When to sell

[bd32322]

My mooney is up there in engine age .. 1850 hours approx. I eventually want to get a rocket .. so I am wondering should I sell now or after hanging a factory reman engine with roller tappets?

To me it makes sense to sell now and let the new owner overhaul the engine as they wish. More importantly the new owner gets to break it in using their preferred method. Its also less hassle for me. But I am hearing that an aeroplane with a nearly run out engine takes a nose dive in value - more than the 15$ per flight hour engine depreciation ..

What do you guys think?

[M016576]

I'd sell now: putting a new motor on is way costly, and you won't get back all you put into it... Especially if you are getting a FRM from lycoming. Trust me, I just went through overhaul on my motor 6 months ago: it's expensive.

[jetdriven]

After it has 1850 it is going to be priced as runout, and the first 200-300 hours will not take much of a hit in value on a new engine. But the FWF cost with a factory engine is around 35-38 grand. You will add 20-25K in value to your plane by doing it.

[KSMooniac]

I agree, but it is a catch-22.  You'll have a harder time selling it (ie it will potentially take longer), but you won't get all of your money back if you put a FRM on just to sell it either.  Knowing what I know now as an experienced owner, I'd rather buy a great running (and frequently flown) Mooney with a 1800-2000 SMOH engine than one with a fresh overhaul, especially if it is a cut-rate job.  I doubt I'm like most buyers, though.  A savvy buyer would know what he is getting into potentially with a high time engine and either keep flying on "bonus time" or overhaul/replace to his specs.

 

Another option is to trade with a broker like AAA or similar that might have an inventory and frequently do some upgrades to make planes more marketable.  Sometimes that happens in conjunction with a buyer, and they manage the maintenance or avionics upgrades after a deal is struck.

[carusoam]

Would you be inclined to use it past theoretical TBO?

That's the money saving question. OK for private pilots to do so. Unless you fear the engine falling out of it's mounts on a schedule.

I have not had the opportunity, so I have no experience to share.

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

Check the time stamps on the last few. Independent of each other. Saying essentially similar views.

Unfortunately, you are already in the expensive zone. How you handle it is up to you.

Do you need to sell, want to sell or want a different plane?

-a-

[timpercarpio]

Listen to Mike Busch's Webinar from Savvy Maintenance on overhauls.

[rbridges]

How do field overhauls compare in money spent vs. money recouped?  

[N33GG]

I would sell now. I agree with KSMooniac. I would prefer a high time well running machine to a fresh overhaul. You will take your knocks either way. I think you will be better off taking your licks now and letting a new owner put the new engine in how and when they wish.

I have owned many aircraft in the past that were running great, so I kept running them way past TBO. Not a recommendation here, just a statement of fact. I have also paid for new engines to replace old ones, and had bad luck...now that is frustrating! (There is a reason they call it a bathtub curve regarding reliability...it's real!)

Whatever you do, Good Luck!

[carusoam]

Probably better with a C than with an Acclaim.

The more modern airframe, is more expensive, and the customer gets a little bit higher expectations. And willing to pay a little more to get measurable improvements.

A new plane needs a new engine.

I high end plane deserves a factory reman. The owner intends to keep and use.

An old high end plane on a budget wants a factory overhaul. The owner intends to use it and sell it along the way.

An old run out plane in need of an engine will get the lowest cost overhaul available on the field. The owner intends to sell it. Sooner rather than later.

Mine just got a factory remanufactured engine. (thanx Cris)

Best regards,

-a-

[bd32322]

Yeah I also would like to buy a plane close to TBO so that I can overhaul it to my specs. And I do not like buying a freshly overhauled engine, no matter who did it because I am paying for the new engine but I am not getting to break it in the way I think it should be done.

[jetdriven]

The funny thing in the market, the runout airplanes are only 15-20K cheaper than ones with fresh engines, etc.

[wishboneash]

The funny thing in the market, the runout airplanes are only 15-20K cheaper than ones with fresh engines, etc.

 

All the more reason to sell without working on the engine.

[scottfromiowa]

I agree. Sell as is. Let new owner decide.

[jetdriven]

All the more reason to sell without working on the engine.

But they take much longer to move, and the buyers get it in the shop for prebuy and load up on the repairs, which lowers the selling price even further.  Or people simply dont call.

[fantom]

But they take much longer to move, and the buyers get it in the shop for prebuy and load up on the repairs, which lowers the selling price even further.  Or people simply dont call.

 

Interesting how our perspective changes when we're a possible seller vs when we're a potential buyer

[jetdriven]

We never called on about ten M20Js simply because by the time we put an engine in it, we would be in it for a hundred grand.  100K is average 1984 M20J or real nice 1977 M20J territory.

[fantom]

We never called on about ten M20Js simply because by the time we put an engine in it, we would be in it for a hundred grand.  100K is average 1984 M20J or real nice 1977 M20J territory.

 Isn't that about what you now have in your '77?

[jetdriven]

yep, about a hundred grand. Seems the IO-360 flat tappet cam is only good for 1200 hours.  For that, we got screwed on about 7 grand in engine time that was lost.  Its a very specific and hellishly expensive issue, but very real.  Next plane I buy is going to have a fresh engine, or a runout. Lilely it will have a Continental IO-550..... The fresh engine ones arent much more than runout.

 

FWIW I liked a 1982 M20J in PA that was 11 grand more but had a Penn Yann 400 hour engine, and a G430W.  Unfortunately our budget wouldnt allow it. A year later we went over a cliff with the engine overhaul cost. Looking back, we couldnt afford NOT to buy that one.  I guess you set purchase budgets but dont overlook the ones just outside that.

 

One more thing, there is a helluva difference between a field overhaul and a factory roller engine. Both in price and quality.

[bd32322]

Would you be inclined to use it past theoretical TBO?

That's the money saving question. OK for private pilots to do so. Unless you fear the engine falling out of it's mounts on a schedule.

I have not had the opportunity, so I have no experience to share.

Best regards,

-a-

I would be willing to fly past TBO given its current condition. However, I was saying in my original post, that I would like to move up to a rocket .. And I dont want to buy the rocket first and then sell the J .. The buyers will take me to the cleaners

[fantom]

yep, about a hundred grand. Seems the IO-360 flat tappet cam is only good for 1200 hours......

One more thing, there is a helluva difference between a field overhaul and a factory roller engine. Both in price and quality.

 

I must be living, engine wise, on borrowed time.

 

When the time comes, I can't see anything other than a factory reman, with those roller tappets. No slicks for me, however.

[Steve65E-NC]

What is the condition of the paint. I think that is more important in making a sell at this point than a fresh engine overhaul. What are compressions, oil usage, documented oil change intervals and any special oil or treatment. With good indicators, the buyer can run on up to maybe 2400 if he chooses and then get the overhaul that he wants and knows.

[jetdriven]

I must be living, engine wise, on borrowed time.

 

When the time comes, I can't see anything other than a factory reman, with those roller tappets. No slicks for me, however.

 

When that time comes, PM me, Ill show you how to put Bendix 1200s in there, along with 25 degrees of timing....

[Cris]

In general like Steve65e-nc points out people buy what looks good. New paint/interior will get a plane sold sooner as people look at that as an indication of pride of ownership and will often over look other discrepancies. Look at Vref for how an A/C is appraised. It starts with a mid-time engine so no way will one be able to recoup the cost of a factory reman. It will be necessary to fly it for awhile to get some return on the investment. At least that has been my experience. The same goes for the point often made for an A/C that has low time vs one that has high time but is regularly flown. Vref gives dollars for a low time engine or airframe as opposed to the high time regularly flown A/C. I know that is different from what many believe but that is the market reality. One can make the case that an allowance should be made "in case an engine problem comes up" but Vref does not support that argument and in fact takes just the opposite position. That is also the case with a low time airframe in that the avionics and accessories will look better and have less wear than the high time regularly flown bird. Just sayin....

[RJBrown]

Buyers want turnkey houses and airplanes. A runout won't sell. I tried. At 1850 we put in a fresh engine to sell it.