Wesley brown Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 I am curious at what your lycoming carbureted engine temps are during climb out? This is my first 180 HP engine and I'm constantly watching my temps on my engine while running the engine during the break in period. I realize the pole maybe be deferent than what your seeing. If that's the case please feel free to explain what your normally see in your post. I'm sure this may help others in determining or trouble shooting engine characteristics or issues. Quote
bonal Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 Hi Wesley, sounds like your having fun with your new bird. I had a long post with lots of numbers and my PAD frose (pisses me off when it does that) I usually see around 380 to 390 in not too hot weather and just touching 400 when its hot out like over 100. Always climb at 120 or faster 2700rpm and WOT my EGT has no indications so it's not much use my oil temp even on the hottest days stays in the middle of the green. I have real old gauges but since they are younger than me I can't complain as they all work and are very consistent. Still learning with every flight even after 2.5 years with this airplane. Have fun 1 Quote
carusoam Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 You may want to reference the air speed and climb rates that you are using... Some people climb out at 120mph IAS to maintain CHTs in their Cs... (I did) Best regards, -a- Quote
rbridges Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 I climb at 105knots or so. Â I keep CHT <360 and EGT <1380. Â Full MP, RPM and full rich. Â 1 Quote
Wesley brown Posted March 8, 2015 Author Report Posted March 8, 2015 I think I have to change my climb mixture method. I was wondering about what you guys used to climb out as in terms of rpm and MP psi? My book tells me to climb out at 25/2500. I don't think this is allowing the fuel enrichment to be engaged on my carberator which is a major factor in cooling the engine during climb out. Quote
Wesley brown Posted March 8, 2015 Author Report Posted March 8, 2015 You may want to reference the air speed and climb rates that you are using... Some people climb out at 120mph IAS to maintain CHTs in their Cs... (I did) Best regards, -a- I'm always shooting for 120 MPH and 25/2500. I'm seeing 430/1450 on temps. As I'm learning this plane I'm constantly watching everything! I'm not sure my CHT gauge is very accurate as well! Since this engine is new and I/we didn't build it I'm hoping it will soon break in and loosen up enough for the temps to relax a bit. On my grumman there was a baffle to help air move over the #1 cylinder to make it to the #3 cylinder. Number 1 cylinder is extremely cool and three is high. Does anyone have something like this on there mooney? Keep in mind I have the dog house on my engine I'm not sure if that's good or bad? Quote
Wesley brown Posted March 8, 2015 Author Report Posted March 8, 2015 I climb at 105knots or so. Â I keep CHT <360 and EGT <1380. Â Full MP, RPM and full rich. I will do this on the next flight for sure. Thanks for everyone's replies. I have to watch my rpm it will easily get to 2800 rpm without the prop ran out a little. Next flight I will go full MP and 2700 rpm at 120 mph. Quote
Jim Peace Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 Do you have the original cowling?  I did the LASAR cowl and CHT came down a lot...........  I would not do 2700 RPM....the book says mandatory that you reduce to 2550 to 2600 right after takeoff.....  How would you explain your actions of going against the  POH  if you had to do a carpet dance? Quote
Wesley brown Posted March 8, 2015 Author Report Posted March 8, 2015 Do you have the original cowling?  I did the LASAR cowl and CHT came down a lot...........  I would not do 2700 RPM....the book says mandatory that you reduce to 2550 to 2600 right after takeoff.....  How would you explain your actions of going against the  POH  if you had to do a carpet dance? That's surely true on rpm but I don't see any harm on a higher MP to ensure that the carb enrichment is engaged. 2500/2550 should be ok. Lower power settings should help cool the engine to a point! Quote
carusoam Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 Also... Compare your rpm guage to an rpm app on your phone or iPad... They can have a tendency to be set poorly after decades of use. Usually a mechanic will set the rpm limit to match published engine specs. What device are you using for CHTs and EGTs? So many chances to accumulate an error. Best regards, -a- Quote
Wesley brown Posted March 8, 2015 Author Report Posted March 8, 2015 I did not realize I phone had a app? Which do you use and how does that work? Westach are my gauges and I don't trust them at all. My EGT gauges especially . Quote
ryoder Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 It's hard to keep mine cooler than 400. 400 is still in the green but hot. Quote
mike20papa Posted March 8, 2015 Report Posted March 8, 2015 Mixture rich, WOT & 2700 rpm climbing - I see around 1250 EGT's & 360 CHT (if it's below 50F - I'll close cowling flaps a bit) and even in TX summer around 380 max. I have the cowling closure and I usually climb around 110 - 120 mph. I then lean to target around 1300 to 1350 EGT's above 3000ft. I don't see big difference in cooling temps with climb speed.  If CHT's are a concern, check the wool baffle seals around the lower part of the front air dam below the spinner. The original wool baffle seals are often missing, or no longer fitting - especially if new light weight starter & alternator installed. The fun part - sealing off the prop. gov. oil line and around the alt/gen braket. Here's a photo of mine after rework. The wool material available from AC Spruce. Quote
Wesley brown Posted March 8, 2015 Author Report Posted March 8, 2015 Mixture rich, WOT & 2700 rpm climbing - I see around 1250 EGT's & 360 CHT (if it's below 50F - I'll close cowling flaps a bit) and even in TX summer around 380 max. I have the cowling closure and I usually climb around 110 - 120 mph. I then lean to target around 1300 to 1350 EGT's above 3000ft. I don't see big difference in cooling temps with climb speed.  If CHT's are a concern, check the wool baffle seals around the lower part of the front air dam below the spinner. The original wool baffle seals are often missing, or no longer fitting - especially if new light weight starter & alternator installed. The fun part - sealing off the prop. gov. oil line and around the alt/gen braket. Here's a photo of mine after rework. The wool material available from AC Spruce. Good info coming from a mooney m20a owner now I know what to expect. I'll have to check the wool and see what shapes it's in or even if it is there? Quote
Hank Posted March 9, 2015 Report Posted March 9, 2015 Most of the year I climb WOT/2700 at Vy all the way to cruise altitude. In summer, I still do this for the first couple thousand feet, but oil temp is usually my limiting factor. As it approaches the top of the green, I'll reduce climb rate / increase speed to hold temps down. Don't think I've ever had a problem with CHT getting high. (My cowl flaps are fixed.) Going from memory (I didn't look this afternoon as a refresher), my Target EGT is ~1300-1325; today I peaked at 1500. Remember, the values aren't important, what matters is distance from peak. Since I just had my carb heat box rebuilt and picked up 10 mph, I'm expecting to have to relearn all of this in the summer. But I do enjoy the extra speed! Quote
carusoam Posted March 9, 2015 Report Posted March 9, 2015 Mike also supplied nice photos of an alternator and sky-tec starter. Nice improvements to go with an eight sensor CHT/EGT monitor.... As for an rpm APP, search the App Store... A few dollars may be required. It uses the sound of the engine to determine the RPM. Modern magic! 1 Quote
Wesley brown Posted March 9, 2015 Author Report Posted March 9, 2015 Most of the year I climb WOT/2700 at Vy all the way to cruise altitude. In summer, I still do this for the first couple thousand feet, but oil temp is usually my limiting factor. As it approaches the top of the green, I'll reduce climb rate / increase speed to hold temps down. Don't think I've ever had a problem with CHT getting high. (My cowl flaps are fixed.) Going from memory (I didn't look this afternoon as a refresher), my Target EGT is ~1300-1325; today I peaked at 1500. Remember, the values aren't important, what matters is distance from peak. Since I just had my carb heat box rebuilt and picked up 10 mph, I'm expecting to have to relearn all of this in the summer. But I do enjoy the extra speed! Good info for sure. If you had your carb heat rebuilt I assume if was acting As an obstruction and also allowing heat to enter your induction system. It funny how the small things add up! On your EGT are you running 150 deg rich of peak or 100 deg? Quote
BigTex Posted March 9, 2015 Report Posted March 9, 2015 Wesley a couple of thoughts...  1. Fuel Enrichment - I've found that it does help but not enough to overcome the poor cooling you get with the doghouse baffling. So the answer is to get to cruise climb ASAP (120-130MPH) and if you're still about 400df on CHT, you'll need to bring back your power. I personally climb out at 125 MPH with 25 squared. CHT's are in the 380 range.  2. EGT - Meaningless number. You're looking for deltas not actual values. What one person has or uses for EGT temps will not relate to your plane.  3. Don't use power settings from any Mooney that's fuel injected or has a newer C model that doesn't have a doghouse. or anyone with a modified cowling. Those setting don't apply to your plane. Might as well be using the POH settings from brands, B, C or P. Quote
Andy95W Posted March 9, 2015 Report Posted March 9, 2015 Wesley a couple of thoughts...  1. Fuel Enrichment - I've found that it does help but not enough to overcome the poor cooling you get with the doghouse baffling. So the answer is to get to cruise climb ASAP (120-130MPH) and if you're still about 400df on CHT, you'll need to bring back your power. I personally climb out at 125 MPH with 25 squared. CHT's are in the 380 range.  2. EGT - Meaningless number. You're looking for deltas not actual values. What one person has or uses for EGT temps will not relate to your plane.  3. Don't use power settings from any Mooney that's fuel injected or has a newer C model that doesn't have a doghouse. or anyone with a modified cowling. Those setting don't apply to your plane. Might as well be using the POH settings from brands, B, C or P. Agree with everything except the comments about the doghouse. The doghouse (plenum) concept is very good at putting cooling air where it needs to be if it is maintained properly. The cowling design itself is somewhat inefficient and is the real reason for poor cooling. Poor maintenance on it generally accounts for the rest. 1 Quote
Hank Posted March 9, 2015 Report Posted March 9, 2015 Good info for sure. If you had your carb heat rebuilt I assume if was acting As an obstruction and also allowing heat to enter your induction system. It funny how the small things add up! On your EGT are you running 150 deg rich of peak or 100 deg? I've made repairs to the doghouse the last two annuals. I generally fly per the MAPA PPP, where MP + RPM = 47, except when I use 46 (down low, and high where I can't make 22"), at the reviled 50ROP. I'm at > 800 SMOH, all compressions > 74 at annual in January. I do have the guppy mouth closure. Between fixing the doghouse for better cooling, and making the carb heat actually close, I'll be relearning all of my engine management this year. Quote
Wesley brown Posted March 10, 2015 Author Report Posted March 10, 2015 Well the baffling is in exceptional shape and has been maintained greatly by the previous owner. I did find that around the starter the baffle seal was missing and that the alternator seal was behind the baffle. Other than that I think I have a couple of bad. Egt sensors reading high and sporadic. Quote
Wesley brown Posted March 20, 2015 Author Report Posted March 20, 2015 Well I report good news! Today we completed the oil line reroute nag and minor changd to the cooler and maintenance. Now I see 350-360 on all cylinder compared to the almost 400 degrees on head temps. My oil temp went down to 190 from 210-220. I still see 430 degrees on one cylinder on climb out and I have to bring the nose down to 120 mph to keep it there. As soon as I level off though temps drop dramatically! This mod is worth it for sue and I even think if I got a heat shield sleeve for the lines it will help even more. One of the major factor is increasing airflow through the cylinders with the lines removed. Not that the lines are much cooler bellow. I had a temp gun and very little temp differences with it being next to the exhaust. I did buy two 90 degree oil line fitting for better fitment rather than the 45 deg that it had. Quote
carusoam Posted March 20, 2015 Report Posted March 20, 2015 Just a note on elbows... 90° fittings have a higher pressure drop across them than 45° fittings. It will have less flow at the same pressure. This is more chemical engineering advice than aviation. If you see higher oil temps now than before, it is something to keep in mind... Winter temperatures would elevate this situation more. Best regards, -a- Quote
Wesley brown Posted March 20, 2015 Author Report Posted March 20, 2015 I appreciate this input it certainly makes sense. Today's temps were I bit warmer and I saw about the same pressure as before. The temps actually are lower and I'm happy that they are. Once the cooler wether sets in again the story might change. Quote
Dave Morris Posted March 22, 2015 Report Posted March 22, 2015 Yikes! 400 on climbout? If any of my cylinders hit that I would be inspecting the doghouse for holes. Â Your engine can fly all day long at 2700 RPM. I only back the prop off just enough to verify it is working correctly, like maybe to 2650 during the climb to altitude. And never touch the throttle. Leave it balls to the wall. There is no reason at all to back off the throttle during the climb. I think there have been tons of documents written to that effect over the history of Mooney. If your EGTs are at 1400 during the climbout, how high do they go at peak? Because while CHTs can be compared between all of us, we cannot really compare EGTs across different airplanes, because the sensors are installed in slightly different places. EGT is really only referenced with respect to whatever it peaks at, while CHT is an absolute temperature. If you are flying with high power levels and closer than 100 degrees richer than peak, you're in the "red box", mixture-wise, and might want to take a look at that. My EGTs are often up in the mid 1300's on takeoff, and that is of huge concern to me right now. Â Dave Morris N1960.com Quote
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