Camguard....and LOP operations really help clean and seal up a engine?!?

[Dale]

Ed,

Thank you for your time and thoughtful analysis in answering all these questions about Camguard. When I purchased my Mooney a couple of years ago I had the engine overhauled, as it was at TBO. The firm that did the work recommended Camguard after the engine was broken in. They told me in their experience, after overhauling hundreds of airplane engines over the years, that Camguard would definitely help my engine make TBO, especially if I flew less than 100 hours a year. I use it with each oil change and have an oil analysis done at the same time. Everything has been great. Thanks for a great product.

[BigTex]

There's been some pretty hard lines drawn for or against Camguard.  It's pretty clear that for the folks that don't buy into Camguard's claim, at this point they never will. 

 

Listening to Mike Busch multiple times talk about oil's and oil additives, he's a big believer in Camguard based on engines he has personally rebuilt.  I know there's not been that multi-million dollar study done but there's been enough (for me) very respected folks in the industry swear by it to get my vote.  Even if it extends my engine's life by a couple of hundred hours, it was worth it for me.

[aviatoreb]

There's been some pretty hard lines drawn for or against Camguard.  It's pretty clear that for the folks that don't buy into Camguard's claim, at this point they never will. 

 

Listening to Mike Busch multiple times talk about oil's and oil additives, he's a big believer in Camguard based on engines he has personally rebuilt.  I know there's not been that multi-million dollar study done but there's been enough (for me) very respected folks in the industry swear by it to get my vote.  Even if it extends my engine's life by a couple of hundred hours, it was worth it for me.

 

I will repeat that I do use cam guard - I believe well enough to say why not.

 

But the danger of the last few posts that say that experience of rebuilders suggests that cam guard engines look better than not cam guard engines.....even if a proper correlation study were setup and it said the same thing - it would read that there is a high correlation between clean engines at tbo using cam guard vs rusty engines w/o cam guard at tho, with a high significance p-value - such observations and studies relying on correlation are not casual.  They cannot discern casuation.  The causation might be secondary - for example, maybe the folks who go to the trouble of using cam guard are essentially more careful and focused not he health of their engines and they also tend not to run their engines too hot, and therefore it is the lack of high heat in their ops that is systematically causing cam guard engines to last longer.  Or maybe non cam guard users just don't worry as much and run their engines even less periodically than cam guard users.  Trust me, I'm a math prof, correlation and causation are very different things.  I see this error frequently in scientific studies in the scientific literature.  

[1TJ]

Mr Kollin, with your product being out nearly a decade, do you have any anecdotal evidence from users who have gone from overhaul to overhaul (or TBO) and their results compared to typical ones?

 

Many people have told me that their engine builders and prop shops have commented on the lack of deposits and sludge found in their engines and prop hubs.

 

Steve Knopp (Mr. P. Ponk) and I had a discussion a while back and he told me started seeing engines coming back for overhaul cleaner than he had ever seen. Upon investigation he discovered the only difference was Camguard use throughout the life of the engine. He actually used the word "beautiful" in describing these engines.

 

Ed 

[carusoam]

AEB,

How large would the sample size need to be?

Could we include all engine types (O360, IO360, IO540, IO550 and turbo versions as well) in one sample.

I would guess that we don't have a way to get statistically proper data from our "small" membership.

Questions.

(1) does it work (in our engines, environment and operations)?

(2) does it have any ill side effects?

(3) what can we use in lew of proper statistical data.... (expert opinion, end user testimony)

I always appreciate the suppliers that come here and answer questions and offer solutions.

Best regards,

-a-

[1TJ]

I will repeat that I do use cam guard - I believe well enough to say why not.

 

But the danger of the last few posts that say that experience of rebuilders suggests that cam guard engines look better than not cam guard engines.....even if a proper correlation study were setup and it said the same thing - it would read that there is a high correlation between clean engines at tbo using cam guard vs rusty engines w/o cam guard at tho, with a high significance p-value - such observations and studies relying on correlation are not casual.  They cannot discern casuation.  The causation might be secondary - for example, maybe the folks who go to the trouble of using cam guard are essentially more careful and focused not he health of their engines and they also tend not to run their engines too hot, and therefore it is the lack of high heat in their ops that is systematically causing cam guard engines to last longer.  Or maybe non cam guard users just don't worry as much and run their engines even less periodically than cam guard users.  Trust me, I'm a math prof, correlation and causation are very different things.  I see this error frequently in scientific studies in the scientific literature.  

 

IF we see UNIQUELY deposit and sludge free engines at overhaul (mimicking our certification engine results) that have NEVER been seen before AND the only difference is Camguard use ...........

 

Ed

[carusoam]

Ed,

Do we get a discount for the whole community being involved and reporting back data?

Best regards,

-a-

[1TJ]

Ed,

Do we get a discount for the whole community being involved and reporting back data?

Best regards,

-a-

 

Come see me at Sun n' Fun or Oshkosh.

 

Ed

[KSMooniac]

I still don't think such a comprehensive study is feasible for a number of reasons.  I DO however believe that Ed's observation about the anecdotal stories of unusally clean engines being discovered upon disassembly has a lot of merit and supports the claims of reducing deposits and keeping an engine clean.  It would be much hard to study it's effect on keeping cams from failing in the fleet with our Lycomings, for example. 

 

Try to imagine the difficulty and expense of a study concerning the effects of Camguard on the Lycoming IO-360 just to make an example.  You would need 5-6 examples for each parameter you want to study, and those 5 or 6 planes would need to live and fly the same patterns, get oil changed at the same time, run ROP or LOP the same, etc. etc. etc.  They would likely have to start with a fresh overhaul at a minimum, or perhaps a factory new engine to satisfy allsmiles.  Then you would need another 5 or 6 that live and fly in a different part of the country where the humidity profile is different.  You would need groups that fly frequently (like a flight school) and groups that fly regularly (say 150-200 hrs/year) and groups that fly infrequently (say 50 hrs/year).  So now you're looking at 3 groups of 5-6 planes each in each part of the country that you want to study to make it statistically rigorous.  Think you can find those people and fund such a study?  It would also take up to 20 years or more to reach TBO for some of those groups.  Care to miss out on the claimed benefits of Camguard for 2 decades?

[DaV8or]

Since this thread has turned into a conversation with Ed the oil guy, I have a question and a suggestion.

 

Ed, I saw your thoughts on oil change intervals based on hours, but what about calender? I use Phillips 20-50 and Camguard. I'm doing well if I make it to 80 hours for the year. I use your product because it helps me sleep at night.

 

A suggestion for you. You know how when you buy a case of Phillips it comes with a free plastic pouring spout? How about when you buy a case of Camguard you get a free plastic, graduated measuring cup to make adding the Camguard easier. I have at this point made my own from an old water bottle, but when you want to add just a quart and also when you do an oil change and put 7 quarts, the quantity gauge on the side of the bottle isn't so great and a measuring cup really helps. Even if you don't want to give them away, maybe price them under $5. Just an idea.

[fantom]

Ed,

 

Since a bunch of us got a great buy on a large number of cases of Exxon Elite a while ago, that's what I've been using. Other than wasting a few bucks, is there any advantage or harm in adding CamGuard during oil changes until I deplete my stock of Elite, and return to Phillips?

 

Thanks for your time and patience with us.

[PTK]

Many people have told me that their engine builders and prop shops have commented on the lack of deposits and sludge found in their engines and prop hubs.

Prominent shops such as Penn Yan Aero and Western Skyways disagree and see no benefit in any additive. As does the Lycoming factory.

I still don't think such a comprehensive study is feasible for a number of reasons.

Try to imagine the difficulty and expense of a study concerning the effects of Camguard on the Lycoming IO-360 just to make an example.

Blackstone maintains databases on just about every engine. They do not see any benefit of using any additive. In fact, they conclude that even oil brand makes no difference on wear metals in an IO-360! They see similar results among different oil brands.

[KSMooniac]

 Prominent shops such as Penn Yan Aero and Western Skyways disagree and see no benefit in any additive. As does the Lycoming factory.

 

Blackstone maintains databases on just about every engine. They do not see any benefit of using any additive. In fact, they conclude that even oil brand makes no difference on wear metals in an IO-360. They see similar results among different oil brands.

 

I've never seen any such statements by any of the organizations you just named.  Care to provide a link or copy of document with those observations?  If you believe oil brand makes no difference, why do you use Shell 15-50?

[aviatoreb]

IF we see UNIQUELY deposit and sludge free engines at overhaul (mimicking our certification engine results) that have NEVER been seen before AND the only difference is Camguard use ...........

 

Ed

 

Suppose I exercise every day, and dress in lycra every day while doing it (I do), and eat well.  Then when I am 60 suppose I have great cardiovascular indicators such as less vascular blockage and good heart rate and so forth.  Suppose my doctor notices these correlation in many of his/her 60 year old patients.  He sees many of his healthiest patients coming in wearing lycra.  The doctor starts to advise patients to wear lycra since he notices that lycra wearing patients have healthy hearts.  Even a correlation study and a large sample study suggests a strong correlation between lycra and a healthy heart.  The FDA and NIH sponsors the study of the correlation.  People want to wear lycra all the time to reap the benefits in their health. Then the health food industry realizes that people are embarrassed to wear lycra when they are overweight, so they develop a lycra pill that they suggest people should take 3 times a day as part of the anti-aging food stuff craze and they charge just $.50 a pill.  It sells like billions and the company makes a fortune.

 

Seriously though I was just saying professionally, speaking devils advocate, that correlation is not causation as there can be secondary factors as I said - maybe there is a high correlation between cam guard buyers and those same people operating their engines well/not hamfisted.

 

Nonetheless, I am quite convinced enough that I use the cam guard stuff religiously in my own engine.

[carusoam]

Anthony,

That is a interesting source of information.

They are the guys who can "see" the difference in a wide number of engines, with and without Camguard.

I assume iron oxide will be near non existent in a Camguard engine, and be pretty high in a non Camguard engine that sits often.

Nice observation!

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

IF we see UNIQUELY deposit and sludge free engines at overhaul (mimicking our certification engine results) that have NEVER been seen before AND the only difference is Camguard use ........... Ed Suppose I exercise every day, and dress in lycra every day while doing it (I do), and eat well. Then when I am 60 suppose I have great cardiovascular indicators such as less vascular blockage and good heart rate and so forth. Suppose my doctor notices these correlation in many of his/her 60 year old patients. He sees many of his healthiest patients coming in wearing lycra. The doctor starts to advise patients to wear lycra since he notices that lycra wearing patients have healthy hearts. Even a correlation study and a large sample study suggests a strong correlation between lycra and a healthy heart. The FDA and NIH sponsors the study of the correlation. People want to wear lycra all the time to reap the benefits in their health. Then the health food industry realizes that people are embarrassed to wear lycra when they are overweight, so they develop a lycra pill that they suggest people should take 3 times a day as part of the anti-aging food stuff craze and they charge just $.50 a pill. It sells like billions and the company makes a fortune. Seriously though I was just saying professionally, speaking devils advocate, that correlation is not causation as there can be secondary factors as I said - maybe there is a high correlation between cam guard buyers and those same people operating their engines well/not hamfisted. Nonetheless, I am quite convinced enough that I use the cam guard stuff religiously in my own engine.

Pretty funny. Unfortunately true. In the multi-billion dollar weight loss business there are millions of people who pay companies to sell them prepared meals. Something you could do yourself if you took the time to understand the caloric/nutrient factors. People often look for a quick solution rather than taking the time to understand the cause of the problem. I was one of those people who bought prepared meals and after I got done eating enough cardboard meals, I knew there had to be a better way -- there is, measure, know and understand what you eat! Duh! I have been able to keep 75 pounds by investing the time in understanding the problem. All of those diet plans are nothing more than different ways to address weight loss. The same common sense approach exists for engines! There is enough information out there that clearly says our engines will rust inside out if they are not flown enough. There are several warning signs that an engine has a problem with rust. The primary ones for our top mounted cam engines are rust on the cam itself and cylinder wall rusting. This causes pitting. For the cylinders, the A&Ps I have spoken to say that is the first sign they see with rust is pitting of the cylinder walls leading to poor compression. That is why you don't see them pulling a cylinder at every annual looking at the cam. The health of the cylinder is an earlier indicator. That is what prompted my question regarding what the rebuilders are seeing. I think of them as the guys doing the autopsy on the fat guy. "What was the cause of death? Too many bacon cheeseburgers." I'm not saying that CamGuard doesn't work. I hope it does but I just don't know!

[PTK]

My Blackstone lab reported that they knew I was using camguard and recommended continued use, fwiw ymmv. My system works for me.

Ah

In the case of Camguard the oil analysis will show Ca and P. This is how they know you are using the additive. But they did not tell you to use it because it makes a difference! Their position is that they see no difference. They told you to use it if you'd like but they don't see any benefit over not using it.

[carusoam]

Maurader,

You have me convinced...

Oil testing = blood work, cholesterol level.

Camguard = statin, cholesterol lowering tablet.

Fly often = eat well and exercise often.

All,

Have you had your cholesterol level tested. LD is the bad one, statins really work, check with your Dr.

There are seveveral medications that are acceptable to the FAA like never before. Consult AOPA website for guidelines.

Best regards,

-a-

[1TJ]

Since this thread has turned into a conversation with Ed the oil guy, I have a question and a suggestion.

 

Ed, I saw your thoughts on oil change intervals based on hours, but what about calender? I use Phillips 20-50 and Camguard. I'm doing well if I make it to 80 hours for the year. I use your product because it helps me sleep at night.

 

A suggestion for you. You know how when you buy a case of Phillips it comes with a free plastic pouring spout? How about when you buy a case of Camguard you get a free plastic, graduated measuring cup to make adding the Camguard easier. I have at this point made my own from an old water bottle, but when you want to add just a quart and also when you do an oil change and put 7 quarts, the quantity gauge on the side of the bottle isn't so great and a measuring cup really helps. Even if you don't want to give them away, maybe price them under $5. Just an idea.

 

 I am about 100 hours. I think a calender time of three months is a good time to shoot for.

 

We have looked at a number of plastic "cups" (think laundry detergent) but find the residual Camguard unacceptable (drips, smell, dust attraction). The best way of handling top up oil is to preblend 2 ounces into new bottles of oil. The side strip works well for this. I use 2 ounces because I am adding the makeup oil to dirty oil.

 

Ed

[jetdriven]

ONE thing I dont like about the Camguard bottle is that little blue disc in the cap that comes loose and almost makes it into my engine.  IIRC one person here had that piece jam in the oil drain and lost all his oil inflight. one person on Bechtalk had it go into their engine and cause something too.

[1TJ]

ONE thing I dont like about the Camguard bottle is that little blue disc in the cap that comes loose and almost makes it into my engine.  IIRC one person here had that piece jam in the oil drain and lost all his oil inflight. one person on Bechtalk had it go into their engine and cause something too.

 

We have been using a plug seal one piece cap for 8 months. I only know of 1 person that had the blue liner come out and stick in his oil fill tube on a Continental engine. When he tried to add the next quart of oil, half of it overflowed the tube and made a mess. He was able to retreave the liner from above the restriction in the oil fill tube.

 

Ed 

[Earl]

I'm not a mechanic either but I do believe oil additives are unnecessary overkill. It's throwing perfectly good dollars down the used oil bucket. Using an appropriate oil and changing it regularly is all there is to it!

All I can say is that before I used Camguard I had problems with a couple of valves sticking that no longer occurs since I began using it.  Maybe a coincidence but somehow I don't think so.

[Mcstealth]

Ed, I think he would squeal in agony if you poured it into his crankcase for free ..............!  

 

har har har. That was funny right there.

 

My wifes '02 Dodge with a 4.7Ltr engine has had a low end rod knock for over three years. I buy the "quiet the rod knock additive" at O'Rileys and and I am quite satified with the advertised performance. The bottom end hasn't blown out yet......Knock on Wood.

 

"Honey, what is that sound? What sound? Oh that. Ingnore it"

[fantom]

Ed, I think he would squeal in agony if you poured it into his crankcase for free since you're not a trust-worthy big oil company!  

 

Pictures, we would need pictures!  He sure makes many others squeal in pain:

 

[jetdriven]

We have been using a plug seal one piece cap for 8 months. I only know of 1 person that had the blue liner come out and stick in his oil fill tube on a Continental engine. When he tried to add the next quart of oil, half of it overflowed the tube and made a mess. He was able to retreave the liner from above the restriction in the oil fill tube.

 

Ed 

 

Maybe I have some old Camguard, I ordered it last August.  But that blue cap liner came out last week when we changed the oil. Luckily it hit the engine and didnt go into the oil filler tube.  Lycoming tubes are smaller as well.