Short field landing technique M20E

[ncdmtb]

I typically fly into larger airports with long paved runways and am never really concerned about "short field" landings. This weekend I am flying into a smaller airfield with a 1,500' paved runway.

For those of you who fly into shorter fields, what is your preferred "short field landing" technique. I will be flying in with 2 passengers and pretty heavy on the fuel, i.e. Pretty much close to max weight.

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[bdjohn4]

Thats really short for flying a max gross. If I had to land there, I'd be hanging the prop listening for the stall-warning. I also wouldn't fly in if high-density altitude. Not sure I'd want to take off again with two passengers and all that fuel. I am assuming it is a paved 1,500ft.

John

[clh]

Fly the POH speeds and you should have no problem..  If you are a little fast, just be ready to go around.  If you have not practiced it in a while, it would be good to just get a few practices in on the longer runway.

 

Take-off again, with an E 1500 ft would definitely be the short end of my tolerance especially heavy.  Don't think I would try with any other model.

[pinerunner]

Sounds like a challenge. Speed control will be the key. You can forward slip an M20E if you find you're a little high; the flaps don't slow you much. I'd demand ideal conditions before I'd try it and then practice stalls first with the same heavy load and shoot for 1.3 times the stall speed.  Also I'd practice at a bigger airport to see what the plane and I am really capable of at those loads.

 

Not all short fields are equally easy. Land formations can induce some weird air currents near the end of the runway. I've always hated "tabletop" airports that are on the flat top of a hill. Usually a downdraft  that you have to fight on short final and then it turns into a headwind once you're over the runway so you float.  If you slow down too much on final you'd stall and crash hard into the side of the hill. On the other hand a short strip in the middle of cornfields with ideal approachs and it could be a nonevent. 

 

What's this field like?  Maybe you could land nearby and ferry your passengers in one at a time.  I think I'd try this strange field (to me) out solo first loaded light and with slower approach speed (judged by the change in stall speed). Then I'd have a better idea what this place was going to throw at me. I don't have an AOA indicator but for this I think it would be very welcome.

 

The shortest I've been into was 2400' with one other passenger and half fuel in my 64 M20E. That wasn't a problem using about 70-75 MPH (older indicator) final approach speed. 

[jrwilson]

I would vote to find another airport with a longer runway. It sounds like you're not that familiar with short fields and 1500' is pretty short even for people who are used to short fields...

[N201MKTurbo]

That's going to be interesting.

 

Find a landmark on your home field, or put out a cone if it is an uncontrolled field. and Practice, Practice, Practice until it becomes easy.

 

Aim for a point about 100 feet short of the runway and flare over that point so the wheels touch at the beginning of the numbers. Do your approaches as slow as you feel comfortable. Maybe a little uncomfortable.

 

Check the end of the runway to see if it has a sharp lip just in case you land a little short.

 

Make sure your wheels are firmly on the ground before you stomp on the breaks (you know you will) so you don't flat spot your tires.

 

Are there any obstacles?

[Guest]

It can be done, I once flew into a 1600 foot strip with three on board and out with two. As others have said you have to be very comfortable at the bottom end of the performance envelope.

Clarence

[bdjohn4]

I see you are in Germany. This sounds a lot like Operation Eiche, when Mussolini was rescued by that Storch STOL that landed on top of that tiny mountain pasture. A Mooney would NOT be the best aircraft for that type of mission!

[urbanti]

I can get an E down in much less than 2,000 feet, so long as the runway is at least 3,000 feet long

Psychologicallly, I would want to practice more before I tried to do it in a real-life short field.

Tim

[Seanhoya]

Personally, I don't land at fields less than 2000 feet... So let me start by saying that I don't recommend that you do what you are planning to do. That being said, there are a few things that you can do to stack the odds in your favor. Shoot for the dirt before the prepared surface. Start your flare over the dirt to touch down right at the beginning of the prepared surface. Check the stall speed of your aircraft similarly loaded. Multiply times 1.3. You will probably come up with a final approach speed of 70-72 MPH. MAINTAIN THIS SPEED! if you come in hot, go around. Determine a point on the grass that you will go around at if you haven't touched down yet, and go around! Make sure to dump flaps immediately upon touchdown for maximum breaking. Make sure your breaks are good.

If you haven't gathered this already... What you are trying to do is a serious undertaking. Again, I recommend that you follow the good advice above and come up with an alternative plan. Sorry to be a kill-joy, but Mooneys like to float and aren't known for great short field performance. Trying to eak-out short field performance takes practice. Best not to do this with passengers. Also, if you follow the POH, you are going to come in hot (too fast) and will likely run of the end of a 1500 for strip.  Of course, it is possible based on the numbers, but i wouldn't tempt fate...

Good luck, and let us know what you decide!

Sean 

[takair]

I routinely turn off at the 1000ft turn off with just me. That said, I occasionally miss it, especially if there is a cross wind. I have set a personal limit of 2000ft and even then you need to be very aware of your surroundings. Obstacles, runway slope, runway condition, and wind become critical when stopping short. One consideration is ability to go around. If you have an open approach and an open departure it would not be so bad, trees on the ends, at gross.....forget it. I agree with the others, try it on a long runway first and then try it alone first. Even then conditions can change, don't put yourself in a position from which you can not escape. Sounds like this trip is more appropriate for a C185 or a Maule.....

[carusoam]

Landing is one thing. Which you have gotten good advice for.

Take off is also important.... Check your distances to clear 50' with the field altitude and temperatures.

I would be hesitant to take other people into a situation that I wasn't fully practiced with.

Friends and family will not like you as you approach take off speeds with the end of the runway quickly approaching...

There is an app that can help you with actual take off and landing distances if you want to get some practice in before the event.

Be thoughtful,

-a-

[Bob_Belville]

Unless the DA is pretty high the difficulty should be limited to the landing. And that is dependent upon the pilot more than the machine. If Dr.Bill chimes in he is based at a 2800' field with tall trees at both ends. He probable knows if he can easily get his E in and stopped in 1500'. I suspect he can.

 

Book take off roll @ gross @ 5000' & 80F in an E is 1330' (2270' over 50' obstacle)

But at 2200# @ SL & 59F take off roll is only 675'.

Any headwind will of course improve these numbers.  

Gotta love Es!

[N601RX]

All last summer part of our runway was closed and we only had 2000 ft. I practiced some the weekend before it was blocked off and never used more than 1000 ft while it was closed. We also went to a grass strip that was only 1800 and was open on both ends and didn't have any problems.

The one thing I did do is have several predetermined land/go around points and criteria for each picked out. On the takeoff, do not rush it by pulling up early before it's ready to fly. If you do the plane will get airborne with a nose high altitude and will not climb.

[Hank]

I used to go to a 2000' grass strip obstructed at one end. My personal limits were 2 people and half tanks. Preferred landing direction was toward the obstructed end, not over it; preferred departure was down river, over the clear end. Would never try it near gross. I've been to a 2400' paved strip, 2 people and almost full tanks, with no problem on a Flight Review; but I learned and was based at a 3000' field with trees at both ends.

Be careful. Practice first solo, then with a rated passenger, then with passenger and full tanks. Be aware that the approach will look much different than at the longer field where you practice.

Good luck, be careful and report back! (Then we can all stop worrying about whether you make it in and back out . . . . )

If needed, you can retract flaps if you're floating 2-3' agl, and she will sit right down. Don't do this more than 3 feet / 1 meter above ground.

[Bartman]

When I bought my J model my instructor had me land on an 1800 foot strip before he considered me proficient for solo. Two onboard and about 20 gal fuel. Did a go around first try and landed on second attempt no problem. Winds were calm and we used 1.2 Vso targeting about 200 ft before the threshold for the flare. The plane was stable on approach but no obstacles on either end. It wasn't too difficult, but with an obstacle I would not attempt.

[piperpainter]

You got this! 

[Lood]

I don't have experience in an E, but at sea level, my F handles 1500 with ease. Like already mentioned, a lot of factors will have an effect on the overall performance. Two things that I've found are extremely important is your speed over the fence, or just before touch down, as well as your actual point of touch down.

Depending on the weight I'm carrying, I slow down to 70mph just before flaring and it is of utmost importance that you put the airplane down right on the threshold. If you land even slightly deep, the situation might become rather intimidating. I also retract the flaps as soon as the mainwheels are firmly settled.

Getting out of 1500' might actually be way more risky than getting in.

[chrisk]

I'm sure 1500 feet is possible for both take off and landing, given low temperatures, a head wind, below gross, and good pilot technique.  The problem is there is little margin if any of these factors degrade.  Personally, I would not do this.  --Of course, I'm thinking about the 100 degree day we had yesterday.

[orionflt]

I own a C model and have taken off and landed on 1500 ft runways with almost full fuel and a passenger. when landing, set your touchdown point for the end of the runway, if you find you are floating go around and try again. as said previously take off is going to be your critical challenge. because you are going to be heavy your take off roll is going to be longer and your rate of climb decreased so even before you fly in there you need to calculate your performance. I will tell you that in that configuration you have no safety margin if your engine fails at rotate, so know what is at the end of the runway. the field i used for my short field training was a golf port with 1500 ft paved but another 1500 ft of turf beyond that, it was also open with no obstacles to avoid if I had any problems. when you start throwing in obstacles and high elevations or density altitudes things can get tricky fast.

 

Brian   

[Bob_Belville]

I own a C model and have taken off and landed on 1500 ft runways with almost full fuel and a passenger. when landing, set your touchdown point for the end of the runway, if you find you are floating go around and try again. as said previously take off is going to be your critical challenge. because you are going to be heavy your take off roll is going to be longer and your rate of climb decreased so even before you fly in there you need to calculate your performance. I will tell you that in that configuration you have no safety margin if your engine fails at rotate, so know what is at the end of the runway. the field i used for my short field training was a golf port with 1500 ft paved but another 1500 ft of turf beyond that, it was also open with no obstacles to avoid if I had any problems. when you start throwing in obstacles and high elevations or density altitudes things can get tricky fast.

 

Brian   

His E is going to really shine on take off compared to your C.

[Hank]

How much shine will the planned 3rd person take away, Bob? At gross, 1500 feet is pretty short.

[Mooneymite]

Looking at the Mooney chart in my C's POH, it looks like the critical items are, Density altitude and Obstructions (Duh!):

 

At sea level, 2575 gross weight, the landing roll is only 595'.....HOWEVER, with a 50' TCH, the total landing distance jumps to1550!

At 7500' DA, 2575 gross weight, the landing roll is 750'.  With that 50' TCH, the total jumps to 1795'.

 

So, if the 1500' runway allows you to touch down, on speed on "the first brick", getting stopped shouldn't be a problem.  If you're crossing power lines, or trees it's a totally different situation.

 

The takeoff numbers offer remarkably similar performance.

 

NB:  The takeoff numbers are for wing flaps at the TAKEOFF position....anything else and you are a test pilot.

[Bob_Belville]

How much shine will the planned 3rd person take away, Bob? At gross, 1500 feet is pretty short.

Sure.

 

And an engine failure on take off can be dicey on a mile long runway. But an E, at gross, and he will be under gross, won't need 1500' ground roll unless DA is well over 5000'.

ground roll for an E is between 495' (sea level, 20F, @2200#) and 1330' ( 5000', 80F @2575#). 

[carusoam]

Here's the shine...

Comparing Bob's numbers to the C POH and same conditions....

Cold at SL...

E's shortest distance 495'

C's shortest distance 660

Warm at 5k'

E 1330'

C 1910'

These performance numbers require the plane to be proven to operate to all book values...

In the world of aviation, the phrase "know before you go" would apply here.

It is not reckless to give this advice. It may be reckless to use this advice....

What safety factor do you apply to your book numbers?

It is easy to chew through 50% extra distances by making simple mistakes or not having optimum piloting technique.

I know people that have landed longer than expected. There are skid marks at the end of many longer runways.

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/9458-patricks-accident-report/?hl=%2Bpatrick+%2Baccident

So the recommendations seem to be...

-know your plane's performance numbers, compared to book.

-Know the runway, alt and T on the day you are flying.

-know your experience, measured in safety factor.

-If you don't know your safety factor, you need to figure it out first...

-It is very difficult to land at the beginning of a runway...

-it could be expensive to land any earlier...

-laws of physics are the same on all continents...

Other things I got out of this thread?

Go arounds are free. Use them early and often. Have a plan B.

The risk level has increased so don't take anyone that you like?

-a-