Thoughts on this E?

[EagleDriver]

Still very green in the search; enough that when I look at ads and see a laundry list of avionics I don't know if that means unusably old or great!  It *seems* to be along the lines of what I'm looking for....anything stand out to the Mooney guru as bad news?

http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1456827/1967-mooney-m20e-super-21

[Yetti]

A little high on price.  Not 2020 compliant.  Workable GPS but old.  Need to know how much it has flown recently and have $10K in the bank to fix things after the purchase

[Hank]

Looks pretty good. The KX-155s should be serviceable for a while yet. No idea about the KMD 150 multifunction display. Some people like the KLN-94 GPS, but it will need updating soon.

Check the Mooney Flyer (www.themooneyflyer.com) for a link to a good, Mooney-specific valuation site.

It is incredibly expensive to buy, transfer the STC and install the S-TEC autopilot. But repair costs can also be high . . . People really like it. I've never used one, I have two Brittain units but no altitude hold other than my trim wheel.

Things to watch for:  SB-208 for water dripping around the windows, rusting the steel cage; tank sealant (a reseal will run ~7AMU); puck replacement, another AMU+. Check the logs and see how much it has flown each of the last 3-5 years, as inactivity risks engine corrosion and early overhaul (25-30 AMU total).

In my non-professional opinion, this plane looks good pending a little more investigation. Be glad someone has redone the left side of the panel, no more shotgun style layout!

[Heloman]

It's pretty but seems overpriced with that GPS. What year was the overhaul, how much has it flown in the last year, two years...?it may be a good value if the maintenance and condition are above average.


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[madjano]

Given the previous good advice, I'd say definitely worth looking at. I like my STEC-30, but VOR tracking is not the best, it scallops all the way, hi or lo. I can't advise on how it tracks GPSS... Someday.....
Price is always negotiable. Worst case, they say no, just dont make an emotional purchase. Oh, wait, this is aviation, and its all emotional.

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[MyNameIsNobody]

Nice updated paint and interior. It has two old but quality coms and an auto pilot. Engine and prop time are fine. Has it been flying?  Has it been flying?!  That is the key. Look at logs between annuals since overhaul.  If not flying at least 75 hours a year prepare for engine costs. If tanks have not been resealed they will...soon.  I like it with warning on lack of use. Not 2020 compliant so it will cost you multiple AMU's in next 3 years for update...

 

Have fun!

[bonal]

Looks like a nice example but of course it's what you can't see that matters most. Engine time looks good but is relevant to what year OH was done and times flown as others have said. Asking price is always negotiable. It certainly looks worth a closer look IMHO

[bonal]

Is the 2020 mandate still above 10k altitude, don't know why 10k and not 18k seems so random. Updating at some point but not an expense to worry about for a few years so can be easily budgeted 

[pinerunner]

I got my E model for $35K and the owner jumped on it when I offered $4K less than the $39K he was asking. This one has nicer speed mods, lower time, and an older non WAAS GPS. Within a couple years you'll want the upgrade to get WAAS capability and be 2020 compliant. I've been informally quoted $20K for that. So I'd drive a very hard bargain if I were buying right now.

Now if you or someone else actually pays that asking price I'll be happy to hear it. I may be able to recover more of the WAAS upgrade price than I currently anticipate. 

[mooniac15u]

1 minute ago, pinerunner said:

I got my E model for $35K and the owner jumped on it when I offered $4K less than the $39K he was asking. This one has nicer speed mods, lower time, and an older non WAAS GPS. Within a couple years you'll want the upgrade to get WAAS capability and be 2020 compliant. I've been informally quoted $20K for that. So I'd drive a very hard bargain if I were buying right now.

Now if you or someone else actually pays that asking price I'll be happy to hear it. I may be able to recover more of the WAAS upgrade price than I currently anticipate. 

You don't need WAAS navigational capabilities to be 2020 compliant.  There are lots of ADS-B solutions with internal position sources for far less than $20K.

[Jerry 5TJ]

You can have a lot of fun in an E model.   Both flying and working on it.  

This one looks ok at first review, but actual condition is everything in these old planes.

As the Romans said, and I am sure they were talking about evaluating used airplanes, Caveat Emptor.   

[rbridges]

what everyone else said.  good dependable avionics but older.  Good ramp appearance, great TTAF and OH numbers but take those with a grain of salt.  I think the price is a little high for what it offers.  

[bonal]

30 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

10K is also the altitude above which Mode C is required. I think that that is why they chose that altitude.  

10k for mode C yes I forgot that from my training but I'm always mode C so not on my mind. Something about cognitive skills right.

[gsxrpilot]

Assuming the price is negotiable, I'd pursue a closer look at this one. If it had a Garmin 430W, I'd say it was worth the asking price. Those can be had on the used market for $6000 + installation. The Stec 30 with altitude hold is a really nice autopilot for these airplanes. You can do ADSB without the WAAS GPS, but I wouldn't. I'd want the WAAS GPS and then the ADSB. If you got a Garmin 430W installed, another $2000ish would get you ADSB.

I'd ask for logs and go over them closely. At this point, regular usage would be the deal breaker for me. Otherwise, it looks good from here.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Not only when, but what was involved with overhaul. New limits? Engine controls and cables replaced?  New hoses?  Oil cooler exhaust mags overhauled?  Brakes overhauled?  Flaps overhauled?  Corrosion treatment inspection completed on regular basis? Corrosion in spar is the ultimate killer of deals and Mooney's. The logs will give insight into TLC levels of previous owners. Paint and interior are eye candy. What is in logs and underneath will tell the rest of the story. Get logs for engine and airframe (digital) and that will tell you about moving forward or talking price.

[EagleDriver]

Wow - thanks to all!

Trend data is usually good, and everyone having the same thoughts is reassuring.  The top of my personal list includes the frequency of use post overhaul, corrosions, etc. - but thanks for the point outs on the specifics on SB-208 and the laundry list of "look for's" along with the overhaul.

On the GPS discussion - in my mind it's a definite want and borders on need, but that depends.  If it was an aircraft with zero corrosion issues, solid engine/airframe that has been used frequently and has an IFR usable panel...it might still be the right one.  I'd prefer not to soak up the purchase and installation cost of a WAAS solution, but better in my opinion than soaking up costs from neglect or lack of use that are "hidden."

I was thinking the asking was a little high as well, for the exact reasons mentioned here (assuming all is as it seems with the items mentioned above.)  Vref has it in the mid-to-high $40k range with listed equipment - do you guys find the market pretty well follows those values?

[mooniac15u]

It appears that this aircraft was previously registered as N3220F.  It had an excursion off the end of a runway in 2003.  The NTSB report says, " Examination of the airplane by the FAA inspector revealed substantial damage to the propeller, nose gear, and fuselage "  So, it's probably reasonable to guess that the engine and prop were overhauled/replaced at that time.

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20030717X01122&ntsbno=NYC03LA160&akey=1

 

[rbridges]

I've seen many people commenting on asking prices being high.  Of course you don't know what a plane's selling price is unless you're involved with the deal.

[KSMooniac]

I agree the price seems high for a non-waas bird these days, but if the airframe was properly repaired, has no corrosion and has had steady use over the last few years then I'd look closely. The A/P would cost $15k+ to install today, so that is great to get. I don't like the metal 3 blade prop, but hard to be picky shopping for good 50 year old planes.

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[glafaille]

Might be a nice one!  How many years since the prop and engine overhaul?

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, EagleDriver said:

On the GPS discussion - in my mind it's a definite want and borders on need, but that depends.  If it was an aircraft with zero corrosion issues, solid engine/airframe that has been used frequently and has an IFR usable panel...it might still be the right one.  I'd prefer not to soak up the purchase and installation cost of a WAAS solution, but better in my opinion than soaking up costs from neglect or lack of use that are "hidden."

Lets assume for sake of argument that this one has regular use, well maintained, passes pre-buy easily, because if not, that's a deal breaker for me.

Here's the thing... Eventually you're gonna want that WAAS GPS. Adding it later is probably somewhere between $10K and $20K all in with installation.  You should be able to find a plane at this same price or maybe $2K more with the WAAS GPS.

I agree that its more important to find the right plane. And I'd agree with you if it's missing an engine monitor ($2500) or ADSB ($2500 assuming already has WAAS). But to me an Autopilot, WAAS GPS, standard T panel, are just too expensive to overlook.

[rbridges]

36 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Lets assume for sake of argument that this one has regular use, well maintained, passes pre-buy easily, because if not, that's a deal breaker for me.

Here's the thing... Eventually you're gonna want that WAAS GPS. Adding it later is probably somewhere between $10K and $20K all in with installation.  You should be able to find a plane at this same price or maybe $2K more with the WAAS GPS.

I agree that its more important to find the right plane. And I'd agree with you if it's missing an engine monitor ($2500) or ADSB ($2500 assuming already has WAAS). But to me an Autopilot, WAAS GPS, standard T panel, are just too expensive to overlook.

I agree.  Autopilot and GPS are my two biggest gotta haves.  

[EagleDriver]

I don't have one good reason to counter that.  Especially looking at the math of upgrading what may be missing from my "perfect" equipment list. 

Here's a C, and I'll really show my ignorance.  Engine: 32 since a top overhaul with ~1300 SMOH.  is the TOH a generally good sign or bad? It depends?  Avionics: has the baseline goodies, but a shotgun panel.  I haven't ever actually asked the question - is a panel update (placement; maintaining instruments) closer to an updated transponder cost or more like a WAAS GPS install?  Additionally: from my understanding some of the non-WAAS Garmin units are upgradable and some are not - true statement?

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20C&listing_id=2226877&s-type=aircraft

Edited December 14, 2016 by EagleDriver

[rbridges]

that one looks pretty nice.  My plane had a TOH at 5-600 hours.  The C has a pretty nice stack, but  I'm not familiar with the AP.  I don't have Narco radios, but I think parts are hard to find (?).  It seems to be pretty well maintained from the description: recent paint/interior, and the weep no more reseal is great.  Also has 201 windshield.  Never seen speed brakes on a C, but that's a nice touch.  Rearranging the panel would be pretty minor relative to some mods.  Overall, that's a good looking '63 model IMO.

[glafaille]

I researched the shotgun panel re-configure upgrade in my search for a Mooney and talked to several shops that did that sort of thing.  The general consensus was that it would cost about $5000 (including a new panel), assuming you only wanted to rearrange everything, no new stuff.  About $2000 if you just wanted to rearrange the left side of the panel (with new left panel).

There is a lot of discussion on this board and others concerning the necessity of WAAS GPS.  You may or may not need it depending on how you intend to utilize the aircraft, same with ADS-B out.  Generally a WAAS GPS will get you a bit lower on an IFR approach than a non-WAAS GPS, in addition some sort of WAAS GPS input is needed for ADS-B out compliance.  

If you don't anticipate ever flying in weather lower than about 700 ft and 2 miles then you may not need WAAS.  Furthermore, if you don't anticipate flying above 10,000 ft, or in/under Class B airspace, or in Class C airspace you may not even need ADS-B.

I agree with those that say an autopilot is highly desirable for IFR flight, especially if you have any sort of GPS!  More "head down" is required when programming the GPS, which will make you wish for a good autopilot if you don't have one.

Personally, I avoid flying in weather less than 1000 ft ceiling and 3 miles visibility in single engine aircraft so my IFR/approach legal non WAAS GPS serves me well.  In my case, the jury is still out on ADS-B, but if I do decide to comply I will select an "all in one" ADS-B device that includes WAAS GPS, something like the Stratus ESG transponder or Freeflight Ranger.

If you intend to fly HARD IFR regularly, in weather down to minimums, and in the airspace listed above, then for sure you will need WAAS GPS, ADS-B out and an autopilot.  

So as you can see, your particular usage of the aircraft will dictate exactly what is NEEDED.  What you WANT is an entirely different matter and is more dependent on the size of your wallet and what you think it will take to make you happy.