Analysis to better understand what's going on inside the black box that makes the fan on the front of your plane spin. If you are interested we can use you engine as a case study for the community. If not please let me know and I won't bother you on this again. Cheers, I am sorry I was out for few days. What data should I provide? I can go through log books and also send everything I know from previous owner. I also have pretty consistent oil analysis since I got the plane 3 years ago. Quote
MooneyBob Posted February 24, 2017 Author Report Posted February 24, 2017 I will continue on this topic. I was busy with my moving to Florida and other work related things. My engine got shipped today to Aero Engines of Winchester today. I had elevated metals in the oil according to the Blackstone lab, I found some metal flakes in the filter. I have removed two cylinders yesterday and found that lifters are like a surface of the moon. I could see some scars of the cam lobes too. After I have removed the engine I found metal in the governor screen and oil suction screen. Nothing crazy but it was there. So the governor and prop needs to be check ( both overhauled last annual). Engine is 973hrs since new in 1999 but previous owner put little hours for last 15 years. I have flown 500hrs last 3 years when it finally gave up. I will wait for the report from the shop and we will decide next steps. 1 Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.