Aspen vs Steam/Mechanical

[Hank]

I don't think Brittians are made any longer. They are just supporting the products they produced. When I went looking for Accutrak/Accuflight stuff back in the 90s I was having a hard time locating anything. That is what took me down the STEC path.

 

I love my AccuTrack and AccuFlight, but I never can remember which is which. One runs the heading bug, the other is interfaced to the 430W, and all I have to do is manage power and altitude to fly an approach. But I usually hand fly [with the heading bug!] anyway.

 

The blue diamond is the ground track. The arrow was pointing to the wind arrow and the numbers were providing wind direction and speed. Lousy photo...

This photo is a little better. The blue triangle at the end of the CDI needle is the ground track. The stuff in the red circle is the winds aloft.

 

I've seen the wind direction and speed on G530's, but don't know what I need to add to my 430W to have it show, or if it's even possible. The 530 has a much larger screen with room for additional information like that. There's been a couple of times when I would have loved to have seen the actual headwind numbers, like when my groundspeed hit 68 knots while indicating 135 MPH at 10,000 msl . . .

 

Ya'll enjoy your nice displays. I'll eventually have to learn them, but not as long as Brittain is still around and servicing their units. Hate to think what it would take to install an electric AP in my little C, much less add glass to interface with it.

[Piloto]

 I don't think modern digital type of indication is better than an old fashion steam gauge type. After all, ladies and pilots watches still use hours and minutes hands. But if you are going to have a numerical/text type indicator make sure the font is big enough to read it without a magnifier. The Aspen and some of these new engine monitors have too small of a font to make it worth it replacing the steam gauges.

 

José

[Marauder]

I don't think modern digital type of indication is better than an old fashion steam gauge type. After all, ladies and pilots watches still use hours and minutes hands. But if you are going to have a numerical/text type indicator make sure the font is big enough to read it without a magnifier. The Aspen and some of these new engine monitors have too small of a font to make it worth it replacing the steam gauges.

José

Have you flown with one? I wear reading glasses but I have no problem reading everything that is presented on any of the displays.

[Marauder]

Have you flown with one? I wear reading glasses but I have no problem reading everything that is presented on any of the displays.

And BTW, I know Bob B has an PFD. His eyes are 20 years older than mine. Wonder if he would care to comment on whether or not he has difficulty reading the display.

[N601RX]

Hard to see the blue triangle in this photo for your wind correction course, but it's there.

I gotta give it to Hank, the aspen, or g500 won't interface to the Brittan AP. I don't know of a glass solution that does. I didn't know you could even still buy a Brittan AP, so I certainly understand why not many are going through the expense to certify with the brittan. That's not to say it's a bad ap, just that it lacks fiscal sense for aspen to develope the iterface and go thru the cert process.

Why would the Brittain not work with an Aspen/Garmin?  Brittian requires the same LT/RT deviation signals that most other autopilots require. I know Aspen provides these signals.  The Brittain STC is written in a way that says it is compatible with any source that provides a LR/RT deviation signal.  It does not limit you to certain manufactures or product lines.

[Marauder]

Why would the Brittain not work with an Aspen/Garmin? Brittian requires the same LT/RT deviation signals that most other autopilots require. I know Aspen provides these signals. The Brittain STC is written in a way that says it is compatible with any source that provides a LR/RT deviation signal. It does not limit you to certain manufactures or product lines.

I suspect it is more a certification thing. You are absolutely right about the signals. My STEC is analog, the Aspen is digital. They use an ACU box to convert the digital to analog inputs for the STEC. I think for the King series they use an EA100 controller for the attitude based input but still provide right/left deviation inputs for the navigation.

I will be calling them today about their ADS-B stuff and will ask this question.

[mike_elliott]

Why would the Brittain not work with an Aspen/Garmin? Brittian requires the same LT/RT deviation signals that most other autopilots require. I know Aspen provides these signals. The Brittain STC is written in a way that says it is compatible with any source that provides a LR/RT deviation signal. It does not limit you to certain manufactures or product lines.

I don't know but my guess is the FAA is the reason, wanting someone to put the system thru a certification process. I don't see where it makes economic sense for aspen to pursue this for an autopilot that's been out of production

[N601RX]

The Brittian STC directs you to connect it to the Standard LT/RT deviation output of the "Nav Source". Do you really need Aspens or Garmins approval or certification to do something the Brittain STC has already given you permission to do?   If the answer is yes then every Brittain install that is connected to a 430/530 or any other King or Garmin GPS or radio is illegal because they have never been specifically certified to work together.

 

For a autopilot that uses a digital bus type interface  or a more complex interface then yes they would have to be certified to work together.

[Hank]

If Aspen will work with my Brittain, I may need to start saving my pennies, and put it on the list right after ADS-B compliance and something to display the "free" traffic and weather it will give me (free for how many AMU again?).

[ryoder]

When I first bought the Mooney I thought I would want the $5,000 VFR only Aspen because it looked like it would be simple to install and I was wrong.  The avionics shops want $5,000 in labor to install a $5,000 piece of equipment.  If the install was 1k I would probably go for it but for now I have more important things to worry about.  I might even keep the six pack forever and swap out vacuum instruments for electrical when they break.  I like the look of the digital attitude indicator with a built in slip indicator.  That would be very visible at night.  I am waiting for someone to make a round gauge directional gyro that is a lcd display of a magnetometer.

[Bill Dunn]

We have installed numerous aspens and had very few with issues. The only issue I see a lot is after ~1-2 years the altitude and airspeed tend to be off, I calibrate almost every one that comes in for an IFR cert. It is a very simple fix and it costs max 2 hours of labor (depending if you calibrate altitude or airspeed or both). 

 

As far as autopilots are concerned the aspen will connect to most and as I read in the thread it is mostly just a simple L/R output, which is correct, however when you get into GPSS or 3 axis systems it gets more complicated. The other thing to consider is if you have an AC or DC autopilot which can change cost due to a special "Box" with a couple transistors, caps, resistors, etc. in it.

 

the vectors and wind speeds should come up automatically on the aspen and there is 1 RS232 wire you need to hook to your GPS to give it air data as well.

 

We love the Aspens here for the simplicity of the install and the quality of the product but we like the G500/600 as well for the size, quality, and a few other reasons.

[Marauder]

Bill -- this is Chris, we spoke yesterday. Thanks for taking the suggestion about participating on the forums. There is a lot of misinformation out there and it is good that someone who works the technologies day in and day out can set us straight.

I hope your new management will allow you to continue to participate. I know the risk to them is that if you say something bad about a product or service, it could come back to bite them. We don't want that to happen, so I for one won't put you in that position.

I think most of us are looking for basic understanding of which way to go with the technology and for advise on some of the common problems we all encounter time to time.

Great to have you with us.

[Bill Dunn]

Chris, hopefully I can help without stepping on toes.

I look forward to hearing that story you were talking about yesterday!

[aviatoreb]

Erik and I met up when he was in town and we started talking about Aspen's vs steam/mechanical instruments.

 

When my HSI/Artificial Horizon/Altimeter/something breaks and needs an overhaul, I may very well upgrade to an Aspen and thus get GPSS for my A/P.  Overhaul of an HSI is $3500ish (ballpark) and GPSS install would be about $3000 (ballpark).  For $6500, you are well on your way to an Aspen unit.  However, then you have to redesign your panel as well as deal with the reliability of the Aspen units.

 

So - two questions on this poll.

 

1.  Are you considering adding an Aspen unit?  Yes?  Maybe?  scenarios?  No.

 

2.  Do you know of any Aspen failures?  Yours?  Friends? 

 

I have four local pilots who have Aspens and two of the four have failed.  One owner (who is an early adopter) has had multiple replacements under warranty.  Three of these four pilots are on MooneySpace.

 

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

 

-Seth

 

It was fun!

 

I have seen some comments here that match my own opinion and I will highlight one in a moment.

 

I will say - I dropped my airplane at the avionics shop yesterday for a TT31 transponder install, and the airplane the tech was just finishing was a very nice M20J which just received a brand spankin' new Aspen single pane 1000.  Very nice.  But not feeling it will make my airplane $14k nicer.   (Is that the rate for aspen with SVT these days?  I would never do an aspen without SVT since that is the coolest part).

[aviatoreb]

I hate to say it but an Aspen gives me no more capability then the steam gauges.

 

I can't fly any more approaches. It seems less reliable and it costs a lot of money.

 

What's the point of getting it?

 

They are cool looking, but that is a lot of money for cool...

 

This essentially mirrors my opinion.  I have been in my friends airplane with an Aspen it it seems super nice - but not like the airplane would now make me more confident to do what I am not already willing to do in my single engine airplane - meaning yes IFR but take it easy and try to avoid minimums.  Having flown steam gauge for my entire IFR flying days, I feel comfortable in the setup.

Also the same friend had an aspen failure.  And I know of two others who have had failures.  SO I definitely do not feel like investing i an Aspen is a matter of investing in a more robust interment since if it were that alone would be worth something to me.  I say it is worth to get it if it looks cool to you but not so much beyond that.

 

I will go one more, I really like the HSI - its like a fine swiss watch - its amazing what a mechanical device can do.

 

Also, Seth, I am disagreeing with your calculus that "you already laid down $6500 so you are halfway to an aspen anyway" in the position that when the HSI fails its a good time to get an aspen rather than overhaul.  a) I don't have gpss either, and I have flown in airplanes with gpss and it is very very cool, but I do not feel like it is a burden of a workload to fly my very capable KFC200 "by hand" meaning when I arrive at waypoints to turn the heading bug.  In fact I would be worried about tuning out and not paying attention if I just flew by GPSS.  Yes, I would use GPSS if I had it but I am not buying it specifically.  So $6500 is not part of my calculus.  Maybe $3500 which is the cost of the HSI overhaul.  That is only 1/4 of the way to an aspen....

 

AND - as more and more folks upgrade to an aspen, there are going to be more and more King 525A's on the market.

Such as this one on ebay that is $1900 to buy outright or $900 core exchange.  It claims to be overhauled and yellow tagged doesn't it?

 

So now we might be talking $900....and that is hardly most of the way or even part of the way to an aspen.  The aspen, which is a unit I am just not that enchanted by.

 

eBay item number:

201091119819

 

:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KI-525A-HSI-king-certified-ki-525a-900-00-exchange-/201091119819?pt=Motors_Aviation_Parts_Gear&hash=item2ed1f6facb&vxp=mtr

 

"KI 525A, HSI, king, certified,ki 525a, 900.00 exchange"

[Piloto]

Erik keep in mind that the price on the KI-525 does not include the KCS -55 heading gyro in the tail cone. Like you I love the HSI. My plane didn't have it so I decided for the Aera 560 HSI display which works better than any panel mounted HSI. The 560 compass card is driven by the GPS ground track which makes it much easier on crosswind approaches to be on the center line.

 

José    

[aviatoreb]

Erik keep in mind that the price on the KI-525 does not include the KCS -55 heading gyro in the tail cone. Like you I love the HSI. My plane didn't have it so I decided for the Aera 560 HSI display which works better than any panel mounted HSI. The 560 compass card is driven by the GPS ground track which makes it much easier on crosswind approaches to be on the center line.

 

José    

 

Doh!  I forgot about that - lucky so far...knock on wood....my HSI has not needed work by me and actually it was overhauled just 9 months previous to my purchase of N10933.  How much is it btw to overhaul a tired HSI then?

 

I also have a Garmin 510 - much like your 560.

 

500 hours and 3.5 years into this mooney I am still amazed at the utility of having any autopilot at all.  All my previous flying was an AP (which was one major reason in upgrading) hand flying a DA40 without an HSI either - just to VORs which is much harder.

 

I was just today reading the Diamond forum (I still sometimes lurk at my old airplane type forum) and noticed someone posted a "did this happen to anyone else" post about his 3rd Aspen replacement since it sometimes blinks out and goes blank on the ground or in flight.

[carusoam]

Is it possible...

Whoever is installing those Aspens has a history of installing faulty HSIs as well?

There are so many sensitive connections to make properly.

Best regards,

-a-

[Bill Dunn]

This is very true... Aspens in particular have very strict installation parameters.

[Piloto]

Erik

 

As per Century Instruments Overhaul Price list

 

KI-525A HSI indicator $1,395

KG-102A HDG Gyro     $1,295

Total                           $2,690

 

They did my Century 31 ADI gyro overhaul for $600. One week turn around. Good service.

After 30 years without a problem the old fashion steam gauge gyro won my confidence. It is good for another 30 years. 

 

www.centuryinstruments.net

 

Cheaper than a new Aspen+install

 

BTW the KG102A is electric not vacuum. 

 

José

[m20kmooney]

This is very true... Aspens in particular have very strict installation parameters.

Don't know what that means but it can't be good! How so? Why are they different than other glass panel displays?

[Bill Dunn]

It's the kind of wire and everything is double shielded.

[aviatoreb]

Erik

 

As per Century Instruments Overhaul Price list

 

KI-525A HSI indicator $1,395

KG-102A HDG Gyro     $1,295

Total                           $2,690

 

They did my Century 31 ADI gyro overhaul for $600. One week turn around. Good service.

After 30 years without a problem the old fashion steam gauge gyro won my confidence. It is good for another 30 years. 

 

www.centuryinstruments.net

 

Cheaper than a new Aspen+install

 

BTW the KG102A is electric not vacuum. 

 

José

 

Wow - that's not so bad.  Yes lots less expensive than a new aspen install.

 

I do have a second attitude indicator by the way - the mechanical electric gyro called life saver by mid continent.  I'm not inclined yet to rip it all out and replace with an aspen if an instrument fails for all the reasons I already said.

[dhc]

You need a new category in your poll:

Will install when they offer a built in autopilot, or the DFC90 /Aspen pair is certified for Mooney, so that I can dump my (insert Century, King here) without buying an outdated STec design for $15-20k

(While still on soapbox: or when FAA gets its head out of its rear and enacts limited Part 23 reform to let us install Dynon/Trutrak...)