Aerodon

Old thread, but I think I will add some comments considering that I have owned both, with more than 500 hours in a T-III and T-IV (along with many other Piper's). 1) When we purchased a 1979 T-IV for $50k in 1994, a 231 was $70k, not an insignificant difference, and quite a lot of that difference was probably due to the better avionics and autopilot that tended to come standard with a 231. 2) The T-IV was about 15kts slower on the same fuel, but I would say the FB engine had a better reputation than the GB or LB. There is a trade off for most things. 3) The T-IV is easier for both the front and rear passengers to get into, and to be honest I prefer the higher and more upright seating positions in the Pipers. I think the view is better out of the Piper. 4) I kinda liked the low baggage door, and really like the clip in/out rear seats and flat loading area it left behind in the T-IV. 5) I would say the Piper is easier to work on, and just as well built. I think the Mooney's had terrible paint and corrosion protection in that era. Even 1986, who assembles a plane and then just paints the visible parts. 6) Over shorter trips, I don't think the fuel or speed makes much of a difference. I'm now at the stage where I want to do 2500nm trips, and every bit of speed and efficiency will help. 7) Those that say a T-tail is hard to land, simply haven't mastered the technique required. An '80 kt landing speed' is misinformation. Trim properly approach at 70, over the numbers at 60 and you can grease it on. Take-off too -trim properly and it will fly off the ground like any other plane. 8) The T-tail is great for a hangar, allows you to share a hangar with car or boat. And I still think it looks better. So yes, I fell for the marketing ploy. 9) I would not look down at an Arrow owner. We all have different priorities and resources. 10) And Piper is still in production with proper parts network, can't exactly say the same for Mooney.

I'm replacing the preselect in KFC150 with aG500 and GAD43e because it seemed too difficult to retain all the parts required to keep the altitude select working with the KAS297B. Not impossible, but difficult. So if yours was working, I will have the parts you may need to repair. The KAS297 needs a grey code input from either the original KEA130 altimeter or a 'new' blind encoder. It also needs a baro correction from the original KEA130, or from something like a GI-275. I will be able to give you feedback on my GAD43e install soon. Biggest issue so far has been the $$$ for the brick. Aerodon

It's hard to operate an N registered plane outside the US unless it is registered ion a trust. I am not very familiar with this, but maybe the first step would be to find out if you can become the new beneficiary off the trust without re-registering the plane? Aerodon

My DC story - I sent a ANR 'box' to DC for repairs and expected them to call me. When I eventually got around to calling them they hadn't received it. I had the tracking number and 'left at front door' receipt but they denied receiving it. I went back to my UPS store to see if it came back and found out that they had somehow redressed it to a person in MA. I had a name and address and managed to google it and found a usable address. I sent an email asking if he had perhaps received a small package with an arbitrary 'battery pack' in it. He replied, said yes, had no idea what it was and who it was from. I had already seen he was only 2 miles from DC, and pretty much on his route to town. I asked him to drop it off at the security gate and he kindly did. And then DC didn't repair it, they sent me a brand new one with a $0.00 invoice. There is something to be said for companies that still have people that talk to the security guard at the gate, the customer and the back office and stand behind their product many years later. We should reward them more with our purchases even if slightly more expensive than others. And reward the companies that do their best to continue servicing their products long after they stop selling them, and not some arbitrary 'do not repair' date. Aerodon

You are correct on both accounts. The Battery Minder to 'Aux' plug won't work, first because it it is on the wrong side of the Aux contactor (and may not have the 3rd pin connected or enough power to pull the Aux relay closed anyway), second I agree that you would not want the battery minder to be closing the relay. I like GeeBees double plug installation, and I would buy two Batteryminders so they can both look after the batteries independently. Aerodon

OK, so I know its pricey, but this seems to be a better idea for single batteries. No installation time, just use your Aux Power socket to charge the battery. I take it that the 'small positive' socket is not connected and therefore won't turn the Aux Contactor and aircraft on when you plug it it. I'm not familiar with the dual battery wiring. Doesn't it defeat the object if you have a precisely controlled charger that could be trying to maintain two different batteries? Aerodon

I agree that this one is difficult - have you seen the massive increase in airplane engine and parts pricing, and have you ever seen those go back down? And the used parts planes are now buying 'airworthy' aircraft because of the value in parting it out. I suspect this trend will continue, tightening up the supply side of used airplanes. And not all planes are equal, C172 prices have increase way more than average, so some types just don't increase in value. Aerodon

John, Let Mike take #3 and the bolts, and I'll take #1 & #2 please. supercub180@gmail.com Aerodon

Oh, if you knew how much of a hoarder and bottom feeder I am, you would know that the comment should have been in green. Aerodon

This is the sort of thing that would push me over the edge and buy a GFC500 with electric trim... Aerodon

Also think future resale value. A poorly described log entry or repair becomes a red flag. I nice clean entry stating corrosion found, stub spar replaced goes a long way to providing comfort to a future buyer. Aerodon

Yes, my 55" flat screen TV won't fail, regardless of how many hours I leave it on.....

If you look at the electrical drawing for your serial number, you will see it shows a 5A fuse near the battery master. And it looks like two additional circuits branch off after the clock, one to FF memory, the other to overhead cabin lights. Are those working? Then your clock has failed. If you look here, I still have the drawings for your serial number. Aerodon

If you look at the electrical drawing for your serial number, you will see it shows a 5A fuse near the battery master. And it looks like two additional circuits branch off after the clock, one to FF memory, the other to overhead cabin lights. Are those working? Then your clock has failed. Aerodon

My post was poorly worded, airlines have two sets of lights, your plane should have one set of nav and one set of strobes, each set having three bulbs. You are correct, the earlier M20J AFM has a much more generic Day/Night/VFR/IFR Limitations page. I believe the 'generic requirements' are posted already in this thread. Aerodon

A lot of commercial aircraft have 2 complete sets of lighting, because they cannot dispatch an airplane at night with an inoperative wingtip light (or anything else on the minimum equipment list). If you look in the limitations section of your M20J (see attached page), you will see the reference to 3 strobe lights and 3 nav lights. (one set of each). Aerodon

I think I have read all the above posts, but a couple of additional comments that might help future buyers 1) I have learned the hard way too, buying plane from a dealer with 550 SMOH (done by the dealer) that later turned out to be a top overhaul. Forced an engine overhaul, (once again by the dealer, because the paperwork issue was found during an annual). Dealer felt bad, and offered to pay half if the seller paid half. Seller would not, so dealer did not. Expensive learning curve. With the knowledge and resources I have now, I would probably sue. 2) Cessna's have SIDS, SB's and AD's to find 'hidden damage'. The really expensive spar carry through on 210's come to mind. I would expect a pre purchase of the centre section to have at the very least a visual inspection of the area and a recommendation to to the AD. Otherwise you very much run the risk of passing the pre-buy and failing the AD two months later and pending $$$$. Same with the eddy current inspections of wing struts etc. There's a visual inspection that would suffice for a PPI (pre purchase inspection) but you could fail 2 months later. So there's a lot of risk, and maybe another way of dealing with this is to have a buyers agent / advisor, especially for first time buyers. 3) Purchase price comes into it - I have bought a couple of planes based on my own assessment and the knowledge that the deal is good enough to allow for fixing a few things. In fact I prefer buying a plane with a runout engine and prop, that reduces a substantial portion of the PPI, and leaves money towards the engine. And corrosion is my number one concern, one of the hardest things to detect, quantify and rectify. Its not hard to look inside a few inspection panels and see how clean the aluminum is to make an overall assessment. I sold a Piper recently, and the buyers inspector knew exactly where to of look for the worst corrosion (steel against aluminum attachments). And they found it and fixed it at my expense. I treated it as a positive experience, because the shop knew their stuff, the buyer got a good plane. I represented the sale as it being a very good plane. (2000TT, 20 SMOH, 200 SNEW prop, premium price). A lot of the time the potential problems are built into a lower purchase price, just like it is for cars. If you buy a 20 year old car with 200,000 miles on it, what do you expect? Or what does a reasonable buyer expect? In BC a private seller can sell a vehicle as is where is. A dealer cannot. And if you are silent on a major issue you could still get sued. 4) In this particular case, focus on getting the shop to repair it properly so that you can feels safe flying it, and also eventually sell the airplane with a clear conscience. A good logbook entry will describe the problem found, the repairs done etc. so when you sell, you don't have to mention anything more. Get some outside assistance on determine the correct repair. Personally I don't think the seller knew. But if he was getting his annual inspections done for $500, then he should have known. 5) Once it is all done and you are sitting with the airplane, completed logbooks and invoice, arrange a meeting with the shop. Until the work is done and invoiced, it is not clear if you have suffered a loss? And threatening a lawsuit at an early stage is a guaranteed way of getting a poor repair and your plane put in the back corner and we will still be discussing this in 6 months. If you really feel they wronged you, tell them so and ask them to make it right. If they refuse, pay them in full, write 'under protest' on your check, take your stuff and leave. They are legally obliged to take the payment and let you leave. Then file a claim, or a small claim court and go tell your story. I suspect a small claim judge might be quite sympathetic, there is an expectation that a reasonable PPI of a car, house, boat etc. will identify major issues, and the guys doing these inspections are liable for the stuff not found. 6) I've never threatened to sue, or resign or fire someone. When I get that 'feeling' that it is necessary, I turn things over in my mind until I am sure I am going to go one way or another. I have won every single lawsuit I have been involved in, and succesfully defended every claim against me. 7) Good luck in getting through this, keep positive, it can all be sorted out. Aerodon

Interesting distinction. So if you look in Section II - Limitations of the AFM, you are required to have 3 nav lights and 3 strobe lights for night VFR and IFR. Nothing for day VFR or IFR. This also answers my question above above the 'rotating beacon' or strobe, on the belly, if it's the 4th 'strobe' it is redundant. Aerodon

Steven, I disagree with you. The aft facing nav lights are part of the red/green/white position light system and should be TSO'd. And secondly, I followed your advice and bought these, they do not fit my Mooney. I have subsequently seen a Mooney conversion kit that seems to convert from one bulb holder to another. Don't worry I'm not 100% sure that it was you that posted these first and I'm not grumpy with you or the person who did. But it's a reminder to go back and look a the parts manual and the wiring diagrams for your individual Mooney before buying unapproved stuff. Or any aftermarket stuff for that matter. Aerodon

Hi James, I'm not disagreeing with you, my Mooney came with forward facing recognition lights (optional), wingtip and rudder strobes, wingtip red and green, and wingtip aft white. The optional forward facing recognition lights have been removed, and the strobes have been replaced with TSO'd equipment. The Nav lights have been replaced with LEDS on the wingtip and rudder. The plane never had a belly or fin red strobe and I'd like to install one. Not for in-flight anti collision but I like have a permanently on one to show people on the ground that the plane is 'live' and to show me that I have forgotten to turn the master off. Not that I have done it in many years, but I am in the habit of always looking back at the plane before I walk away from it to check for tiedowns, loose cover straps, forgotten luggage and 'master off'. I like the Aveo streamlined version, they have a much more expensive TSO's version. I just don't like the shape of the Whelen unit, and given that I don't have to give any consideration to pre-existing mounts or holes, I have a choice. Aerodon

I checked the wiring diagrams, I think it is safe to say the M20K;s (231's) all had combine strobes on the rudder. From Serial number 25-1000 onwards (252's) had a strobe only in the rudder and two halogen lights on the back of the wingtips. If either one of these fail then you are not legal for night flight (the 110 degree coverage). I've taken these off (forced to, because the Aveo wingtip does not have them) and replaced with a TSO'd combined strobe and white nav light. Aerodon

Aveo engineering make these for experimental aircraft: https://www.aveoengineering.com/supernova-fs-daylite/ What are the legalities of installing a non-TSO'd light when it is not required lighting on an aircraft. Don

I'm not sure if you are spreading misinformation here. For sure My M20K has two rear facing white lights on the wingtips and one rear facing white strobe on the rudder (no nav light or wiring for it on the rudder). The earlier K's had a strobe / nav combination on the rudder and no wingtip white nav lights. I'm reasonably sure that if there are aft facing white nav lights, then there is not an aft facing rudder nav light and vice versa, even on later models. Aerodon

I've just done this, mainly because of scope creep. Whelen Nav / Strobe combination. I changed my wingtips to the Aveo's, partly because they look cool and because it is getting difficult to replace the forward facing halogen recognition lights and aft facing halogen Nav lights. In fact I bought a set of LED replacements for the AFT lights, and they didn't fit, somewhere along the way there is a conversion kit to accept a different bulb. The new tips don't have the aft Nav light, so I had to install a combined Nav / Strobe unit like the older M20K's. The Whelen unit is nice. You get to remove the old strobe and the power supply 'brick'. You can use the wiring that was for the 'brick' for the strobe portion, but you have to pull a new wire all the way to the front for the Nav Light. All worth it in my opinion. Aerodon.

I cringe when I see how much passengers load into the overhead bins, knowing that they are only designed for 50lbs or so, and that the weight is not properly accumulated in the paperwork. I just shook my head once departing from Phoenix when the gate told pax that they could not take any more weight in the hold, so carry on only for the rest of the pax. I'm just updating a W&B for a C172, they came out of the factory with a calculated weight. Yeah, if you have a properly prepared W&B, its legal, and keep going. A 50lb error is not going to make much difference. Aerodon