AOA installation

[rq3]

Greetings Everyone;

All outstanding orders for CYA-100 angle of attack indicators shipped today.

Rebate checks are included in the box.

 

Many Thanks!

Rip

[Lionudakis]

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We shouldn't confuse a "make believe" AOA gadget with a true AOA system in a fighter jet landing on an aircraft carrier or a transport jet. The aerodynamics are very different than ours and they have TRUE AOA systems.

 

 

Make believe? Now I am confused. How is the CYA any different from the airliners? AOA all work on the same pricipal, and technology (fairly simple too), a balance vane is suspended in the airflow and is attached to a sending unit of some form, the difference between relative airflow and the airplane structure/wing  is AOA, all this high tech info is send to a display of some sort.  I've removed and replaced a few (hundred), and they looked pretty similar in design,  and do exactly the same thing (minus stick pushers and shakers)

 

Mine is ordered and shipped ! And have several folks, with mooneys and others brands, interested around me. 

[M016576]

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Make believe? Now I am confused. How is the CYA any different from the airliners? AOA all work on the same pricipal, and technology (fairly simple too), a balance vane is suspended in the airflow and is attached to a sending unit of some form, the difference between relative airflow and the airplane structure/wing is AOA, all this high tech info is send to a display of some sort. I've removed and replaced a few (hundred), and they looked pretty similar in design, and do exactly the same thing (minus stick pushers and shakers)

Mine is ordered and shipped ! And have several folks, with mooneys and others brands, interested around me.

PTK is incorrect in the above statement: I'm too lazy to go back through 13 pages of this, but what he's thinking... Probably... Is most likely due to watching a video on the F-18. I flew them for 10 years, so maybe I can help correct the issue.

The only jets that use true AOA are jets with a digital fly by wire flight control system. Period.

Aircraft that do not have a digital fly by wire flight control system use graduated "units" of AOA, which is exactly what both the alpha systems AOA display does, and what the CYA system does.

You can't use true AOA in a jet or prop plane without flight control computers: the control inputs would not linearly correlate to changes in the AOA: it would be too difficult to control. That's why mechanical flight control jets (and prop aircraft) use units of AOA

Here's a short list of jets and prop planes I've flown that use units of AOA:

T-34C, T-2C, T-45C, F-15C

These planes I've sat in the copilot seat (or back of) on rides also use units of AOA, not true AOA: E-2C, S-3, EA-6B, F-14

In fact, the ONLY jets I know of in the military that use true AOA are the F-18, F-16 and F-22. I don't know about the heavies, but I bet they use units, except maybe the C-17 and B-1... But Dave Marten will have to fill us in on the B-ONE.

Again, PTK, an AOA indicator is a good, healthy and safe way to fly an airplane. There is no trick going on here. It's the same setup... In fact, the AOA indicators I've seen for GA appear to be better than the ones I've flown on military jets: solid state probe for one, magnetically registered for the other, very nice. Plus voice alerts. Huge safety increase and an easier way to fly IMHO.

[m20kmooney]

I can't believe this thread I still going!

The fact of the matter is that unless one flies aerobatics an aoa is just not needed. Plain and simple.

The reason is that in the envelope a ga pilot flies (30 degrees bank or so at most and +/- 10 degrees pitch) airspeed info is most important.

The PTS requires a pitch attitude of Vy +10/-5 in a normal takeoff and climb and Vx +10/-5 in short field. Also in an approach no more than 1.3 Vso +10/-5 knots.

Learn to control your airspeed!!

[Hank]

The problem is that Vso is based on weight and bank angle. When the sh1t hits the fan and you need to make a field, when you're sweating bullets and highly stressed, do you have unused brain power to approximate your weight, after deducting for fuel burned, and figure your approach speed? Your published Vso is at gross, a place I almost never fly, and I fly final at 85 mph, slowing to 80 - (5mph for every 300 lbs below gross), typically 75, sometimes 70. But banking to 30 degrees raises Vso a little, banking to 45 raises it a lot; maintaining a descent will make the increase smaller, but by how much? I have no idea, and I am not stressed at all right now, but it KNOW this is not in my Owners Manual.

Thus the usefulness of an AOA. Is it "worth it" to install and practice for a "what if" situation? Isn't that why we practice stalls, flight at MCA, partial panel, etc?

I'm confused at the resistance shown by many people.

[m20kmooney]

From the PTS:

"1. Exhibits satisfactory knowledge of the elements related to performance and limitations by explaining the use of charts, tables, and data to determine performance and the adverse effects of exceeding limitations.

2. Computes weight and balance. Determines the computed weight and center of gravity are within the airplane’s operating limitations and if the weight and center of gravity will remain within limits during all phases of flight.

3. Demonstrates use of the appropriate manufacturer’s performance charts, tables, and data."

This is part of proper and thorough flight planning. Without it you will not know.

[wishboneash]

From the PTS:

"1. Exhibits satisfactory knowledge of the elements related to performance and limitations by explaining the use of charts, tables, and data to determine performance and the adverse effects of exceeding limitations.

2. Computes weight and balance. Determines the computed weight and center of gravity are within the airplane’s operating limitations and if the weight and center of gravity will remain within limits during all phases of flight.

3. Demonstrates use of the appropriate manufacturer’s performance charts, tables, and data."

This is part of proper and thorough flight planning. Without it you will not know.

 

All well and good. One is also not supposed to run out of fuel, land gear up or the countless other stupid, dumb things intelligent, smart pilots tend to do. I am approaching this issue in a cautious manner since I have been flying for 20+ years without this instrument and have done just fine. Having this instrument will provide additional non-redundant information at a very low cost and tell me visually/confirm what I already know (but with better accuracy and little need for interpolation during a high workload situation).

[Hank]

Thanks, Sriram, you very succinctly made the point I tried to.

Maybe M20kmooney will explain how he calculates Vso for every landing during preflight planning, as all I have to go by is the single gross weight stall speed in the book. There is a table including several bank angles and varying configurations, but it's at gross weight, too. That will keep me alive, given a long enough field, but emergencies don't always happen conveniently close to 5000' fields, nor am I even based at one. More information is good. Practice is good. Practice with more information is better.

[DaV8or]

I can't believe this thread I still going!

The fact of the matter is that unless one flies aerobatics an aoa is just not needed. Plain and simple.

 

You know what? GPS isn't needed, radios aren't needed, engine monitors aren't needed, EFBs aren't needed, auto pilots aren't needed and even headsets aren't needed. However, I'll just admit right now that I'm a lazy, weak, below average skill GA pilot and the use of these things helps me get up into the air, get to where I want to go and safely get me down again. They make flying easy, fun and accessible to a dolt like me. If the AOA indicator helps me do really accurate short field landings in all weight conditions and I don't have to do math and add a few extra knots for Mama and the kids, then sign my slacker, marginal ass up! I'll put it right next to all my other unnecessary devices and I'll go on having a good time in spite of myself and perhaps Mama and the kids will even survive my ineptitude.

 

Tech really helps below average pilot boobs like me. I suspect that the military and the airlines also have their share of half assed, slack jawed lever pulling blockheads like me too and they want to protect their expensive equipment, so if AoA is good enough for United Airlines and Uncle Sam, I figure it's good enough for me too.

 

My advise to all the nit-wit, ham fisted, baboon plane drivers out there- Get one of these AoA indicators, learn how to use it, and nobody will ever suspect how poorly trained and crappy you really are. That's my plan anyways.

[DaV8or]

I got my Alpha Systems AOA calibrated. I have not flown with it enough to give a good pirep yet, but did learn enough to give some help to others installing the Alpha System. It is probably not of enough interest to use up everyone's time, but if anyone plans on installing the Alpha, contact me.

 

Actually, I would love to hear the dirt on how the Alpha goes in. It's the one I'm most interested in at this point. I'm sure I'm not the only one either. If you don't want to clog up this thread, make a new thread and I guarantee there will be people reading it.

[DonMuncy]

OK

[gsxrpilot]

You know what? GPS isn't needed, radios aren't needed, engine monitors aren't needed, EFBs aren't needed, auto pilots aren't needed and even headsets aren't needed. However, I'll just admit right now that I'm a lazy, weak, below average skill GA pilot and the use of these things helps me get up into the air, get to where I want to go and safely get me down again. They make flying easy, fun and accessible to a dolt like me. If the AOA indicator helps me do really accurate short field landings in all weight conditions and I don't have to do math and add a few extra knots for Mama and the kids, then sign my slacker, marginal ass up! I'll put it right next to all my other unnecessary devices and I'll go on having a good time in spite of myself and perhaps Mama and the kids will even survive my ineptitude.

 

Tech really helps below average pilot boobs like me. I suspect that the military and the airlines also have their share of half assed, slack jawed lever pulling blockheads like me too and they want to protect their expensive equipment, so if AoA is good enough for United Airlines and Uncle Sam, I figure it's good enough for me too.

 

My advise to all the nit-wit, ham fisted, baboon plane drivers out there- Get one of these AoA indicators, learn how to use it, and nobody will ever suspect how poorly trained and crappy you really are. That's my plan anyways.

 

I am really enjoying this thread and this site in it's entirety.  But this is the best post of now 14 pages.  In fact I was thinking prior to reading this post that those who are constantly referring us to the PTS can't be enjoying the flying nearly as much as the rest of us do.  

 

Thanks for the laugh and I'll likely order an AoA as soon as I have a Mooney to put it in.

 

Cheers,

Paul

[Chimpanzee]

Hi Rip,

just wondered, what is your lead time for delivery right now. My bird is going into annual next week.

Cheers
norbert

[RocketAviator]

Hi Rip,

just wondered, what is your lead time for delivery right now. My bird is going into annual next week.

Cheers

norbert

Norbert

I have one of RIP AOA new in box I purchased in the Mooney group, I already have the Alpha so if you need a unit quick i would be willing to see if we could work something out.. pM me if I can help.

[rq3]

Hi Rip,

just wondered, what is your lead time for delivery right now. My bird is going into annual next week.

Cheers

norbert

I have one unit left in stock.

 

Regards,

Rip

[John Pleisse]

Only 5 of the 10 committed have actually placed their orders so far.  Please don't leave the 5 out in the cold with the group purchase thing.  FYI, the Huskey group has also purchased 2.

 

I am out and have no interest. Prediction. 10 years from now, AoA's will be in more than 60% of the GA fleet. And of that 60%, the stall spin fatal rate will be unchanged from today (hoping I am wrong). It's great that such a device is available for small planes, hats to the FAA for fast tracking it to GA, but at the end of the day, I'd invest my $2,200 on training and proficiency.

[David Mazer]

I am out and have no interest. Prediction. 10 years from now, AoA's will be in more than 60% of the GA fleet. And of that 60%, the stall spin fatal rate will be unchanged from today (hoping I am wrong). It's great that such a device is available for small planes, hats to the FAA for fast tracking it to GA, but at the end of the day, I'd invest my $2,200 on training and proficiency.

First of all, Rip's excellent units don't cost $2,000 after installation.  They are much less.  However, I truly hope you are wrong.  The accident rate in GA aircraft continues with no significant improvement over the last several years and it would be nice if we could find ways to make progress on something so important.  We, to be read as the FAA, continue to spend time and resources on efforts that have already proven useless and efforts with newer options that haven't already failed is worth the effort IMO.

[John Pleisse]

I'll be watching you guys...... new production a/c, too.

[Marauder]

First of all, Rip's excellent units don't cost $2,000 after installation. They are much less. However, I truly hope you are wrong. The accident rate in GA aircraft continues with no significant improvement over the last several years and it would be nice if we could find ways to make progress on something so important. We, to be read as the FAA, continue to spend time and resources on efforts that have already proven useless and efforts with newer options that haven't already failed is worth the effort IMO.

Unfortunately I think a good portion of general aviation's safety record are the result of the knuckleheads behind the yoke. How many times do you read an accident report and say "what were they thinking?". The problem was they probably weren't. You can't regulate stupidity or indifference to risk.

I think back to the Monday-morning quarterbacking we did on Patrick's accident. The reality is that an AoA indicator would have probably only confirmed his poor decision making and would not have prevented what happened.

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[Cruiser]

yep, absolutely. You can hold that AoA solidly in the green right into the ground................

[rq3]

yep, absolutely. You can hold that AoA solidly in the green right into the ground................

That's very true, Cruiser. It's called CFIT (Controlled Flight Into Terrain). What we AoA manufacturers are trying to address is the UFIT (Uncontrolled Flight Into Terrain). It kills far too many good people. We think that KNOWING how far from stall you are, under all conditions, is better information than just knowing you are stalling, or on the hairy edge of doing so, under straight and level conditions.

 

Rip

[BobAustin]

MY Mooney is in the shop for avionics work and install of the CYA-100.

 

Not installed yet but the experienced guys at the shop were amazed at how simple the unit will be to install...no running pneumatic lines and no third box to locate.

 

Will give a pirep when all is done. 

[Lionudakis]

Installed my probe on the wing, doing panel work right now, with the indicator in the middle of the panel. The CYA-100 is a very simple design. Just have to run the included phone cable through the wing. Can't wait to fly and try it out

[Ragsf15e]

I'm a little late to the party on this topic, but would like to add my 2 cents... I previously flew F-15Es and we could easily have a weight change of 35,000lbs  (80,000lb max gross weight aircraft) between takeoff and landing (combination of fuel burned and ordinance dropped).  In the pattern, we flew only AOA, nothing else.  This made sense because the critical AOA of the wing never changed, but the stall speed (level, unaccelerated flight) changed dramatically. 

 

Now I'm flying the T-6 Texan II and teaching young Air Force pilots to fly.  We (only) have 1,000 pounds of gas compared to a ~6,000lb airplane.  The speed (level, unaccelerated flight) for critical AOA doesn't change as much.  However, we teach using a combination of AOA and airspeed in the pattern.  We have a minimum airspeed during the turn to final and a minimum airspeed once established on final.  At the same time, there is a minimum AOA that you can't go below - i.e. you must fly the faster of the AOA or airspeed.

 

In this way, the AOA only becomes a factor in two circumstances - First, you're heavweight (i.e. near max gross weight).  Second, your bank, turn rate, pitch, airspeed combination in your turn to final add up to nearing the critical angle of attack.  This is where the AOA really helps - I have seen students at a normally safe airspeed, but a very unsafe AOA by demanding too much out of the aircraft (too tight a turn DW to Final).  Remember, you can easily stall your Mooney at a "safe" airspeed by pulling around the turn too hard (bank + G).  AOA will warn you there.

 

Hopefully soon, I'll be a Mooney owner and get a little more "cred" here, but thanks for letting me post my thoughts...

[PTK]

I'm a little late to the party on this topic, but would like to add my 2 cents... I previously flew F-15Es and we could easily have a weight change of 35,000lbs  (80,000lb max gross weight aircraft) between takeoff and landing (combination of fuel burned and ordinance dropped).  In the pattern, we flew only AOA, nothing else.  This made sense because the critical AOA of the wing never changed, but the stall speed (level, unaccelerated flight) changed dramatically. 

 

Now I'm flying the T-6 Texan II and teaching young Air Force pilots to fly.  We (only) have 1,000 pounds of gas compared to a ~6,000lb airplane.  The speed (level, unaccelerated flight) for critical AOA doesn't change as much.  However, we teach using a combination of AOA and airspeed in the pattern.  We have a minimum airspeed during the turn to final and a minimum airspeed once established on final.  At the same time, there is a minimum AOA that you can't go below - i.e. you must fly the faster of the AOA or airspeed.

 

In this way, the AOA only becomes a factor in two circumstances - First, you're heavweight (i.e. near max gross weight).  Second, your bank, turn rate, pitch, airspeed combination in your turn to final add up to nearing the critical angle of attack.  This is where the AOA really helps - I have seen students at a normally safe airspeed, but a very unsafe AOA by demanding too much out of the aircraft (too tight a turn DW to Final).  Remember, you can easily stall your Mooney at a "safe" airspeed by pulling around the turn too hard (bank + G).  AOA will warn you there.

 

Hopefully soon, I'll be a Mooney owner and get a little more "cred" here, but thanks for letting me post my thoughts...

Ragsf15e, thank you for taking the time to share your expertise.