Buying a Mooney & need some help

[fws3]

I know that there are a few posts about buying a Mooney on this site, but I am a newbie in the aircraft buying world and I am looking to get some help. I am a pilot in the USAF with the C-17 and I looking to own airplane that can get my wife and I to her homwtown of Greenville, MS & and to my hometown of Buffalo, NY. I like the money because it moves and is a little sportyer than the Pipers I grew up in.

I have never owned an airplane and the only thing(s) that I am intimidated by are the maintenance costs. I am very interested in a 1975 Mooney 20E, 2 blade, a lot of Garmin inside, and I would say 8/8 inside and out. Aside from the price of the plane, what are some of the costs you all have seen with: landing gear, propeller inspections, annuals for a plane this age, and other misc costs?

The only costant costs thus far I can come up with are the payment for the plane, hanagar, oil, and fuel. After spending 50K on a plane and $250 for a hangar...what are some of the costs that I may incur? I would guestimate that I will fly roughly 20 hours per month.

ANY and ALL inputs would be greatly appreciated!!!

Frank

=============================================================

My eyes are gravitating towards this bird....

Type— Mooney
Model— M20E
YEAR— 1965
Air Frame TT— 4600
Engines SMOH— 750
Props SMOH— 116
Engine HP— 200

Classified Ad

1965 Mooney M20E TTAF 4600,  TSMOH 750, TSPOH 116, Good condition, Complete logs, sold w/ fresh annual. Many upgrades, Hangered, well maintained $58,900. Call 941 639 1000

Avionics

Audio Panel— Garmin
GPS— Garmin GNS430
Garmin MX20a
Nav/Com—Garmin430
Nav/Com— King 165
Transponder— Narco
Auto pilot— Brittan 2 axis
ADF— Terra
Stormscope— WX 500
HIS— Century
Full IFR

Exterior
Paint good
Windows good (1/2”)

Interior
Good

Other Equipment
Garmin MX20a moving map (IFR certified)
Garmin voice activated intercom
Shaddin fuel flow (coupled to 430/MX20)
Stormscope (coupled to 420/MX20)
GDL69 coupled satellite interfaced w/ Sirrus weather
Jeppesen maps and approach plates
JPI 4 cylinder GET/temp
Gami tuned injectors
Tuned exaust
Cowl closure
Stand by vacuum
Relocated oil filter
Flap gap seals
Wing root and empennage fairings
Single piece belly pan
201 upgraded windscreen, panel, and 201 landing gear pucks
Electric gear with upgraded landing gear motor (2009)
Dual ILS
Wing leveler

[moodychief]

Frank,

I bought my Mooney 3 1/2 years ago and my family and I have thoroughly enjoyed the flexibility it gives us.  I currently have a 1963 M20C and have made a hobby of researching Mooneys for sale in case I ever find the right airplane to trade up to.  Here are some tips I use when looking at Mooneys. 

First, go to Flightaware.com and enter the tail number.  If routes come up, it shows they have been filing flight plans and flying in the system.  Click on a route then click on the log&graph link and it will show you the actual groundspeed for that route.  This will give you a good idea of the capability of the airplane.  Be sure to look at the altitude.  If it is more than 100 feet off for the altitude, the altitude encoder may need to be replaced.  That will cost you at least 3-400 dollars to replace.

Next, go to report.myairplane.com and type in the tail number (do not use the N prefix).  Check all of the boxes and submit.  It will bring up any accidents or incidents the airplane has had reported.  Keep in mind a lot of Mooneys have had gear up landings due to the pilot forgetting to put the gear down.  A gear up landing doesn't make it a bad airplane but you should see a new prop and engine OH/inspection after the gear up incident.  If they claim no known damage and you see anything on the report.myairplane.com website...run!!!

A couple of ADs on Mooneys are on the two bladed prop and the electric gear.  My airplane has a three bladed prop, manual gear and flaps so I haven't had to worry about those ADs.  Also, look for an airplane that has been hangared as there are some airplanes with corrosion of the frame.  My airplane had a gear up in 1993 as the pilot forgot to put the gear down.  It was repaired properly and I have not had any concerns.  The only indication is my tail tie down ring has a flat spot and a flat antennae on the belly has scrape marks on it. 

If I was looking for a Mooney, I would be looking at the F model as it has a longer fuselage than the C or E.  The manual gear is available to 1969 and has less maintenance worries. 

If they are showing new paint and avionics, look long and hard to make sure they aren't trying to make up for previous damage.  Ask when the tanks were last resealed.  The Mooneys have a wet wing and the sealant will begin to weep after 10-15 years (earlier if operating off grass strips).  Also ask when the landing gear disks were last replaced.  If it is an older Mooney does it have the new style disks?  Does it have any speed mods?   

After owning a Mooney, I would have a hard time getting into any other airplane.  Last spring I flew from Arkansas to Savannah GA burning 7.9 gph on the way there and 9.0 gph on the return trip due to headwinds.  I can beat the airlines on any trip less than 600 miles due to early reporting at airport, TSA screening and layovers at the hub airports.

Good luck on your search.  I hope this little bit of info helps.  Thanks for your service!  I retired from the AF in 2006.

 

 

[carusoam]

Frank,

Did you consider insuring your airplane?

There are plenty of threads on this topic.  Try to determine what solution best fits your experience.  Push the search button at the top of the page....

Check for the annual AD on many two blade props.  Many props use an annual eddy-current inspection test to verify the integrity of the prop hub.  Some planes have been upgraded and do not need this test.  $100 - $200/year  plus the hassle of finding someone with the proper equipment.

You can also research annual costs for your proposed plane with your local A&P or MSC.  They should be able to supply a "no-squawks" cost to perform the inspection.  Of course, there will always be needs.  Very few annuals are actually "no-squawks" especially if you intend to fly 20hrs per month.

Good luck with your search.

Best regards,

-a-

[Comatose]

Engine reserve. Figure $10/hr for the O-360 and maybe $14/hr for the IO-360. That's $200 to $300 per month if one was flying your proposed hours.

Charts and subscriptions can add up with a 430.

[DaV8or]

Quote: moodychief

Next, go to report.myairplane.com and type in the tail number (do not use the N prefix).  Check all of the boxes and submit.  It will bring up any accidents or incidents the airplane has had reported.

[carusoam]

Quote: DaV8or

 

[rbridges]

Quote: DaV8or

[Hank]

Frank--

This is one of the best threads about things to look for in a vintage Mooney:

     http://www.mooneyspace.com/index.cfm?mainaction=posts&forumid=2&threadid=9

Lots of good information there!

I really enjoy my '70 C, which is the same body but a little less engine than an E. If you're ever down towards Huntington, WV, feel free to stop in, we are on the Ohio bank of the river. I only need half an excuse to fly!

[richardheitzman]

I did a spread sheet for how much per hour to operate a M20J and that will be similar to a M20E so looking at that you can expect to "bank" $68 an hour of flight time with a average of 200 hrs per year. That should cover maint, engine reserve, annual inspection, hanger, fuel and insurance. Some people will say that is too high, but I would rather be safe then sorry.

I always say if you don't have $1,000 per month to spend on your aircraft, then rent.

The APA website has a great spreadsheet as well to determine "shared" owner ship costs. Google them and it should come up

The Aircraft Partnership Association       Shared Ownership Cost Calculator

[fws3]

You guys are a class act!!  I really appreciate all of your inputs!! Brought up a lot of ideas I never would have come up with.

Moodychief - thanks for the intel - I checked out a few of the websites and came up with gear up landing - an average speed of 150 kts on a west bound x-c, and a few other things. I am checking further into the brakes and the sealant in the tanks.

Carusoam - I have looked into insurance, with the ATP, CFI, CFII, and hours in complex, I was shocked to know it would be cheaper to insure a plane than my 2 cars! I am checking on the prop inspections and recent squak list(s).

richardheitzman - thank you for the intel on the ASA site. Running some rough numbers it looks like it will be roughly $1000 per month plus operating costs. That sounds about right? How many hours per month do most fly (I know planned and actual can vary)

Hank - thanks for the invite! Let me know if you ever make it to Dayton and want a tour of a C-5 or C-17!

On average, what would most of you say about the cost of an anuual for a late 60's model Mooney? I know anything that flies and is nearly 40 years old, there are unexpexed expenses, but anything ballpark would be good to know. I thought that after the C-5, I would fly newer airplanes! I would imagine, the big-ticket items would have worked themselves out over 40 years.

I checked a few of the posts on here gained a considerable amount of information. I just wanted to thank you for all of your assistance - i really appreciate it!

Many thanks!

[moodychief]

Frank,

My mechanic quotes a base price of $650.00 if nothing is wrong.  However, owning an older airplane (1963 M20C with manual gear/flaps) there are things I personally want to have done at annual time.  I usually budget $1500-2000 per annual to include those things I want done (new tires, heat ducts, etc.)  In the 3 1/2 years of ownership my unexpected items have been a generator, starter, vacuum pump (only had 800 hours) and a prop cable.  This year's annual was the highest yet because I had to have my exhaust sent off to be rebuilt.  Labor, shipping and exhaust was around $2,000 with the rest of my annual costing $1,251 (included new main tires, intertubes and brake linings).  The mechanic said it looked like the original exhaust (47 years old and 2200 hours TT).  I spent almost $2000 on my van getting all of the 100,000 mile junk done.  I got more value for my money on my airplane as my A&P charges a lower hourly rate than the car dealership mechanics.

When considering an airplane, be sure to consider your typical mission.  My C model is ideal for my wife and I.  Occasionally, we will load four people and baggage for a trip but 98 percent of the time it is just me and 1 other person.  Beats the heck out of the hassels of flying the airlines...unless you get a thrill from the new TSA pat-downs!  Our family motto is "Jones Airline...We fly on your mama's schedule!"  My Mooney is a time multiplier since it allows me to cram more travel in a short time.  With my job, I can't afford to be on the road 3 1/2 - 4 hours one-way especially when I can do the same trip in my Mooney in 1 hour.  I file IFR everywhere I go and do it on steam gauges with a yoke mount Garmin 295 for cross reference.  My typical trips are 1 hour in duration but will occasionally fly to Florida or Georgia (3-4 hours).  On long trips my 180 hp will usually give me 140+ knots average ground speed.  You can check my latest trips on Flightaware (tail number N6561U).

Just remember the more bells and whistles the more upkeep and operating expenses. 

[moodychief]

Frank,

My mechanic quotes a base price of $650.00 if nothing is wrong.  However, owning an older airplane (1963 M20C with manual gear/flaps) there are things I personally want to have done at annual time.  I usually budget $1500-2000 per annual to include those things I want done (new tires, heat ducts, etc.)  In the 3 1/2 years of ownership my unexpected items have been a generator, starter, vacuum pump (only had 800 hours) and a prop cable.  This year's annual was the highest yet because I had to have my exhaust sent off to be rebuilt.  Labor, shipping and exhaust was around $2,000 with the rest of my annual costing $1,251 (included new main tires, intertubes and brake linings).  The mechanic said it looked like the original exhaust (47 years old and 2200 hours TT).  I spent almost $2000 on my van getting all of the 100,000 mile junk done.  I got more value for my money on my airplane as my A&P charges a lower hourly rate than the car dealership mechanics.

When considering an airplane, be sure to consider your typical mission.  My C model is ideal for my wife and I.  Occasionally, we will load four people and baggage for a trip but 98 percent of the time it is just me and 1 other person.  Beats the heck out of the hassels of flying the airlines...unless you get a thrill from the new TSA pat-downs!  Our family motto is "Jones Airline...We fly on your mama's schedule!"  My Mooney is a time multiplier since it allows me to cram more travel in a short time.  With my job, I can't afford to be on the road 3 1/2 - 4 hours one-way especially when I can do the same trip in my Mooney in 1 hour.  I file IFR everywhere I go and do it on steam gauges with a yoke mount Garmin 295 for cross reference.  My typical trips are 1 hour in duration but will occasionally fly to Florida or Georgia (3-4 hours).  On long trips my 180 hp will usually give me 140+ knots average ground speed.  You can check my latest trips on Flightaware (tail number N6561U).

Just remember the more bells and whistles the more upkeep and operating expenses. 

[moodychief]

I forgot to answer one of your questions.  I am a non-business owner flyer and I put an average of 85-100 hours per year on my plane.  I will fly my airplane 1-2 times per year to a conference.

Don't forget, if you fly your plane TDY you can get paid mileage not to exceed the cost of an airline ticket IAW the JFTR. 

[DaV8or]

Quote: DaV8or

Funny thing about this site. After reading this here, I went there and entered my tail number. It claims that the FAA has a record of my plane experiencing an engine failure and wing tip damage after a forced landing on a golf course back in '83. News to me, so I checked as best I could on the NTSB and the FAA websites and found no record of this event. I also checked my logbooks again and found no record of a repair. If this event did happen, there is no online record and whoever did the repair illegally did not log it.

[rbridges]

Moral of the story: "Complete" logs don't always tell all.

[Piloto]

At these relative low selling prices for good used Mooneys no wonder Mooney (the factory) is having a hard time selling a new one for $580K (cup holders included). I have seen some of these refurbished old Mooneys and found no justifiable reason for an extra $300K just to get the latest s/n ID plate. 

José