Mooney down with fatalities

[bonal]

Pure speculation but the location to the runway makes me think he was trying to return after a possible problem. The report I read indicated he was transient and the temps were 95 degrees also had 4 on board perhaps with full fuel was too heavy. Witness said he stalled at around 300 feet.  If true all I can say to this and the Cirrus is the most important thing my instructor used to pound into my head airspeed airspeed airspeed nothing is more important.

God speed

[Piloto]

If the pilot stalled at 300ft it could have been due to trim setting. The trim setting for landing is a higher up setting than for take off. If he forgot to reset the trim this could have caused the unexpected pitch up stall on take off. This is most likely to happen when doing touch and go. A faulty trim setting indicator could mislead to improper trim setting. Always check trim operational range.

José

[201er]

40 minutes ago, bonal said:

If true all I can say to this and the Cirrus is the most important thing my instructor used to pound into my head airspeed airspeed airspeed nothing is more important.

I believe it is exactly this sort of inept thinking that leads to stall accidents! When are pilots going to learn that stalls are an angle and not a speed? 

[mccdeuce]

55 minutes ago, 201er said:

I believe it is exactly this sort of inept thinking that leads to stall accidents! When are pilots going to learn that stalls are an angle and not a speed? 

AOA is absolutely the most important Under taught skill set.  It is slowly changing but not fast enough.  It's good to see more and more companies integrating AOA into avionics. 

[Mooneymite]

16 minutes ago, mccdeuce said:

AOA is absolutely the most important Under taught skill set.  It is slowly changing but not fast enough.  It's good to see more and more companies integrating AOA into avionics. 

Yes, I know that right now, there's a lot of "Everyone should have AOA", but I disagree.  AOA is great for aircraft flying on the margins (high performance/landing on carriers, etc), but teaching pilots to maintain safe airspeed is more important and more universally applicable.

I've flown aircraft with AOA for years and with the exception of a few limited applications, it really isn't that useful.  AOA without an approach indexer is even less useful.

YMMV

 

Edited June 12, 2016 by Mooneymite

[201er]

4 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

but teaching pilots to maintain safe airspeed is more important and more universally applicable.

What is "safe airspeed?" What is it with 4 onboard on a hot day? What about on a go-around climbing turn to crosswind? It's only anyone's guess and the penalty for being wrong could be death!

[Mooneymite]

Just now, 201er said:

What is "safe airspeed?" 

• This is an important thing for any pilot to know.  I suggest you open your POH and don't push the margins.  

[mccdeuce]

1 minute ago, Mooneymite said:

• I suggest you open your POH and don't push the margins. 

The POH lists a single airspeed that applies for a specific set of conditions. It doesn't have to be related to pushing the margins. Density Altitude, gross weight, load factor all affect the "speed" at which an aircraft stalls. 

 

Flyig AOA approaches is useful for precision landings but you are correct not necessarily best for basic landings. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be an instrument in the aircraft to build SA. 

[Mooneymite]

1 minute ago, mccdeuce said:

 Density Altitude, gross weight, load factor all affect the "speed" at which an aircraft stalls. 

Density Altitude affects the TAS at which an aircraft stalls.  IAS, not so much.

 

GW and load factor are two sides of the same coin.

 

Edited June 12, 2016 by Mooneymite

[takair]

Regarding airspeed vs AOA, I Think there are additional factors when you are trying to clear trees and find a spot to land.  I would think that placement of the AOA becomes critical.  It almost has to be on the glareshield, since the poor pilot probably has eyes out.  I keep wondering what is happening with the stall warning horn, which is a direct indication of AOA.  One other thought is the slip-skid indicator.  This used to be a much more prominent instrument.  It has started to get smaller and more hidden.  I have to wonder if mounting a slip-skid ball, top and center, would not help these situations when you are eyes up, trying to get back.  Ideally, AOA and slip-skid on the glareshield might be just the thing to have under circumstances where you are low, looking out the window and maneuvering.  Might be perfect combination to help prevent the base to final accidents that occur.  Depressing to keep reading about these accidents and the turn back accidents.  

[DXB]

1 hour ago, bonal said:

  If true all I can say to this and the Cirrus is the most important thing my instructor used to pound into my head airspeed airspeed airspeed nothing is more important.

 

1 hour ago, 201er said:

I believe it is exactly this sort of inept thinking that leads to stall accidents! When are pilots going to learn that stalls are an angle and not a speed? 

Too harsh.  Without an AOA indicator, maintaining an IAS margin is indeed the single best safety tool, and high emphasis on it by instructors is appropriate during primary training. Of course staying smooth on the controls and limiting bank angles  in order to maintain the safety envelope that a given IAS provides merit similar emphasis.  I also don't think that pilots failing to grasp the AOA concept intellectually has much to do with these accidents. Sudden power loss at low altitude on takeoff is something we never really get to practice in a credibly simulated way. In the initial terror such power loss must induce, the urge to turn back to the wide open runway environment must be hard to suppress. These accidents seem to happen constantly though I suspect every one of us knows about the "impossible turn"  and the danger using steep bank angles and/or skidding turns at low speed to accomplish one. But no matter how much you "chair fly" this scenario, I think visceral fear of the tree tops at the end of the runway sometimes overrides all of it.  Putting it into the tree tops going slow and straight is much more survivable than a spin at low altitude, but the former requires suppressing the visceral response to turn back and then performing an active of extreme discipline and courage under pressure.   

[Hank]

35 minutes ago, mccdeuce said:

The POH lists a single airspeed that applies for a specific set of conditions. It doesn't have to be related to pushing the margins. Density Altitude, gross weight, load factor all affect the "speed" at which an aircraft stalls. 

 

The single stall speed listed in my Owners Manual is for gross weight, as that is the highest stall speed. There is also a table of additional single stall speeds (also at gross) for different bank angles and configurations. So my "single airspeed" is actually twelve airspeeds. My job is to fly the pattern at no less than 1.3 times the appropriate IAS for my configuration, and I simplify that by always flying the same configuration and not banking steep enough to worry about the higher numbers.

surely an airplane with a POH written I recent years will be more comprehensive than my relic from 1970 . . .

[201er]

8 minutes ago, Hank said:

The single stall speed listed in my Owners Manual is for gross weight, as that is the highest stall speed. There is also a table of additional single stall speeds (also at gross) for different bank angles and configurations. So my "single airspeed" is actually twelve airspeeds. My job is to fly the pattern at no less than 1.3 times the appropriate IAS for my configuration, and I simplify that by always flying the same configuration and not banking steep enough to worry about the higher numbers.

surely an airplane with a POH written I recent years will be more comprehensive than my relic from 1970 . . .

How often do you get your airspeed indicator tested/calibrated?

[Mooneymite]

4 minutes ago, 201er said:

How often do you get your airspeed indicator tested/calibrated?

Even more important for AOA systems to be checked and calibrated.  In some of the aircraft that I have flown, the AOA's were used so infrequently that most of them were not "precisely accurate" for approach speeds, consequently the pilots used them less and less rather than writing them up and having them calibrated.

While I agree that calibrating airspeed indicators is a good idea, most of us can tell from our aircraft performance if our airspeed indicator needs calibration.  We also have a stall warning system (which is very close to an AOA system) that will warn us if what we think is an appropriate speed isn't!  

I suspect that in 95% of stall/spin accidents, the stall warning horn was blaring....and people think the pilot would have been paying more attention to an AOA at that critical time?  If the pilot ignored the stall horn, he ignored some very basic training.

Edited June 12, 2016 by Mooneymite

[Hank]

4 minutes ago, 201er said:

How often do you get your airspeed indicator tested/calibrated?

Every 24 months for IFR operations. It's part of the pitot static certification. 

Thats another reason to maintain 1.3 times the value shown, so that if it's off a little, I'm still safe. The odds of it getting off by 15 mph without noticing are pretty slim.

[Mooneymite]

Just now, Hank said:

Every 24 months for IFR operations. It's part of the pitot static certification. 

Thats another reason to maintain 1.3 times the value shown, so that if it's off a little, I'm still safe. The odds of it getting off by 15 mph without noticing are pretty slim.

Hank, I may be missing something, but I don't think the AS is calibratd during the IFR certification.  Maybe one of the technical guys can chime in?

[MB65E]

I don't believe the ASI checked on a 91.411 or 91.413. Only the static is checked on both systems. 

A 10-15 hour aerobatic course would solve 90% of all of these stall spin accidents I believe. The airlines are beginning to teach it internally or having it contracted out.

Emirates is the leading example. 

Once the Mooney wings departs it takes some time for things to reattach. Improper aileron control is rather shocking and no amount of rudder will counter the bad input. I have played with mine in several senerios. Mine drops the right wing first. If opposite aileron is applied it won't reattach or stop rotation. 

Its a shame spins are not taught anymore. 

-Matt

[Piloto]

34 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

Even more important for AOA systems to be checked and calibrated.  In some of the aircraft that I have flown, the AOA's were used so infrequently that most of them were not "precisely accurate" for approach speeds, consequently the pilots used them less and less rather than writing them up and having them calibrated.

While I agree that calibrating airspeed indicators is a good idea, most of us can tell from our aircraft performance if our airspeed indicator needs calibration.  We also have a stall warning system (which is very close to an AOA system) that will warn us if what we think is an appropriate speed isn't!  

I suspect that in 95% of stall/spin accidents, the stall warning horn was blaring....and people think the pilot would have been paying more attention to an AOA at that critical time?  If the pilot ignored the stall horn, he ignored some very basic training.

Some may have mistaken the stall horn for the gear horn. That is were a voice alarm is worth it. That is why I have a gear voice alarm.

José 

[ArtVandelay]

Just now, Hank said: Every 24 months for IFR operations. It's part of the pitot static certification. 

Thats another reason to maintain 1.3 times the value shown, so that if it's off a little, I'm still safe. The odds of it getting off by 15 mph without noticing are pretty slim.

Hank, I may be missing something, but I don't think the AS is calibratd during the IFR certification.  Maybe one of the technical guys can chime in?

Altimeter and transponder only, according to my log entry

[gsxrpilot]

I sure like my AOA and believe its a very valuable instrument. It's also much easier to read/understand then the ASI with associated calculations.

[takair]

Airspeed is not required to be calibrated when you have the 91.411 and 91.413 done.  However, most shops will happily check it for you if you ask them to while doing the altimeter check.  They are already running it up and all it takes is for them to write down the numbers for you. 

[cnoe]

My M20 doesn't have an AOA indicator but I've got about 100 hours in my logbook in a plane that does, and I rarely looked at it. I've considered adding the Bendix-King unit to my plane primarily for the audible warnings in the unimaginable situation where I'm so distracted that I totally blow my airspeed/attitude awareness. Watching LEDs on approach doesn't seem so important for my non-aircraft-carrier landings.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[takair]

6 minutes ago, cnoe said:

My M20 doesn't have an AOA indicator but I've got about 100 hours in my logbook in a plane that does, and I rarely looked at it. I've considered adding the Bendix-King unit to my plane primarily for the audible warnings in the unimaginable situation where I'm so distracted that I totally blow my airspeed/attitude awareness. Watching LEDs on approach doesn't seem so important for my non-aircraft-carrier landings.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I don't have AOA either and routinely live without it.  However, I was wondering if it would help, if installed on the glareshield, in these events when someone is trying to make a small field (analogous the the aircraft carrier), clear obstacles, etc. and has limits ability to look in and out of the cockpit for speed or AOA awareness.  I think one of the traps with the impossible turn or maneuvering down low, is that you tend to be looking outside.  You then tend to judge speed by relative motion, when downwind that can get you slow, with little opportunity to recover.  Similar with slip skid.  

[bonal]

6 hours ago, 201er said:

I believe it is exactly this sort of inept thinking that leads to stall accidents! When are pilots going to learn that stalls are an angle and not a speed? 

Both important but I standby my statement and fwiw what do we all talk about when discussing pattern and landings we talk airspeed not AOA now we have some fancy device to help us do what we should already know how to do. Why do you feel the need to insult 

[Guitarmaster]

First, my deep condolences to the survivors, both in and out of the plane.  I HATE hearing this stuff.

As a high-time airline pilot (along with a few others here), I have tons of training with emergencies.  I understand the following applies mainly to multi engine jets and turboprops, but bear with me.

During take-off, I have set speeds and altitudes that make a decision for me.  For example, V1.  The speed at which I am continuing the takeoff regardless of the situation.  It doesn't matter if the plane is on fire, lost an engine, loss of systems.  It doesn't matter how much runway is in front of you.  You're going.  The decision at that critical moment is taken out of your hands.

Now to the little airplane.

I have tried to adopt this thinking on every departure from every runway.  Obviously it needs to be modified to fit single engine requirements, but the concept is the same.

I set "no-go" altitudes based on the theory that it's better to fly to the crash than arrive at the crash site uncontrolled.  0 - 200ft AGL: I'm going straight ahead +/- 10 degrees.  200 - 500 AGL:  45 -90 degree turn.  500 - 1000 AGL:  up to 180 degrees.  I have found this to be somewhat freeing.  I know how I will handle the airplane at these altitudes so my brain is free to focus on other things.

Every departure I mentally mark my altitudes and where I will go.  Sometimes there simply is no solution.  This is what I would call a "high-risk departure."  At this point I am making a risk/reward decision.  I fly from KMDW all the time (half the time at night) and I am keenly aware of what would happen to me in the event of complete power loss at low altitude.

Next, I have the sight picture over the nose for a given load and best glide speed. (it doesn't change much).  When the engine fails, I pitch for this sight picture (IFR not withstanding) and hold it.  This takes some experimentation up at altitude but eventually it can be nailed within a few knots.  The essence of AOA flying.  I agree, in a panic situation, an electronic AOA will probably be somewhat useless unless it is glare shield mounted, but you can get close looking out the window.   That was part of my primary training.  

My instructor (very old school) covered up the A/S and had me fly with only the sight picture and stall warning to tell me what was going on.  Eventually, I got pretty good at it.  Oddly enough, early on in my flying, a bee crawled into the pitot tube and made itself at home.  I took off and found I had zero airspeed.  As a ~18 hour pilot, I returned to the airport unscathed.  I then got chewed out for not flying the plane to my home field.  Looking back, that really would not have been a problem, but at 18ish ours, it was my first real "emergency" and I was a little scared.

As a G/A community, we set "no-go" limits on ceiling, visibility and wind.  I think we could benefit from setting limits on turn-backs and forced landing field selection altitude as well.

Fly safe out there and I hope to see some of you at KOSH!