Ovation 2 with extensive damage history. Avoid?

[roglaws]

Hello all,

I have been looking to buy a Mooney for a few months now, but having a hard time pulling the trigger.  Anyhow, I came across this 2000 Mooney Ovation 2 advertised as "  1100 TTAF & 5 SMOH. Lowest priced M20R on the market. 2 430 WAAS GPS. XM WX. KFC225 Auto Pilot. HSI 

 However, it goes on  "This aircraft does have some damage history. 2 gear up landings & 3 prop strikes. June 13 2003 log entry for repair for what appears to be a gear up landing Feb 24 2004 log entry for repair for what appears to be a gear up landing, Sept 16 2014 log entry for repair for prop strike, Dec 23 2014 log entry for repair for prop strike Aug 20 2015 log entry for repair for prop strike."

 But, maybe good  " The engine is a Penn Yan overhaul. Overhauled July 2015. The engine was installed on the aircraft Aug 20 2015 at 1107.58 tac hours. 2 hours since overhaul." 

Got to admit I am tempted, but should I be staying away from this bird?  Any thoughts would be appreciated.  

[FlyDave]

If you do buy this plane I wouldn't ask the previous owner for training....

[Seth]

Also understand the resale will suffer when you go to sell, so ensure you buy it at the right place so you are not destroyed when you go to sell it.  The more years from damage as long as repaired correctly, the better it is.

Was the ovation that had the outer section of the wing replaced at Freeway (W00) MSC a few years ago?

 

-Seth

[LANCECASPER]

16 minutes ago, roglaws said:

 "This aircraft does have some damage history. 2 gear up landings & 3 prop strikes. June 13 2003 log entry for repair for what appears to be a gear up landing Feb 24 2004 log entry for repair for what appears to be a gear up landing, Sept 16 2014 log entry for repair for prop strike, Dec 23 2014 log entry for repair for prop strike Aug 20 2015 log entry for repair for prop strike."

Tires are just like new, only used for taxiing, never landing.

[carusoam]

Did it at least get the 310hp and TopProp after one of those?

What is the lowest priced O going for this year?

Best regards,

-a-

[Godfather]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

What is the lowest priced O going for this year?

+1

[DAVIDWH]

I understand when Neil Degrasse Tyson says when you are rolling around on the ground, flailing and foaming, you actually have epilepsy and are not "Possessed by the devil".

However, this plane with all those gear ups and prop strikes may actually be possessed, and to update those knob twirling 430's will cost you about 20K.

That being said, the big O is fast, long range and so longitudinally stable, you can almost land her with both feet flat on the floor.

As previously stated above, resale may be a bit trying.

 

 

 

 

 

[bradp]

You need to look at the logbook entries to see how extensive the repair was.  You would need the most thorough pre purchase inspection at one of maybe three MSCs around the country (top gun, dmax, Henry Weber or air mods Or Clarance) to be able to evaluate anything more than a belly skin for proper repair practices  

Pen Yan OH is great.  Caution infant mortality.   

Know that you won't turn around and sell it for more than you bought it and that it wouldn't be a quick sell with many hrs on that Penn Yan that may be attractive now.  However hours on the repair will offset the price hickey a little bit.  

[LANCECASPER]

The thing that bothers me the most is that the airplane was too much to handle for the person flying it without additional training and it appears that he never got it. People will spend a quarter to a half a million dollars on an airplane and then won't spend another 1-2% of that to get some transition training.

[PMcClure]

I think I know the story on this plane. I looked at it as well if is the plane I am thinking of. The owner had Alzheimer's and eventually lost his medical. Log books were incomplete and a tear down was not done after last prop strike. I passed due to that. But now it has a new engine. I would take a second look at it if it were me. Post a picture or tail number I can confirm it is the same bird. Ps I seem to recall the pilot was a navy aviator before his medical issue. Sad. 

Edited April 9, 2016 by PMcClure

[dlthig]

I think that Harry Kraemer in Gaithersburg is advertising that airplane. I haven't heard anything bad about him, but don't know him. Perhaps Seth can provide some input?

[LANCECASPER]

40 minutes ago, PMcClure said:

I think I know the story on this plane. I looked at it as well if is the plane I am thinking of. The owner had Alzheimer's and eventually lost his medical. Log books were incomplete and a tear down was not done after last prop strike. I passed due to that. But now it has a new engine. I would take a second look at it if it were me. Post a picture or tail number I can confirm it is the same bird. Ps I seem to recall the pilot was a navy aviator before his medical issue. Sad. 

I think you're remembering N444HK. I looked at that one also. (The H in N444HK was H. L. Wilson the one who had Alzheimers. The K was Beau King the one selling it.)

https://www.controller.com/images/Controller/externalfiles/15468.pdf

[roglaws]

The tail number is n22184.  Yes Harry Kraemer is selling it.   Since I'm not that experienced of a pilot, know I'm going to require extensive transition training no matter which plane I ultimately buy.  looking forward to that though.  Also know I am going to be forced to pay too much in insurance.

However, with respect to this plane, I'm in the most plane for the money quandry. Most every Ovation is outside my budget.  The damage history on this Ovation, and its 165k asking price, put it slightly outside my top end.  I can buy a  252 (turbo pluses and minuses I know)  for substantially less.    I suppose I'm making this process  more complicated that it needs to be.           

[takair]

Depends what happened in the gear up.  If the belly, doors, and sheetmetal were replaced without additional patches or deformation, one might even argue no damage history.  If things were bent and hammered back to shape and patches installed instead of new metal, than it has damage history.  I wouldn't let either scare you off, but as others have said, a pre-purchase is important.  The Mooney structure is fairly robust and it is rare for a gear up to do any real structural damage.  I WOULD be really nervous if it still had the same engine and crank with that many prop strikes...even with run-out inspection.  

[ArtVandelay]

No matter what plane you get, you need to have a minimum of $10k in cash reserves for maintenance issues.  Owners tend to postpone maintenance when they aren't flying. Don't spend all, save some, or save even more for upgrades to bring the plane up to your standards.

[LANCECASPER]

If you are going to buy it and fly it it could be a great deal. Get a Don Maxwell pre-buy and if it checks out, you are into it for probably close to $50,000 less than retail when you consider the overhauled engine and the air conditioning. It also has the best autopilot in any non-glass Mooney, the Bendix King KFC225.

[Seth]

Weber or Freeway Aviation are also MSC's local that I'd trust for a good prebuy.

I'll talk to Harry and find out the scoop on this airplane.  I met Harry in 2007.  He's always been upfront and honest with me.  He tries to sell the airplanes he has as any broker would.

I looked at a Piper Lance he was brokering when I bought my first Mooney in 2008 and also at a Bravo at one point he had listed.  

I have never purchased through him buy we know each other.  He's also now Chief Instruxtor at the flight school at GAI since the last one moved on for an airline gig.

I'll post when I have more info.

 

-Seth

[Raptor05121]

Mirroring what these guys said, keep in mind a good number of Mooneys (some say as much as half?) have gear-up damage history. It's kind of sad it was so common on a newer airframe, but don't think its the only Mooney out there like it. Go scroll online, its almost as if "gear up DH" should be under the list of commonly-included when it comes to Mooneys.

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

I believe that well-repaired may be superior to old, original "NDH" condition.  

I also recommend Tom at Freeway for a thorough pre-buy. 

 

[Godfather]

My advice is to put a $1k deposit down if you are serious...make it refundable if past damage was not repaired correctly.  At $165k with a fresh engine someone (might even be from this thread) will probably lock up the deal.

[29-0363]

There's a previous thread on this airplane.  

 

[roglaws]

9 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

I believe that well-repaired may be superior to old, original "NDH" condition.  

 

    Therein lies the rub.  I have no idea what is involved in the repair of these types of landings.  But after reading the comments, went and looked closely at the pictures. It looks like old metal was cut out and small pieces off new metal were screwed on to replace it.  Not only on the lower wing surfaces, which I guess I could understand, but on the upper wing surfaces as well.  Also looks like a piece was screwed into the fuselage.  Can't imagine this would not effect performance, but it certainly looks like ....  

Not sure I would would to meet any of you guys pulling up in that bird, even if it remains a great piece of machinery.         

[takair]

26 minutes ago, roglaws said:

    Therein lies the rub.  I have no idea what is involved in the repair of these types of landings.  But after reading the comments, went and looked closely at the pictures. It looks like old metal was cut out and small pieces off new metal were screwed on to replace it.  Not only on the lower wing surfaces, which I guess I could understand, but on the upper wing surfaces as well.  Also looks like a piece was screwed into the fuselage.  Can't imagine this would not effect performance, but it certainly looks like ....  

Not sure I would would to meet any of you guys pulling up in that bird, even if it remains a great piece of machinery.         

Not sure if you are previous Mooney owner, so perhaps I missed some particular photo...I think you are seeing the standard inspection and fuel panels.  Although we like to think of our Mooney's as being completely clean aerodynamically, they still have quite a few rivets, screws and panels.  The old aircraft were even worse for screws, but Mooney still kept many, if not all of the wing inspection panels.  The newer belly is better than the vintage aircraft.

[Godfather]

Please post the pictures (or pm me if you need me to assist).  I agree with takair that you might be looking at the normal inspection panels.

[roglaws]

3 hours ago, Godfather said:

Please post the pictures (or pm me if you need me to assist).  I agree with takair that you might be looking at the normal inspection panels.

Really.  Wow.  Never looked at an O up close and personal, but don't recall ever seeing panels like that on wings before.  Here are the pics.  Thanks for the insight. 4.pdf   

1.pdf

2.pdf

3.pdf