Will Samurai Husky Solo?

[Shadrach]

9 minutes ago, Samurai Husky said:

But isnt centering the yoke considered counter control? Since you are no longer applying left turning force and the ailerons should return to normal position.

In the cirrus i have to hold the stick at X angle in order to continue the turn. If i let go of the stick it will spring back to center and the plane will come out of the roll and get to what ever flight level its trimmed for. 

Your saying in a 172, lets pretend there are no outside forces such as wind, if i turn the yoke into a 20d turn to the left, then center the yoke, it will keep turning 20d to the left until i turn the yoke to the right long enough for it to come out of the roll? That doesnt make a lot of sense, even from a technical standpoint; If i turn 20d to the left, pressure is put on the wires from the yoke to the ailerons. If i center the yoke, those wires should relax and the ailerons should return to normal position allowing the plane to discontinue the roll. 

I will read up on it more, but that doesnt sound right. 

Centering the yoke merely neutralizes aileron input. The plane will maintain the bank angle where the aileron was neutralized unless a counter input is given. It absolutely makes sense from a technical standpoint.  You are misunderstanding the situation.  The airplane is not a thinking being. It has no idea what wings level is.  What would make you think that it would automatically seek a wings level attitude without input from the pilot?

[Dave Colangelo]

25 minutes ago, Samurai Husky said:

But isnt centering the yoke considered counter control? Since you are no longer applying left turning force and the ailerons should return to normal position.

In the cirrus i have to hold the stick at X angle in order to continue the turn. If i let go of the stick it will spring back to center and the plane will come out of the roll and get to what ever flight level its trimmed for. 

Your saying in a 172, lets pretend there are no outside forces such as wind, if i turn the yoke into a 20d turn to the left, then center the yoke, it will keep turning 20d to the left until i turn the yoke to the right long enough for it to come out of the roll? That doesnt make a lot of sense, even from a technical standpoint; If i turn 20d to the left, pressure is put on the wires from the yoke to the ailerons. If i center the yoke, those wires should relax and the ailerons should return to normal position allowing the plane to discontinue the roll. 

I will read up on it more, but that doesnt sound right. 

In theory yes, a plane will stay in a bank until forcibly taken out of a bank by counter control input. Its newtons law in action really. An object in motion [bank] will tend to stay in motion until acted on by an apposing force. I think whats getting confused here is that level controls are not an acting force so they will not alter the roll of an aircraft. I think you are also getting confused about holding control input. If you hold 20D of control input the plane will continue to roll (flat spiral if it can) until the input is removed). If the ailerons are deflected from the neutral chord line of the wing they will produce a rolling moment about the center of the airframe and continue to do so as long as the deflection is input. The lighting is not so great in this video but this is the best angle to watch what happens when constant aileron input is provided, if you watch the edges of the wigs the ailerons are at a constant deflection through the roll. You can also see a single aileron in this video and how the plane will stop rolling as soon as the aileron is leveled but may remain in a bank when referenced to the earth. 

 

On another note, wind is not an outside force in this case unless you are talking about ground reference work where your reference frame is different than the medium you are moving through. If you are strictly talking about the airframe moving through the air wind has no effect on this principal although disturbances in the medium (turbulence) will have an effect.

 

There may also be a discrepancy with the cirrus since the stick is spring loaded (Ive never flown one so this is more speculation) but if the stick is under spring pressure and you let go it will move towards level, pass level input, and continue to the counter control side until the opposing spring acts on the stick. This will in fact briefly cause the ailerons to counter control which will begin to pull the plane out of the bank. However by this logic you will have a decaying oscillation as the stick bounces back and fourth until it finally centers. This is one of the dangers of training in a plane like a Cirrus, when some older manual process are replaced by automatic functions you may never see things in action. A lot has been written about how automation has caused commercial pilots to lose basic skills.    

Edited April 20, 2016 by Dave Colangelo

[Shadrach]

15 minutes ago, Dave Colangelo said:

In theory yes, a plane will stay in a bank until forcibly taken out of a bank by counter control input. Its newtons law in action really. An object in motion [bank] will tend to stay in motion until acted on by an apposing force. I think whats getting confused here is that level controls are not an acting force so they will not alter the roll of an aircraft. I think you are also getting confused about holding control input. If you hold 20D of control input the plane will continue to roll (flat spiral if it can) until the input is removed). If the ailerons are deflected from the neutral chord line of the wing they will produce a rolling moment about the center of the airframe and continue to do so as long as the deflection is input.

 

On another note, wind is not an outside force in this case unless you are talking about ground reference work where your reference frame is different than the medium you are moving through. If you are strictly talking about the airframe moving through the air wind has no effect on this principal although disturbances in the medium (turbulence) will have an effect.

 

There may also be a discrepancy with the cirrus since the stick is spring loaded (Ive never flown one so this is more speculation) but if the stick is under spring pressure and you let go it will move towards level, pass level input, and continue to the counter control side until the opposing spring acts on the stick. This will in fact briefly cause the ailerons to counter control which will begin to pull the plane out of the bank. However by this logic you will have a decaying oscillation as the stick bounces back and fourth until it finally centers. This is one of the dangers of training in a plane like a Cirrus, when some older manual process are replaced by automatic functions you may never see things in action. A lot has been written about how automation has caused commercial pilots to lose basic skills.    

A spring loaded stick should not cause a significant counter roll input.  A wing leveler on the other hand will.  If I don'd defeat the wing leveler in my F model it feels like the aviation equivalent of power steering, albeit heavier.  If I let go of the yoke from any bank angle and the plane (read wing leveler) will gently return the aircraft to wings level, just like a car with power steering will automatically center the wheels.

[Dave Colangelo]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

A spring loaded stick should not cause a significant counter roll input.  A wing leveler on the other hand will.  If I don'd defeat the wing leveler in my F model it feels like the aviation equivalent of power steering, albeit heavier.  If I let go of the yoke from any bank angle and the plane (read wing leveler) will gently return the aircraft to wings level, just like a car with power steering will automatically center the wheels.

This is more or less what I assumed i was bringing it up more for the sake of discussion. I was going to mention the wing lever but I figured I would let an owner comment on that!

[Samurai Husky]

Ok, then the Cirrus has a wing leveler. Because if i enter into a turn, i need to keep constant preasure on the stick to maintain that turn. If i let go the stick will return to center and the plane will level. 

So the simulator is acting as intended. Good to know; I thought all airplanes were like the cirrus in that aspect, where if the yoke is centered, the plane should return to level flight (assuming properly trimmed);

---

So just got back from my morning lesson and once again AMAZING! perfect weather! And for those that were saying i should be on the coms more, guess what? My instructors jack wasn't working so it was all me today. Not just that, but he made me take a short cut through Moffet airspace, SJC airspace and then finally to our towered airport of RHV. Needless to say, by the time i got there, I needed some water as each tower kept having us do course corrections. I think the guy at Moffet fell asleep for a while too, had to call him and ask why we never received updated instructions after we got passed the way point he assigned. 

We were on RHV's L runway half the time and R the other half; Things got pretty crowded, at one point were were 8th in line but still managed to get 8 landings in. 

First 2 were shaky and then i just hit my stride. I was able to nail the center line and outside of some tweaking of when to pull up for level flight, i was able to put it down every time. I had 1 perfect landing all the way through roll out, enough to even get a congratulations from the right seat. Finally starting to learn to use the rudders to center the plane so that the direction of motion is parallel to the runway.

Now the new problem that has started up for me (since we are now getting to the point of actually landing) is roll out; For what ever reason i cant stop the plane! It might just be because im too close to the dash, but i couldn't get my feet high enough to tap the breaks, or when i did, it was very uneven and had a few close calls. The good news is that with each lesson, things are getting better and while new problems pop up, its mainly because we hadn't gotten that far before. I need to figure out this roll out issue through, its going to give both of us a heart attack

Oh, and i was able to get it down at KPAO! Landed right on the numbers at the center line, a perfect touchdown..... Problem is that i was sooo excited to get the mains down and be on the center line that i released pressure on the stick and the nose dropped and we did a few little bounces on the front gear..... I told my CFI not to say it, because i already knew i messed up; almost a perfect landing though. Wind was a near non factor; 8knts from 340 (landing on 31) so i had to be slightly to the right and then use left rudder to kick the plane streight. 

Its all starting to come together! Very Excited!

 

[carl]

Did I say May 12th solo, You are moving forward at a quick rate , so maybe it will be sooner .

                                                    "Taxi over to the restaurant,I'm getting a coffee, you take it around for a few landings. "   "Oh yeah , stay in the pattern"

                    that was my solo , I didn't expect it.

 

carl

[Yetti]

it's good when it clicks.   Dynamic Breaking.   If you pull all the way back on the yoke, the Elevator will come up  and provide drag.  If you have too much speed the plane will take off again.   If you have a bit of speed, you will do a wheelie... which are fun to ride down the runway.

[Samurai Husky]

Yea, Its a lot easier flying when there is calm winds; I am able to understand what everything should feel/look like, vs trying to do cross wind correction and not knowing what to look for. 

I think if we get into cross wind again, i might regress a little.... but at least now I know how things 'should' look;

@Yetti

Yep; still not doing that right; I think i am so happy that I flared correctly that i loosen up on the stick; Since its spring loaded, it dives down and since I am trimmed for landing, to goes way past center, so its almost like pushing on the stick. I need to learn to just keep the back pressure on through roll out. That way i get the drag and smoother front gear touch down. 

Breaking still scares me; Its all foot placement. It was drilled into my head to keep my heels on the ground during take off and landing. Take off because you dont want to accidentally break when you apply rudder and end up in the weeds, landing so that your breaks arent locked on touch down. The problem i have is transitioning from heels down to heels up to hit the breaks. I need to keep rudder pressure on to stay on the runway, but still be able to slide my foot up to hit the toe break.

Its normally there that i either lose pressure on the rudder or hit the break early and end up veering towards the grass  I think i am just sitting too close to the dash and so to lift my feet its all quads. It almost feels like doing a leg machine at the gym. Once we got back to parking, i sat in the plane for a while just playing with the seat and hitting the breaks. It felt much better being 2 clicks farther back. So we'll see. It could be something as simple as that. 

Im kinda sad though because its going to rain on Friday so it looks like that lesson will be canceled and my next one isnt until the end of next week.

[bradp]

In a C152 my instructor had me on occasion hold the brakes and use throttle and elevator while static to lift the nose hold it and gently put it down.  It was in order to teach the concepts of soft field maneuvers and dynamic braking.  The next step was to taxi with all the weight off the nose without stopping or abrupt maneuvers.  Then it was on to soft field takeoff and landings. 

[carusoam]

Sam,

have you read the POH page by page yet?

All of the details of how the plane's systems work is usually detailed to the pilot's level.  It will have a few pages of thing out of 200 that will light the idea bulb over your head.

It would be great to be able to memorize everything.  At least take some notes.

Most GA planes are designed to have stability characteristics.  The dihedral in the wings will keep it horizontal or at least tend to.

Controls are fun. Use them fully (safe altitude and below maneuvering speed). Get a feeling for how these things work.  Put the plane into a bank. Take it out. Put it back... Slowly, quicker, then really quickly...  With coordination you can see and feel, not read on the panel...  Do this with the instructor. Not while solo or at low altitude.  Do not exceed 60° of bank.  (Unless you have an aerobatic cirrus)

You have demonstrated the yoke is not a steering wheel.  It doesn't have the same self centering feel of a power assisted rack and pinion...

Are we in week three already?

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[Raptor05121]

On 4/16/2016 at 5:26 PM, Samurai Husky said:

I didnt even see this thread until now.....

I really dont know what you want me to do to prove im not a troll.... You can ask me anything about my training and i will answer it honestly.

i dont know if this helps, i dont think anyone would admit to some of those scores.... But on practice test 1 i messed up and hit end with 15 questions left. So it was kind of nice to pass without answering nearly 25% of the test. 

Also it appears i dont know how to read because I have 14.9hrs of total flight time. I added up the wrong columns in my flight book.

 

Oh god I thought I have escaped that screen. Get it away GET IT AWAY NOW!

[MyNameIsNobody]

Mooneyspace sinks to a new low.  Deletes a post.  Sad.  Pathetic.  New Normal...

[carl]

DAMN , i MISSED IT. !!

WHERE IS LITTLE TOMMY!!

[bradp]

???

[Samurai Husky]

I wasnt going to say anything before I solo'ed, but i thought i might as well make a post on progress. 

So I am now able to land on the center line almost every time on larger runways with little cross wind. We were able to work out the roll out problem by going over to livermore and spending some time on the big long runway. 

The main issue i had was coming in to fast. The next problem was breaking to early. I was trying to break as soon as the front touched down, which was at about 80-85knts. At that speed, even taking my foot off the rudder for a second to move it up to break caused a wild turn. So i learned to let the plane naturally slow down a little before trying to break; I also have been keeping back pressure on the stick so that i have extra drag. 

I was also to heavy footed on the break; i learned to use the slightest pressure at first then keep applying additional pressure as the plane slowed down.

The last landing of the day was near perfect (i was actually slow coming in, touched down at 70knts), but flare and roll out were on the center line and even made it to an earlier taxiway. 

I still wasnt able to land at KPAO; wind had kicked up to 15g25 and it was just too much, so the cfi helped me a little on final with keeping it lined up; but i was in charge of speed, flare and roll out, which i was able to do ok; For some reason i just cant crab right when there are no parallel markers and your only indication is the runway.

Past few lessons were canceled because of the plane going into maintenance and weather. So i probably wont be solo by the May 12th. 

Realistically, i might say end of may, weather and plane permitting. Im trying to get in 3 lessons a week, but normally 1 or 2 of those have been getting canceled for one reason or another. The last lesson really built up a lot of comfidense; figuring out my roll out problem took a lot of pressure off as normally that was the scariest part (i know its supposed to be the easiest, but almost end up going off the runway a few times and it really shakes your nerves); 

[Guest]

Improper use of the brakes, may result in other things breaking.

Clarence

[Bob_Belville]

37 minutes ago, Samurai Husky said:

I wasnt going to say anything before I solo'ed, but i thought i might as well make a post on progress. 

So I am now able to land on the center line almost every time on larger runways with little cross wind. We were able to work out the roll out problem by going over to livermore and spending some time on the big long runway. 

The main issue i had was coming in to fast. The next problem was breaking to early. I was trying to break as soon as the front touched down, which was at about 80-85knts. At that speed, even taking my foot off the rudder for a second to move it up to break caused a wild turn. So i learned to let the plane naturally slow down a little before trying to break; I also have been keeping back pressure on the stick so that i have extra drag. 

I was also to heavy footed on the break; i learned to use the slightest pressure at first then keep applying additional pressure as the plane slowed down.

The last landing of the day was near perfect (i was actually slow coming in, touched down at 70knts), but flare and roll out were on the center line and even made it to an earlier taxiway. 

I still wasnt able to land at KPAO; wind had kicked up to 15g25 and it was just too much, so the cfi helped me a little on final with keeping it lined up; but i was in charge of speed, flare and roll out, which i was able to do ok; For some reason i just cant crab right when there are no parallel markers and your only indication is the runway.

Past few lessons were canceled because of the plane going into maintenance and weather. So i probably wont be solo by the May 12th. 

Realistically, i might say end of may, weather and plane permitting. Im trying to get in 3 lessons a week, but normally 1 or 2 of those have been getting canceled for one reason or another. The last lesson really built up a lot of comfidense; figuring out my roll out problem took a lot of pressure off as normally that was the scariest part (i know its supposed to be the easiest, but almost end up going off the runway a few times and it really shakes your nerves); 

It's "brake" and as you get further along you'll figure out that brakes are to be used as little as possible for multiple reasons. 

[carusoam]

Have you gone through the stall speed vs. landing speed calculations yet?  The discussion will probably include speeds in the traffic pattern on the three legs, flap positions, power settings, resulting airspeed ratio compared to stall speed. 1.3, 1.2, 1.1 X Vs or something like that...

landing at 85kias sounds like you are still flying at ground level.  Braking requires having the weight of the plane on the wheels.

If you are going quickly, the weight isn't where it needs to be.  The brakes lock easily, the tire's get flat spotted, your money gets spent at a high rate.

thoughts of a PP. Not a CFI...

How is the retention rate of your lessons when flying 2-3X per week?

Best regards,

-a-

[MyNameIsNobody]

5 hours ago, Samurai Husky said:

I wasnt going to say anything before I solo'ed, but i thought i might as well make a post on progress. 

So I am now able to land on the center line almost every time on larger runways with little cross wind. We were able to work out the roll out problem by going over to livermore and spending some time on the big long runway. 

The main issue i had was coming in to fast. The next problem was breaking to early. I was trying to break as soon as the front touched down, which was at about 80-85knts. At that speed, even taking my foot off the rudder for a second to move it up to break caused a wild turn. So i learned to let the plane naturally slow down a little before trying to break; I also have been keeping back pressure on the stick so that i have extra drag. 

I was also to heavy footed on the break; i learned to use the slightest pressure at first then keep applying additional pressure as the plane slowed down.

The last landing of the day was near perfect (i was actually slow coming in, touched down at 70knts), but flare and roll out were on the center line and even made it to an earlier taxiway. 

I still wasnt able to land at KPAO; wind had kicked up to 15g25 and it was just too much, so the cfi helped me a little on final with keeping it lined up; but i was in charge of speed, flare and roll out, which i was able to do ok; For some reason i just cant crab right when there are no parallel markers and your only indication is the runway.

Past few lessons were canceled because of the plane going into maintenance and weather. So i probably wont be solo by the May 12th. 

Realistically, i might say end of may, weather and plane permitting. Im trying to get in 3 lessons a week, but normally 1 or 2 of those have been getting canceled for one reason or another. The last lesson really built up a lot of comfidense; figuring out my roll out problem took a lot of pressure off as normally that was the scariest part (i know its supposed to be the easiest, but almost end up going off the runway a few times and it really shakes your nerves); 

Don't feel bad.  There are Mooney owners that can't resist hitting the brakes...NOT breaks early.  Again, I see a lot of maturity and progress in your description of your flying.  I can feel your starting to "get it" and gain confidence.  Good for you.

[MyNameIsNobody]

WHAT IS THE STALL SPEED OF AN SR20 OR 22?  ISN'T IT ABOUT 65MPH?  WHY WOULD YOU BE TOUCHING NOSE GEAR AT 80-85KNOTS?

[Bob_Belville]

Just now, MyNameIsNobody said:

WHAT IS THE STALL SPEED OF AN SR20 OR 22?  ISN'T IT ABOUT 65MPH?  WHY WOULD YOU BE TOUCHING NOSE GEAR AT 80-85KNOTS?

SR@: Vs 65 KIAS, Vso 56 KIAS. So 1.2 Vso would be about 67 KIAS and touch down should be less than that. 

[MB65E]

All true but anything slower than about 75kts there is not enough elevator authority to keep the nose wheel from pounding the runway. Had a really sweet approach set up. My buddy said maintain 80 on final. I kinda laughed. At about  2-3 ft, the elevator hit the frickin stop. After thoroughly embarrassing myself I realized they limit the pitch stop. 

That's why there are so many with nose wheel pant damage. 

I'd much rather drag the tail in my mooney than prang a nose wheel.

-Matt

[gsengle]

Repeat after me: Break doesn't mean brake

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Samurai Husky]

So for the SR20 the pattern is like this:

Downwind @ 50% power (i have been doing % instead of MFP, its easier to see on the screen)

Reach the numbers at the beginning of the runway and cut power to 25%

Bleed off speed to <119knts and hit one notch of flaps (50%); (though at 50% power on the downwind your hardly going faster than 110knts anyway, unless you have some good wind pushing you along);

Enter base and bleed off more speed to <100knts  trim for 100knts and enter in the last notch of flaps; Turn final at 85knts, which i normally hit on the turn.

Short final be at 75knts, touch down at 75knts; I was told below 75 is considered slow; We had a good 15knt wind coming straight down the runway that day so its why i was a few knts slow, needed maybe 3% more power on final and it would have been enough.

I had been fast just because i didnt understand the characteristics for pitching to bleed speed and cutting power to drop; So i would end up pitching lower to drop and end up picking up speed; Then i would level out to take the speed away; So i end up doing this stair step type decent (or at some point ballooning) instead of a nice glide slope. The 2nd to last landing of the day i was the most proud of (my CFI basically stopped talking after the 3rd landing, except any critiques after the fact) during that landing i was able to properly identify that i was high and fast and was able to just cut all power to the engine and glide it in; (the CFI thought it was destined for a go around); On that one i landed softly flat, so i didn't get full marks, i was at about 2.5% in my flare instead of 5% (so i was told) but it felt really smooth

The stall characteristic on this thing is insane. When we did power off stalls it seemed to glide forever before we finally stalled out. We had a good 5 seconds or more of warning before it finally stalled and that was intentionally trying to make it happen;  i think only once or twice did we kick off the stall warning in flare; 

As far as retention goes; I think its going exceptionally well; actually for the last lesson i was nervous because it was a full week between flying and i thought i would have regressed, turns out after about 2 landings i was in the groove in all aspects, including comm; 

I think i am at the point in training where you are really starting to use all of the skills at once, so doing 3 days a week is perfect; 2 days take extra time on the 2nd lesson to get some jitters out; 1 day and im a nervous wreck because i had a whole week to think about all the stuff i did wrong and worry about if i can correct it. 

As far as braking goes, on a 2400ft runway, you need to brake; and the brakes on a the SR20 are hard as rock; so even slight pressure and you could be flying off in any one direction. I wish it was more like a car brake where there is some give to it so that you can ease into them over a longer travel. By the end of the runway im basically standing up in my seat with full pressure on the brakes. 

The problem isnt braking too early, like i am not braking in the air; my heels are on the ground and my toes are on the rudder. So its not something that i would worry about where i would touch down with locked brakes (My CFI beat that into my head, heels down on take off and landing); Its more like im going to fast when I apply the brakes and so (as stated above) even light uneven pressure on them causes the plane to go one way or another. I figure at about 65knts its ok to start braking, that 10knt (or 20knt difference early on) makes a big difference in both getting the plane to drop and in the touchy nature of braking at that speed.

The last lesson i learned, once i am on the ground for about 3 seconds, i can safely take pressure off of the right rudder and slowly start applying brakes; about 3 seconds of light braking allows me to see where the plane wants to veer to and i can start braking harder and harder while adjusting for that. 

As long as the plane is good to go next week, Im loaded up with 4 lessons and no rain or high winds in the forecast  after that though things start getting backed up. I really need to solo before may 20th, after that both my CFI and the planes start to get over booked.

sorry this post was probably not the most well thought out or sequential I kinda commented as i remembered the information.

 

Edited May 1, 2016 by Samurai Husky

[Yetti]

Sounds like you are learning to fly the plane vs. operate it.   Doing percentage power is a little weird since most planes don't have that unless you are doing it in your head.    It also seems to make things more complex than needed.    In Training we were doing multiple speeds for places in the pattern, then the chief instructor said do 75 knots for downwind, base and final.   OK was not a big deal.