ADS-B is coming-What are you doing about it?

[cliffy]

Forgot to add- 

I'm willing to bet that TSA/Customs/Border Protection are pushing hard on this because once installed, there is no way to go incognito on any flight. Blocked N numbers are not allowed, period even on 1200. Now if you stay lower than 10,000 and never go to ABC airspace you don't need any of this stuff.  

[Rhumbline]

I've made the assertion before and reiterate it again; if you're worried about parts availability, the used market will probably be very favorable in the years following 2020. 

[aaronk25]

And forgot to add and now that they know where everyone is going and when they fly it will be very easy to send a bill "user fee" for flying! I hope pilots as a whole are smarter enough to recognize that free weather and traffic isn't really "free". We will pay the price just like other people in the US who thought and still think we can get something for nothing. I can here it now "how do we make it so we can track the vfr GA planes? Oh let's do a bait and switch....you see we will give them weather and traffic and they will be so happy they won't even notice what they really gave up....and then we will charge them".... Ok off soap box now. I think there are black helicopters over my house now... Never mind that's the medical Mayo One chopper....

[VetRepp]

I plan on waiting a couple more years - and naively hope Garmin will do right by its customers (I'm being delusional I know) 

On a related subject -

1) Does any one know if the GDL-88 will interface with the G1000?

2) Does anyone know what is involved in the upgrade of the GTX 33 to a GTX33 ES - Is it a software or hardware upgrade?

 

{I asked Garmin those questions and they seemingly didn't even look at the question before passing the buck saying it is up to OEM when upgrades are done (OK I get that but they could at least answer the questions)

I like the Garmin product, but not their greed or terrible customer service,  OK rant over - I guess you can tell I'm one of the forgotten G1000 owners.}

[cnoe]

On a related subject -

1) Does any one know if the GDL-88 will interface with the G1000?

2) Does anyone know what is involved in the upgrade of the GTX 33 to a GTX33 ES - Is it a software or hardware upgrade?

I can't answer your first question but I'm 99% sure the GTX-to-ES upgrade involves hardware as well as software. That statement was made early on by a Garmin engineer.

For $1,200 + installation & programming my GTX330 now sends out ADS-B 1090 w/ position data from my GNS530-W. With a Stratus 2 unit and an iPad the weather and traffic are as close to complete as possible.

I realize that the XM weather is likely a better product but in 12 months time I saved enough (subscription cost) to pay for the GTX upgrade.

Note that the setup is a bit tricky as many avionics shops aren't up to speed on all the details yet. Many (most) of the GA ADS-B Out setups are still not compliant and it takes an ATC report to confirm everything's working properly. Firmwares need to be current and the settings must be correct.

If you've already got a WAAS GPS you're halfway there.

Hopefully somebody like Appareo will get a portable solution certified soon for those of you starting off with older panels.

[cliffy]

BTW, if you have a WAAS GPS and you enter a flight plan into it for your trip the entire flight plan is transmitted to ATC and anyone else who knows how to access public data from ATC. 

 

cnoe is correct in that the setup of an ADS Out system is complicated and not every shop really knows how to do it. A flyoff with an ATC report will be regular business on a lot of setups.

[Marauder]

Forgot to add-

I'm willing to bet that TSA/Customs/Border Protection are pushing hard on this because once installed, there is no way to go incognito on any flight. Blocked N numbers are not allowed, period even on 1200. Now if you stay lower than 10,000 and never go to ABC airspace you don't need any of this stuff.

Cliffy -- are you sure about the blocked N numbers? As an example, my understanding is that if you have a GDL-88 with a mode C transponder, your N number is not reported out. It is only reported if you have mode S transponder. The UAT band does not report out your N number.

[Marauder]

BTW, if you have a WAAS GPS and you enter a flight plan into it for your trip the entire flight plan is transmitted to ATC and anyone else who knows how to access public data from ATC.

cnoe is correct in that the setup of an ADS Out system is complicated and not every shop really knows how to do it. A flyoff with an ATC report will be regular business on a lot of setups.

Today's WAAS GPS does not transmit out anything to ATC. I'm not sure where you got that from. If you file an IFR or VFR flight plan and in some cases when you obtain flight following, that information can be obtained by services like FlightAware. You can block your information from becoming available by sending a request to the FAA. The FAA still collects the information by it can be blocked from public access.

Use this link to obtain the information needed to block it: http://www.nbaa.org/ops/security/asdi/

[cliffy]

I guess I should have added "after 1/1/2020 with ADS-B" to my posting about the flight plan and N number blocking.

 

My information came from the FAA seminar and reading the AC governing ADS-B out. I will look it up tomorrow and cut and paste. After 1/1/2020 it all gets transmitted as the rules change to comply with international standards of ICAO.

 

The WAAS GPS today does not send out that info but when combined with a UAT or ES xponder the new rules make it happen. 

 

After 2020 no blocking will be allowed under ADS-B and the data base at FAA is public info available to anyone who knows how to suck it in. This was a big discussion at the seminar that the FAA had no comment on. They're not talking about it!

[ArtVandelay]

And forgot to add and now that they know where everyone is going and when they fly it will be very easy to send a bill "user fee" for the medical Mayo One chopper....

If the Feds want user fees, they already have everything they need in their database, your address! They can add a user fee to the medical certificate process, they don't need ADSB.

They just want to make sure you don't collide with one of their surveillance drones....relax, they are here to help.

[ArtVandelay]

I guess I should have added "after 1/1/2020 with ADS-B" to my posting about the flight plan and N number blocking.

My information came from the FAA seminar and reading the AC governing ADS-B out. I will look it up tomorrow and cut and paste. After 1/1/2020 it all gets transmitted as the rules change to comply with international standards of ICAO.

The WAAS GPS today does not send out that info but when combined with a UAT or ES xponder the new rules make it happen.

After 2020 no blocking will be allowed under ADS-B and the data base at FAA is public info available to anyone who knows how to suck it in. This was a big discussion at the seminar that the FAA had no comment on. They're not talking about it!

GPS WAAS doesn't transmit anything. Yes, you reg no. will part of the info in the reply data from the transponder, if you are running drugs or just paranoid, you have options.

1. Pull the CB for the transponder. Stay out of controlled air spaces.

2. Reprogram the transponder with somebody else's tail number. Helps to have a paint scheme that makes it hard to read your number.

[1964-M20E]

The KT-74 is listed as $2649.00 at AircraftSpruce.  As far as I can tell, the KT-74 and the APX340 are roughly equivalent, what "street prices" are you seeing for the APX340?

 

Any advantages of one over the other?

No differences that I know of. I believe the Trig TT31 is the same unit as the Avidyne only different case but this is not verified information.  Avidyne is going to give me $500 off since I already bought the IFD440 still a little more than the KT-74.  I think I’m going to ask them to give me about $900 to $1,000 off to get closer to or match the King price .

 

I really wish Avidyne or someone else had a remote mounted XPNDR that could be controlled from the 540 or the 440 then I’d be getting the 540 instead of the 440 due to panel space limits.

[Mooney_Allegro]

My GTX-330 transponder was sent to Garmin & is now a GTX-330ES, for $1200. It's GPS data comes from either the GTN-650 or 750. I already have traffic through the Skywatch & use XM for weather data. Sarasota Avionics is predicting that Garmin will raise the price soon for the upgrade to "ES". I wouldn't doubt it as we get closer to the 2020 date. I chose to get it done early to get it out of the way & avoid the "rush" as is being predicted as we get closer.

[thinwing]

Kt 74/garmin 430w for position reporting is above 18 k out solution...garmin gdl -39 with ext antenna is in solution ,traffic on a 696 in a panel mount...all in all not to expensive,but I already had the 430 w and 696 installed...so with trade in of bk 76c about 2800 for every thing...

[Mooneymite]

I took my Hatrz for its transponder check today and discussed my Mooney ADS-B with the technician.

 

He agreed that for me, the KT-76 hooked up to my 430W would be all I needed:  Just under $3000 all set to go.

 

However, he pointed out that "value-wise", I'm getting a lot more bang-for-my-buck with a GDL-88 installation:  right at $5000.

 

If I do the KT-74, I really only have half the solution at 3/5 the cost.  Traffic/weather, etc. all displayed on my 430 and he assured me the GDL-88 would be "forward compatible" if I ever upgraded my panel.

 

Ah..,,,back to analysis paralysis.

[Sabremech]

Did some more research on this subject today and I'm now on the fence about doing it at all. I'm not too concerned about Class A,B or C airspace and flying above 10000 feet, so will now wait and see if any more players jump in and affect the pricing of this equipment.

Cost benefit just isn't there for me after more research. Anyone else feel the same?

David

[N601RX]

Here are 2 other considerations when going with the gdl 88.

Your keeping your transponder, so over a period of time your going to spend more money either replacing or repairing your existing transponder. Your basically maintaining 2 seperate devices now. With the Extended Squitter option you only have to maintain 1 piece of equipment.

Also because you have to keep the transponder, you loose the resale value of it. This could be anywhere from $600 up to around $1300 depending on what you have.

[Ovation3]

I'm thinking ads-b is the beginning of the end for general aviation as we know it. I suspect user fees will be derived from the information ads-b provides to the Feds. AOPA heads up.

[Mooneymite]

Here are 2 other considerations when going with the gdl 88.

Your keeping your transponder, so over a period of time your going to spend more money either replacing or repairing your existing transponder. Your basically maintaining 2 seperate devices now. With the Extended Squitter option you only have to maintain 1 piece of equipment.

Also because you have to keep the transponder, you loose the resale value of it. This could be anywhere from $600 up to around $1300 depending on what you have.

 

All true.

 

I think.

[cliffy]

How are you able to be rid of the transponder? One has to stay in the airplane and be integrated with the UAT (GL88) or replace an C mode transponder with a 1090ES one. 

 

Option 1- standard C mode xponder needs a UAT (for "out" info) and a WAAS engine of some type (stand alone or WAAS GPS panel mount nav unit) for position info at the very least to comply. NOT good above 17,999'

Option 2- standard C mode transponder with a WAAS GPS nav system in panel needs at min a UAT for "out". info to comply. Again not above 17.999'

Option 3 Remove C mode xponder and install 1090ES one (still need a WAAS engine somewhere, either from panel mounted GPS nav or stand alone) for "out" compliance even above 18,000'. ES has TIS-B in for traffic display but NOT FIS (weather info in). You would need a separate UAT to get weather in for display. 

All weather "in" has to come from a UAT as it is broadcast on 978 Mhz and only UATs operate at that frequency. 

That's the way I read it with 2 days study so far.

 

Here is a very good 30 min program on how and why ADS-B works      

 

http://adsbuniversity.com/ads-b-university

[Marauder]

That is how I understand it as well. If you elect to use a mode S transponder, you will get full TIS-B on a portable decide instead of the air to air stuff you get without the "out".

Having a full UAT "in" solution is valuable only if you have something to display it on. If you have a 430 or 650 (like I have), the small screen isn't the most desirable to get weather and traffic on.

[ArtVandelay]

Having a full UAT "in" solution is valuable only if you have something to display it on. If you have a 430 or 650 (like I have), the small screen isn't the most desirable to get weather and traffic on.

This is where Flightstream 110/210 comes in, it can display weather and traffic on your iPad.

[N601RX]

How are you able to be rid of the transponder? One has to stay in the airplane and be integrated with the UAT (GL88) or replace an C mode transponder with a 1090ES one. 

 

Option 1- standard C mode xponder needs a UAT (for "out" info) and a WAAS engine of some type (stand alone or WAAS GPS panel mount nav unit) for position info at the very least to comply. NOT good above 17,999'

Option 2- standard C mode transponder with a WAAS GPS nav system in panel needs at min a UAT for "out". info to comply. Again not above 17.999'

Option 3 Remove C mode xponder and install 1090ES one (still need a WAAS engine somewhere, either from panel mounted GPS nav or stand alone) for "out" compliance even above 18,000'. ES has TIS-B in for traffic display but NOT FIS (weather info in). You would need a separate UAT to get weather in for display. 

All weather "in" has to come from a UAT as it is broadcast on 978 Mhz and only UATs operate at that frequency. 

That's the way I read it with 2 days study so far.

 

Here is a very good 30 min program on how and why ADS-B works      

 

http://adsbuniversity.com/ads-b-university

That is the point I was making.  If you go with the ES you can sell the old transponder and replace it with a new ES transponder.  If you go with the 88 you have to keep and maintain the old transponder in addition to the 88. It seems to me that if you consider the money you can sell your current transponder for and the addition cost of having to maintain a transponder and gdl88 the ES option will be cheaper in the long run. As for as ADSB-In I'm very happy with my Stratus 2 and Ipad. The traffic is routed to my headset through bluetooth.

[aviatoreb]

That is the point I was making.  If you go with the ES you can sell the old transponder and replace it with a new ES transponder.  If you go with the 88 you have to keep and maintain the old transponder in addition to the 88. It seems to me that if you consider the money you can sell your current transponder for and the addition cost of having to maintain a transponder and gdl88 the ES option will be cheaper in the long run. As for as ADSB-In I'm very happy with my Stratus 2 and Ipad. The traffic is routed to my headset through bluetooth.

 

I am very close to pulling the trigger on some kind of solution.  Last week, literally the day I was going to agree to a quote to install a GTX330ES install, the Trig TT31 was fully certified.  Now that is my current install leader, but I am preferring the KT74 which hopefully will be certified very soon since it is supposedly "just like" the TT31.  I like the KT74 since I prefer the way you enter squak codes with buttons rather than twist and press.    Plus it looks nicer and is slightly less expensive.

 

Where would one sell a working KT76A?

 

I have the GDL393d + iPad + Bose A20.  How do I get the warnings (traffic) to audible in my headset by bluetooth?  That would be great.

[ArtVandelay]

That is the point I was making.  If you go with the ES you can sell the old transponder and replace it with a new ES transponder.  If you go with the 88 you have to keep and maintain the old transponder in addition to the 88. It seems to me that if you consider the money you can sell your current transponder for and the addition cost of having to maintain a transponder

I think the cost to maintain a transponder is minimal, I don't think they have a high failure rate.

What a you going to sell your old transponder for?  Its not ADSB compliant, there will be (if not already) a ton of transponders on the market. I have my old 76A transponder (green tagged) in a box, since I went with the KT74 I was going to keep it as an emergency spare.