learning in a ranger

[jix]

I am looking for a first airplane and have been looking for quite a while now.  I have given a lot of thought to many things but the one thing I am sure about is that I havnt thought of everything so I thought I would turn to the guys and gals out there who remember their first days of flight.

 

Some of the things I have thought of are, 1. I dont want to rent a plane to train in because it just seems like too much of a waste of my money. I want to use the cash towards my own plane and its upkeep.

2. I dont want something so underpowered that Ill be unhppy with it the first couple hundred hours. I want somehting I can fly happily for several years.. Ill need to fly pretty regularly from SE Colorado , to West Central Texas pretty reguarly occasionally bringing one or 2 people back with me. some of the reasons I am considering the Ranger is because of the range and useful load, I know you dont get both but the distance I would need to go would allow me to reduce fuel to increase the load some.  Also  I dont want this to be a 4-5 hr trip ( not that I dont love to fly) but the idea of a 140, sport or anything that is under 180 hp  just dont quite seem like what I have in mind.

 

I called a guy about a bonanza 35, was a prettty nice looking plane with great hrs on it. decent price but he didnt want to sell it to me, told me that it was no good for a person with no hrs. That its a plane for more experienced pilots,  while I respect his regard for peoples well being I dont see how that makes much sense since its suposedly way easier to land a tricycle  style gear then a tail dragger and

most people this guys age learned with a tail dragger. maybe im wrong.

 

Anyhow thanks for reading this far. Any feedback would be appriciated. The Ranger I am looking at is older with lower hrs on it and needs a lot of cosmetic work but  seems like it would realy fit the bill.

Thanks in advance

[Rwsavory]

Welcome.

I assume that when you refer to training you mean for your PPL and that you have not soloed. With that in mind, I think it would be wise for you to defer purchasing an airplane until at least after your first solo. The money you will spend on a rental is not wasted, because you will need to concentrate on learning to control the airplane and not be distracted by ownership issues. Also, a trainer has simpler systems, and that let's you focus on the important basics of flying.

When I learned how to fly a single engine airplane, a long time ago, my family owned a Comanche, which is similar in complexity to a Mooney. However, all of my pre-solo training was done in a Cherokee 140. After solo I transitioned to the Comanche to complete my SEL. This let me make my worst mistakes in a very forgiving plane, and saved the nicer plane from abuse.

Take your time and learn how to fly now. There will be plenty of time for you to learn how to own a plane later.

Good luck.

[Mooneymite]

If you look at how the military has done ab initio flight training in the past, it's obvious that there are certain advantages to starting out in a more advanced plane. However, notice that as the military budgets are being squeezed, they are going to a program where newbies arrive at flight school with a PPL....which they typically get flying basic Cessnas, etc.

Starting in a basic trainer makes economic sense. It's also a good idea to beat a rental up while you're getting the hang of landing.

However, there is some efficiency in starting out in the plane you will eventually fly. Get in the habit of putting the gear down from day one!

[carusoam]

What kind of car did you learn to drive for your first 5,000 miles?

If you say a high performance car with a manual transmission, we are going to need speak with your parents!

Learning to fly is a personal challenge. Judging speed, altitudes, and rates of change in a high stress environment are fun...

Increasing the challenges by using a Mooney for training may not save money

'Wasting money' is hard to measure until after you get started.

Repeating lessons gets expensive.

Taking time off from training leads to repeating lessons....

Get started training, start looking for a Mooney that matches your mission. See what you can finish first. PPL vs proper plane acquisition?

Expect that it takes time and money. Things will get in the way.

Flying various airplanes broadens your experience.

I trained in a 1.6l ford escort and C152.

Best regards,

-a-

[jix]

actually learne to drive in a 1963 dumptruck with a 2 spd rearend. Thanks for the posts guys, its nice to get real insight.

I think for the pre solo hrs I am actually going to take heed to the good advice here and wait to buy. who knows, maybe God has a perfect mooney in mind for me

but not yet.

Its not a long time and the idea of letting their warior take the beating on my first few landings does make more sense.

I have god only knows how many hours logged on flight sims. I know its not entirely the same thing but I have also been up in friends airplanes and have flown some. so I do have some conceptual knowledge when it comes to maintaining headings and altitudes etc. no lanings though.. only sims and again. i think the landings in a rent would make more sense tilll i solo.

again, thanks a whole lot guys.

sincerely,

[WardHolbrook]

There is nothing insurmountable about learning to fly in a Mooney. All it's really going to take is a bit more money and perhaps not even much more of that. Guys learn to fly in much more complex aircraft. (I've got a CFI buddy teaching two kids how to fly in their daddy's DA42 Twinstar and they're doing pretty good actually.) It probably won't much more if any time, but as in all cases, you'll need to find the right instructor. When it comes to training, it's all about the instructor and you'll not only need to find someone who "clicks" with you as a primary student and also knows his way around Mooneys as well. That's could be a tall order since that person probably won't be the new kid CFI at the local flight school. I'd suggest that you call your aircraft insurance broker prior to getting too excited. It's going to cost more for the insurance for a while and you will likely find  that not every company will be willing to write the policy. 

[Seth]

Smart choice.

 

As suggested, solo in a rental, get those firm "arrivals"  in a rental, and then prior to getting your PPL, which will take longer if you want to get the PPL in a Mooney, or right after getting your PPL, purchase the Mooney.

 

Early short body Mooney's are the best value out there.  A sweet handling airplane, retract, that goes 140 knots for the same price as a 172 that will push 105, maybe 110 on a good day.

 

Good luck!

 

-Seth

[Hank]

I bought my Ranger five weeks after my PPL checkride. Getting insurance was a challenge, and it ran $3100 the first year. I put a solid 100 hours in, so the next year was only $1700. When I picked up my Instrument rating, it fell to only $1100.

My suggestion: learn to land well using someone else's plane. Look for a good Mooney--find George Perry's excellent list on this site of what to look for when shopping for a Mooney. When you find one, and the inspection goes well, buy it. If you are still working on your PPL, talk to your instructor about the wisdom of transitioning vs waiting. You will have some required dual instruction before flying the Mooney solo anyway.

A Mooney must be flown precisely to make good landings. Fly that rental until your landings are smooth almost all the time. Fly the rental as precisely on speed and on altitude as possible, until you are consistently right. THEN fly the Mooney. Trainers will still land nicely if you are 5 knots too fast, a Mooney will not, it will either float 1000' or more or you will force it down (look up 'pilot induced oscillation,' a very bad thing!)

Hope your training goes well!

[Bob - S50]

Just as an aside, since you mentioned you were also looking at a Bonanza.  If you are thinking about going that route, look very closely at weight and balance.  In the V tails, they have a pretty narrow CG range.  I looked at one but found that I could not put 4 adults in it without exceeding the aft CG.

 

Decide what the most extreme loads you might encounter.

 

Assume you will sit in the front and put the heaviest passenger next to you with the lighter 2 in the back. Baggage?  See if you are still within CG limits.

 

Then see how much a single passenger can weigh while sitting next to you with no baggage.

 

In the Mooney, you almost have to try to exceed the limits.

 

Bob

[gsxrpilot]

Hey Jix,

 

I was planning to do the very same thing.  And it was all about learning to fly the most efficient and cheapest way possible.  It is an expensive hobby and if the cash is available it made sense to me.  I'm so glad I didn't do it.  Assuming this flying hobby sticks with you, there will first be the PPL and then followed closely by the IA or flying will be mostly limited to nice weekends in the pattern.  

 

I was also like you in that I had many hours and many years in light planes before I ever started lessons.  Therefore I knew it would stick.

 

The PPL is so much about flying, weather, regulations,etc. and very little about the specific airplane.  So use the simplest rental airplane you can find.  It will be cheap and any complexity of airframe (retracts), powerplant (prop), or panel (glass, gps, autopilot), etc. will be completely wasted on you.  And will actually extend the hours to the PPL.  

 

The IA is much more about the systems of the airplane.  Getting it configured, slowed and stable on approaches is a big part.  And of course, using everything in the panel is critical.  After all, you'll spend all your time staring at it.  Since the IA is all about learning systems and equipment, learning what you will use and fly is valuable.

 

Get the PPL in a cheap rental that you can abuse.  As long as it has wings and a throttle, it's all you need.  Then buy a Mooney.  Get it with the IFR panel you want/can afford and get your IA in your airplane.  The repetition and hours spent with an instructor using the systems in your airplane will be invaluable.  

 

Just my $0.02

[bonal]

My experience I bought a 150 and started training got my PPL enjoyed the 150 for a couple years after then sold it after buying our Mooney. I would say there are as many things you have to learn about owning an airplane as there are flying it. I would not say it can't be done with a Mooney but I am glad I kept it simple and I think the 150 is a better trainer than the Mooney. If you find the right one you can fly it for your training and if you take care of it sell it after you put a hundred or so hours on it for what you paid.

Best of luck.

[rbridges]

  On 10/13/2014 at 1:12 PM, jix said:

actually learne to drive in a 1963 dumptruck with a 2 spd rearend. Thanks for the posts guys, its nice to get real insight.

I think for the pre solo hrs I am actually going to take heed to the good advice here and wait to buy. who knows, maybe God has a perfect mooney in mind for me

but not yet.

Its not a long time and the idea of letting their warior take the beating on my first few landings does make more sense.

I have god only knows how many hours logged on flight sims. I know its not entirely the same thing but I have also been up in friends airplanes and have flown some. so I do have some conceptual knowledge when it comes to maintaining headings and altitudes etc. no lanings though.. only sims and again. i think the landings in a rent would make more sense tilll i solo.

again, thanks a whole lot guys.

sincerely,

 

glad that you're open to input.  Looking back at my training, I would never never never let someone train for the PPL in my mooney.  I beat my instructor's 172 so bad on the runway.  You definitely don't want to do that in a retract.

[Mooneymite]

  On 10/14/2014 at 2:47 AM, rbridges said:

glad that you're open to input.  Looking back at my training, I would never never never let someone train for the PPL in my mooney.  I beat my instructor's 172 so bad on the runway.  You definitely don't want to do that in a retract.

 

True....When you're first learning, sometimes, even when you do everything just right, the runway will rise up and smack the landing gear.  Only after lots of landings can you convince the runway to "stay put".  

[ryoder]

Find the cheapest rental you can for your training. It's all VFR and the glass just gets in the way of learning and takes more time to preflight. I flew glass twice and it's cool but learn the basics in a 172M like I did and you won't regret it. You could also buy one but they are quite pricey since they are used as trainers. A 150 is cheaper but tiny inside.

[bonal]

Me @ 216lbs instructors were all under 200 fit just fine. yes its close but no problem for a 150. with both over 200 start to think about GW. Honestly we flew over gross many times on very hot days 100plus never had a problem getting at least 200fpm. as a trainer you cant beat it cept for a cub but good luck finding one of those for under 15 grand. and I do miss comming in 40 deg flaps behind the power curve doing about 38mph and stoppng in under 200ft never did get to fly it backwards though darn it!

[pinerunner]

Cessna landing gear is pretty rugged.  So is the old Piper Cherokee I think and very wide. Starting in these makes sense to me. Rent to solo at least and maybe even to PPL. You don't don't want to be grounded dealing wih "1st-year squawks" when you're trying to do x-countrys and prepare for the check ride. That would drive me nuts.

[M20F]

I would add learning how to own an airplane is almost as much work as learning how to be a pilot. How to handle insurance, maintainence, etc. takes some know how (buying is complicated as well). Better to get yourself through at least PPL and then start looking, having to focus on all the challenges that come with ownership (there are benefits as well!) on top of training is just going to be a distraction for you.

From a cost stand point you really need to fly 100+ hours a year to get any kind of cost savings versus renting as well. Owning really is more about conveience and bragging rights than it is about saving money.

[bonal]

I would add learning how to own an airplane is almost as much work as learning how to be a pilot. How to handle insurance, maintainence, etc. takes some know how (buying is complicated as well). Better to get yourself through at least PPL and then start looking, having to focus on all the challenges that come with ownership (there are benefits as well!) on top of training is just going to be a distraction for you.

That's what I said. But owning a C150 is much less a challenge than a complex. If you find the right one you can fly it for a year get an annual for under 2 grand and sell it for what you paid liability insurance will only cost a few hundred net cost is a lot less than rental and you can fly it when ever you want.

[M20F]

  On 10/15/2014 at 12:19 AM, bonal said:

That's what I said. But owning a C150 is much less a challenge than a complex. If you find the right one you can fly it for a year get an annual for under 2 grand and sell it for what you paid liability insurance will only cost a few hundred net cost is a lot less than rental and you can fly it when ever you want.

The key is finding the right one which if you have no experience in what to look for, it can end poorly. For every story of getting the perfect plane there is one where somebody doesn't. The other reality is a good chunk of people (and not meant to discourage OP) who start their PPL never finish or once they do they stop flying all together shortly thereafter for a variety of reasons. You can make the argument a lot of differing ways but for most just working with a part 61 school is going to serve them a lot better than going the owner route, especially if they have no real aviation experience or local real life support to guide you.

[bonal]

I bought my 150 before my first lesson as for me this was a motivation factor. If you are renting well what's the big deal if you decide to quit. I had no experience when I bought it and yes I got lucky that it was a good airplane. Based at a real small airport the school only had one rental and it was being used quite a bit by the other students so availability was very limited in fact the school even approached me to see if I would let them use it for some of the other students.

I am not trying to argue what is the best way to go I'm just sharing my experience thinking this was what OP was looking for.

[ryoder]

I was also in the market for a 150 when I began my private training, actually after my first lesson I stopped flying and concentrated on learning the knowledge test info and searching for a trainer to buy. I too big to fit a 150 but if I could have fit it I would have bought one. How about an IFR 152? You could always lease it back to the FBO for IFR training which is a lot less stressful on the airplane than new students learning how to land. I would like to own a 152 or 162 or RV12 and a Mooney but only own half of each. I plan on going all the way to CFI and could use the 152 for training students and the Mooney for IFR and complex.

[urbanti]

Congratulations on your decision to pursue your pilot's certificate.

There are a lot of good arguments for waiting to purchase an airplane until after you get your license, or at least until after you solo.

I bought a C-172 after I got my certificate and it kept me safe (from myself) and taught me a lot about flying.

The Bonanza I fly now is fast and capable, but would be a terrible investment for you. It only has one set of brake pedals, on the left seat, and your CFI would not have brakes in the right seat. It might be hard to get pre-solo instruction in a high performance retract with no brakes for the CFI.

The early Mooneys that you are contemplating are also awesome aircraft, but not IMO well suited for a student either. A couple of bounces that would be no big deal in a Cessna could result in a prop strike and engine rebuild.

Again, welcome to the community and good luck with your training!

Tim