Is Mooney suitable for learning how to fly?

[Conrad]

As I understand, the source of a firm no T@G policy is old Bonanzas with this panel: http://www.westin553.net/genavFoto01/ibe35-01.jpg. Look closely and you will see that the identical switches on the left and right of the center console are the gear switch and flap switch. Many mistakes were made.

Even with the modern wheel shaped switch this forum alone has had two electric gear members who tried to operate the flap switch immediately after touching the wheels and hit the gear instead. Not necessarily T&G related, but if you were thinking more about the end of the runway than anything else you can see how that might be more likely to happen.

I suspect that with a long enough runway most pilots here feel T&G's can be accomplished safely. This pilot was doing them on a 3k ft runway and  the famed Mooney float resulted in a late touchdown and unfortunate attempt to get back in the air (and then back on the ground). Overran. Oops.

I've done maybe 30 T&G's in in my E during the course my training so far, mostly on a 5.5k ft runway. I left the flaps fully down once after my instructor gave me a critique of my landing technique while we were rolling. It sure is surprising how hard you have to pull back to climb with full power and full flaps.

My diciest moment to date though came after a mediocrely executed landing in I had added full nose up trim. The trim indicator for the E is way down by the floor. Mine has some slop in it that makes it rather untrustworthy, but even if it didn't - with the seat in one of the forwardmost positions it's taking a lot of attention off the runway if you need to move your head to find it down there and figure out what it's telling you. Thus my technique has been to know the number of turns of the trim wheel required to retrim from landing to takeoff. Without realizing I had more nose up trim than usual I executed the turns and ended up very unexpectedly with an airplane that was no longer properly attached to the runway and subsequently crabbed into a slight crosswind at 6AGL. My instructor helped me fly the plane in ground effect until we had enough airspeed to rotate normally, but had there not been an instructor in the right seat that understood what was happening and how to handle it the outcome of the situation would have been measured in nice big round chances.

Note for the record though that I'm not opposed to touch and goes in the airplane I fly, nor is my insurance company.

[chrisk]

5 minutes ago, kpaul said:

I just find it interesting....doing the t&g a "complex" aircraft is no more complex then a C-150.  The gear is down, prop is full forward, mixture is rich, assuming partial flap landing-flaps are set.  That leaves resetting trim just like a trainer.

I have done touch and go's in King Air 200s, PC-12s, C-130s, T-6s and yes my M20F.   It takes slightly more attention if you have landed in a flap setting that is different than what is used for take off since resetting them would require your take eyes off the runway to verify their position.  "Flaps, Trim, Throttle" and as long as you know your take off ground roll and have that much runway remaining you're good.

Is there really less wear and tear on the brakes, tires and engine to come to a stop and taxi back vs pushing the power up while still rolling along at 40-50 mph.

I understand that most aircraft owners do not spend hours in the pattern, but if you are trying to maximize your fuel and hobbs time you loose at least one traffic pattern for each stop/taxi back vs. the t&g for a given amount engine time.

 

I really have to agree with what is being said here.  If your setup for a landing is the same as take off its no big deal.  Where some get in trouble is with the trim and flaps, a bad landing, and a rush to get off again.  If you stop when you have a bad landing, or take the time to reconfigure the plane before fire walling the plane, it should be a non-event.

All that said, on my commercial check ride touch and go was prohibited.  Apparently it is not just Mooney pilots that have trouble with loss of control on a touch and go.     So everything was a stop and go.

 

[C-GHIJ]

4 minutes ago, N601RX said:

Search for touch and go's. There are some 1st hand accounts of members retracting the gear instead of the flaps.  

Why not practice stop and go's?

Mistakes happen, that's what the instructor is there for.  No reason not to teach them.  The first time that they need to do them for real in a complex airplane would result in the same thing then by that logic.

[N601RX]

If you search the previous gear up thread you will see that several of them had instructors on board actively giving instruction when it happened.  

12 minutes ago, C-GHIJ said:

Mistakes happen, that's what the instructor is there for.  No reason not to teach them.  The first time that they need to do them for real in a complex airplane would result in the same thing then by that logic.

 

[C-GHIJ]

Just another reason I love my Johnson Bar

[chrisk]

51 minutes ago, C-GHIJ said:

Just another reason I love my Johnson Bar

Just make sure it is latched. 

[steingar]

3 hours ago, kpaul said:

I have heard this before on this forum, but why?    Where is the coming from?

 

Complex aircraft, lots to do to convert from taxing to flying.  Lots to do on the go.  Lots of things that if bolluxed can break the airplane.  Or it's occupants.  I won't do T&G's on mine.  If I really want to do multiple sorties I'll taxi back and take my time setting up the aircraft.  Making sure its all right.  Lotsa guys will say I'm full of it, that a complex aircraft can do T&G's with the best of them.  But guys have cracked up airplanes doing T&Gs in complex planes.  Guys have died.

To be honest, I think I can count the number of T&G's I've done since getting my ticket on the fingers of one hand, and that includes learning to fly the Mooney.  I usually don't land in the first place until and unless everything is really copacetic on the runway.  Don't know that I'll take off again in any event.

[Hank]

Neither I nor my CFII had problems with touch-and-goes in my Mooney, nor were those my first ones. Just give me a mile of runway. If the landing is screwy, it becomes either a miss or a full stop. Haven't done a stop and go since I was a Student Pilot.

TnG does require paying attention, but you should be alert and attentive on every landing. Once the nosewheel is down, raise the flaps all at way, glance at the trim indicator and turn it some if needed (my trim is often near the Takeoff mark when I taxi back to the hangar anyway), then power up and rotate at normal speed.

its difficult to confuse reaching out with a finger to raise flaps while holding the throttle at Idle with letting go of the throttle and reaching up for the gear. Anything can happen, though, and just about everything is recorded in the annals of the NTSB. Taking off is dangerous in itself, plus it requires the additional dangers of flight, maneuvering flight to get back to the runway, then the dangerous phase of landing. Staying in your car is SO much safer.  

[ArtVandelay]

If T&Gs are never practiced, what about go arounds? They are basically the same process, and the go around may be unexpected, bad time to try something you've never practiced.

[chrisk]

I've done plenty of T&Gs.  Always on a long runway and mostly during the day.   My only T&Gs at night were on a well light 6500' runway, with an instructor in the plane.

[pwhicks]

I can contribute to this thread first hand.  Last year, I was "THAT guy".

Labor day, 2014, I was educated by my father in law on the used airplane market as he was shopping for his 201.  I instantly went from flying as a unrealized dream to...this is gonna happen and soon.  I set very specific goals and pursued them hard.

I got my medical Sept 8 and jumped in with the first CFI I met in a sketchy 172.  Meanwhile, I was searching for a plane and rented a hangar in advance since the airfield nearby is packed.

In early October, I flew my new CFII who was also a A&P to Maine with me to pick up my 201...with the caveat that we might have to fly home commercial (her caveat).  We bought the plane and started our way back to TX.  I got to fly the 201 from take off to airport in sight...me landing was not a good idea.  I also can give advice to the people who ask about not doing a pre-buy.  New guy...didn't do a pre-buy and some things were missed that were unexpected major expenses later in the year such as a dented nose gear truss (4AMU).  The most dangerous impact of not getting a pre-buy was not noticing a few abnormalities with the engine maintenance when a part of the engine (one of those tubes on #4) worked its way loose and we lost half our oil between KY and TX on a 5 hour leg.

Back to the point...>$4k for student pilot insurance with a hull value set at $60k.  The plane needed some fairly vigorous TLC from our local trusted mechanic...all the while I still wanted my license!  After finding out how expensive it was to fix ANYTHING on the plane and having several things needing immediate attention prior to me flying it again, I continued on with a 152/172 regimen.  My mechanic is his wisdom might have slow rolled on fixing things too.  I am totally thankful that I did rent the Cessnas.  If I had done any of those early landings in my Mooney, my fuel tanks would have worked like a crop duster sprayer.  

I also learned that the first year of plane ownership, you find out what was deferred by the previous owner.  My shock disks were 10-15 years old...technically passed the "tests" but rode like a hard tail.  Brakes were not going to make a second year...etc.  After replacing them at annual, it is night and day different and I'm thankful I didn't learn on the plane and abuse it more.

I passed my Private check ride before Thanksgiving.

Now, here is where I personally think it is OK to think about getting transitioned to a Mooney.  I had my 201 a little early and paid the price for insurance, storage, etc.  I didn't fly my plane again until after I got my license and things stopped breaking enough to get and stay airborne.  Jerry Johnson start teaching me Mooney flying in my own plane.  Jerry and I flew several times before he signed me off in the 201 satisfying both the insurance company and my Complex rating. Not being a pilot prior...engine and prop management was the hardest thing to grasp (JPI 830 helps).  If you are flying your own plane, you will not want to do the lean to rough and then back a couple twists...that will translate into a bunch of money in the future.  You will need a mentor or three.

My next goal was to get as many cross country hours as possible to start my IFR process as well as get familiar with the Mooney.  I flew it just about any time it wasn't snowing or lightning wanting as much experience as possible without others lives in my hands.  By March my wife and I were ready to go on our first trip...which was FL.  VFR...  We had 5 days and we wanted to see my family.  VFR made it so that we saw the family for 18 hours (including sleep).  Staying free of clouds is sometimes pretty difficult.  We had to fly via OH with snow below us to get home...and we eventually had to leave the plane in OK and catch a ride to TX...perfect trip.  Well, perfect if you mean it was intended to motivate me to get my IFR rating and realize that I was at the beginning of a lot a lessons.  In OK, I learned you have to check for water EVERY time...I had so much water in my left tank, 8 cups came out before I saw any blue (hmmm, when was that o ring changed last in that fuel cap?).

The "new" plane had radio issues on our trip and I dropped it off at Trevor's in Denton immediately upon our return and found out what it costs to upgrade a panel...in this case almost the same as I paid for the airplane itself...but hey, we're 2020 compliant now and we're in this for the long haul, right?  If you had asked me my budget on Labor Day and then checked with me on what was spent by May...before the $8k "annual", I would have said that would never happen.  If, I had that budget to begin with (and I could not have), other well loved planes might have been within reason.  We love our plane and it is customized now and my mechanic blesses it...so satisfaction without remorse is the only way to live with it.

After getting the plane back in May, I had a consortium of CFII's that worked together to achieve my goal of IFR in a month.  It took multiple CFII's to hit the target due to scheduling and my "goals".  TX in May is a good place to learn about clouds.  I also found it good to hear different perspectives and get critiqued with different words and concepts.  It took just under 40 days but we got through my check ride 2 days prior to our next scheduled cross country trip that was schedule for Dad's 75th birthday!  Learning IFR in the plane that you are going to fly is worth a TON.  I am very familiar with the GTN-750, Aspen and other tools at my disposal now (210 interface, etc).

The Mooney has been an excellent efficient platform.  When I needed "hours" in the log book, I could fly 6 to 8 GPH and enjoy things.  When I want to get somewhere, we put the throttle to the front and go.

My insurance dropped to 1/4 of what it was the first year with double the hull value once I had my IFR rating and hours built .  More importantly, I have become immersed in my love of flying and owning my own Mooney has allowed me to fly when I couldn't or wouldn't with a rental.  My first year, I had 260+ hours with over 40 IFR, 40 simulated, 175 cross country, 80 dual, and my favorite...218 hours in our 201.

If the airplane was a sunk cost, I "saved" money on my training.  To rent something even close for the 200+ hours I flew the Mooney it would have cost between $25k and $40k.  My average GPH was 8 at $4/gallon and the engine fund gets $15 per hour.  I rented the 152 for $95 wet.  No brainer.

If you can afford your own Mooney, get it!  If you are still occasionally finding yourself trying to crack concrete on landings...rent until you have more practice.  I also found Cessna CFI/CFIIs do NOT understand how to fly the Mooney like a Mooney CFII.  Get the right instructor for learning how to fly the Mooney.

[Hank]

Congratulations! You may have made an uninformed purchase, but Jerry is a great Mooney instructor! I flew with him at a MAPA PPP a month after getting the Complex endorsement and finishing my insurance dual; I reached 100 hours in my logbook flying to the clinic. Eight years later, my engine still has great compression (all were 78-80 at annual last weekend, lifting the A&P's feet off the ground once or twice). Treat her nice, fly like Jerry taught you, don't get over your head and you'll be fine.

Welcome to the club! 

[MyNameIsNobody]

Uh Oh...I am a lean (Big Pull) to rough and a couple of twists guy.  My engine is then LOP and I fine tune to my desired flow.  Is my engine going to blow up Whicks?  Enlighten me.  Full disclosure I am 650 hours into  a major and all was well at just completed annual.  I always welcome an education.  My engine took a hundred hours to spew oil after purchase.  That Pre-Buy thing is a good route to go down.  Sounds like you upgraded nicely on avionics.  Congrats on your IFR and on making good decisions on your X-Country with Commercial option...I wish I had your wallet for panel upgrades and on the 201 entry model.  Have fun.

[carusoam]

Cghij,

I was reporting what people have brought to the same discussion in several other threads over the years.

The nice part of TnGs...  It's your choice.

As for distractions, look them up.  The human brain has a few different versions of them.  They have a tendency to lead to gear-up landings.

people that don't believe distractions or think that won't happen to them are at a higher risk of having it happen.

you may also want to look up the thread where a Mooney pilot had a GU landing with his instructor on board.

As for calling it 'hog wash' and saying those people shouldn't be flying... That's a little rough on some people reading here.

 

for other long worn discussions look up the following....

some people don't use full flaps for landing.

some people prefer bladders.

some people like to pay more for a higher level of service.

 

let me know if I missed your point.  

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

I'm a big pull guy myself, that's how we did it in training with planes without engine monitors, don't know what he is talking about, this has been discussed ad nauseam, search for the "red box", consensus is it's easier on the engine then the slow twist.

[pwhicks]

My engine comment wasn't specifically saying...you do this...you'll have this happen.  There are tons of people on this forum with a wealth of experience and knowledge and history.

My point if elaborated further was that moving from a 2 knob plane to a 3 knob plane with a lot more going on and happening faster, I found it very easy to have the engine in the "red box" or areas of temperature my mentors didn't recommend for periods of flights.  The JPI helped a lot...the EGT guage on the plane failing did not help...

At cruise altitudes, it probably is pretty to close to pull to Rough then a couple turns for a nice Lean of Peak or Peak.

My first few months of flying I was NOT good at knowing what I was actually doing with the engine settings, although I was doing plenty of things...and sometimes I had to stop fiddling and just fly.  I am grateful for the amount of material available online to research and learn.

 

 

 

[MyNameIsNobody]

4 hours ago, C-GHIJ said:

Mistakes happen, that's what the instructor is there for.  No reason not to teach them.  The first time that they need to do them for real in a complex airplane would result in the same thing then by that logic.

I had one costly mistake in my Mooney.  An instructor was on board.  They are not infallible.  My insurance paid not hers.  

An audible gear alert can save a lot of time and money...

Touch and Go's with a Loooooong runway are a non-event.  Nice to have another competent pilot type thinking flaps and trim.  Once you are experienced in the airframe are they really necessary?

[MyNameIsNobody]

8 minutes ago, pwhicks said:

My engine comment wasn't specifically saying...you do this...you'll have this happen.  There are tons of people on this forum with a wealth of experience and knowledge and history.

My point if elaborated further was that moving from a 2 knob plane to a 3 knob plane with a lot more going on and happening faster, I found it very easy to have the engine in the "red box" or areas of temperature my mentors didn't recommend for periods of flights.  The JPI helped a lot...the EGT guage on the plane failing did not help...

At cruise altitudes, it probably is pretty to close to pull to Rough then a couple turns for a nice Lean of Peak or Peak.

My first few months of flying I was NOT good at knowing what I was actually doing with the engine settings, although I was doing plenty of things...and sometimes I had to stop fiddling and just fly.  I am grateful for the amount of material available online to research and learn.

 

 

 

O.K. Thanks for clarification.

I think addition of the Prop control is much ado about nothing, don't you?  You adjust the prop when you get in cruise and before you land.  That's it unless you decide to increase decrease RPM in cruise.  It just isn't a big deal.

Gear.  Now THAT is a BIG DEAL.  

Nanny's are cheap to buy/install and you generally shouldn't here them...They are available to give you a pre-stall alert which could be a life-saver OR a "You done good" if you are in the flare...

[steingar]

3 hours ago, teejayevans said:

If T&Gs are never practiced, what about go arounds? They are basically the same process, and the go around may be unexpected, bad time to try something you've never practiced.

Completely different process (going from taxing to flying and descending to ascending are different).  Besides, every landing is a go-around (and briefed as such) until touchdown is assured.  Just once the wheels are down, I prefer to keep them down.  If I've done due diligence in my final approach there should be no reason for them to leave the ground.

[Hank]

"Going from taxiing to flying" is unlike any touch and go I've ever done. Set the nose down, feet off the brakes, flaps up, glance at trim and adjust if ended, throttle in and rotate as normal. I rarely drop below 50 mph. 

[mike_elliott]

7 hours ago, pwhicks said:

If you can afford your own Mooney, get it!  If you are still occasionally finding yourself trying to crack concrete on landings...rent until you have more practice.  I also found Cessna CFI/CFIIs do NOT understand how to fly the Mooney like a Mooney CFII.  Get the right instructor for learning how to fly the Mooney.

+1

[Guest]

I'm doing my night rating in my 400, lots of touch and go landings involved,  many times chasing 152's and 172's around the pattern.  Even have had a few overshoots in the dark, for those a third hand would be helpful.

Clarence

[Ned Gravel]

Ignoring all the touch and go discussion, to get back to HC's original questions, I am going to take a stab at #4: "Any other factors that I have to consider?"

Mooneys demand stuff from their pilots.  It is not readily apparent to many, and to those of us who have built up close to 1,000 hours or more in them it is no longer considered a factor (although it should always be), but a Mooney will kill you if you do not pay attention.  By contrast, you have to work pretty hard to kill yourself in a 150 or 152. Those little trainers are forgiving.  Not so much for Mooneys.

We have heard that Mooneys either go down or slow down, but not both.  We have all heard about the controller joke that a Mooney has two returns on the radar screen, one for the aircraft and, five miles behind it, one for the pilot.  We are currently listening to the debate about doing touch and go's (with or without a Johnson bar) because a complex aircraft has too many things to do and think about to transition from landing to TOGA.

So, more important than being able to fly faster in a very stable IFR platform, know that you will have to be on your game more in flying a Mooney than in a 172.  Pay attention to everything.  Know your systems - fly the numbers.  

Just my 0.02.  I am not a flight instructor by any stretch of anyone's imagination.

 

[donkaye]

I just got back from a flight from Atlanta to Hanford, California.  The student did not have his private yet, but bought an Ovation 3.  Gutsy.  As far as the airplane goes, it is the best just purchased used airplane I have ever flown.  That was really a given in that Richard Simile from Premier was the broker.  The only thing wrong with it was a burnt out light in the headliner that illuminated the landing and taxi light switch.  The purchase was thoughtful in that the plane has WAAS so the upgrade to ADSB will be reasonably painless.  The flight took 13 hours flying at between 6 and 8 thousand feet fighting 25-30 knot headwinds all the way, and during that time I was able to teach a good portion of the G1000 including the use of the GFC 700.  He got comfortable flying the airplane smoothly, as I require.  On these kinds of trips working on landings is out of the question.  There was an especially difficult (for him) one coming into Tyler, Texas due to a large crosswind, but he followed me through it.  I kept the legs to between 2 and 2.5 hours so we had 7 landings on this trip including an instrument approach to his home airport in Hanford.

While I don't teach the Private, I will check him out in the airplane after he gets his Private.  I have found in 22 years of flight instructing the easiest students to teach are those with very little time and those with a lot of time.  That is because they eagerly listen to what I have to say, and willing take input without arguing about my methods to get them to where they want to go.  With my instruction time I can clearly and easily see what needs to be done even if most students don't.

Give me an open mind and I believe transitioning to a Mooney immediately after getting the Private is certainly doable.  If a good understanding of the pitch/power relationship, as described in my precision flying handout (anyone who wants it just let me know, its free) is followed, then learning in a Mooney should not be hard on the airplane--at all.

[carl]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

 

T & G , you just push the throttle and fly . nothing else has to be done. 

 

Full flaps , full nose up trim . for a smooth landing . T&G push the throttle in and fly the plane. 

No flaps , t & G , Push the throttle and fly the plane.

Sure you can reset flaps and trim , but really that is just for comfort .On a go around  you push the throttle in and fly the plane, in what ever configuration it is in.