Pre-buy Inspection - How?

[Buster1]

Okay, so I'm not quite ready to buy yet, but have been reading a lot.  Seems that the standard process is to put down a refundable deposit on the bird of choice, then have someone do a pre-buy inspection.  I am eyeing some Mooney's all over the country.  How do I find someone who is an expert in Mooneys (and that type, J's K's etc) to do the inspection?  Will he/she travel to the airplane, or should the seller fly it to the inspector?

There is potential for buying the plane sight unseen...that scares me a little.

What were your experiences?  Things you would do different?

[N6843N]

I had a real bad experience with Mooneymart in FL. I put a deposit down and they did the pre buy on an airplane they had consigned to them to sell. After the prebuy they refused to sell me the plane and charged me a large sum of cash for the inspection, I felt ripped off. When I bought my current "C" it was half way across the country and I had a very good experince with a small FBO that had it for sale. They charged me the amount it cost them to list it on line for a non refundable deposit I thought that was fair. They also worked with me as far as taking any pics I wanted and faxing log book copys of what I wanted to see. I got exactly what I thought I was getting. It helped that my plane had the original paint to see there was no damage history and the fact it was low time and well maintained was a big plus.

[Cruiser]

Although the eyeball can see things the camera does not, other than cosmetics what will you seeing the plane in person accomplish?

I bought mine unseen because: I trusted the seller, I spent the money it would have cost me to go see it on a well known MSC that did a thorough inspection. I trusted his judgement. All the exchanges between me and the seller went very well prior to purchase. We negotiated the costs, the seller took the plane to the MSC for inspection in case I refused it for any reason he could take it back. I paid his travel expenses home.

Maybe I was lucky but there have been no surprises in 3 yrs..... Oh, by the way I purchased my first plane the same way. That deal worked out great also.

 

TomK

[KSMooniac]

Something that hasn't been mentioned yet but is very important is the written purchase agreement (PA).  When you find the candidate plane, the deposit + PA lead to the PPI (or annual) with written words covering who pays for what, where & how the plane gets there, and how much you lose if you walk away.  Typically the buyer would/should cover the cost of the inspection and expenses to get the plane to the shop, and the seller will cover airworthiness items uncovered during the process.  "Recommended" items found by the shop can be negotiated or split as required.  I feel this is important because you do not want to be responsible for a bird that goes away from home and then gets grounded after they uncovered massive corrosion or some other show-stopper.

As for finding a good shop to do the inspection, just check back when you have a geographic area narrowed down and I'm sure you'll get a PIREP for one nearby.

With very few exceptions, it is a lousy idea to let a broker/consigner/FBO that is offering the plane do the PPI like N6843N described with Mooneymart. 

[The-sky-captain]

Quote: N6843N

I had a real bad experience with Mooneymart in FL. I put a deposit down and they did the pre buy on an airplane they had consigned to them to sell. After the prebuy they refused to sell me the plane and charged me a large sum of cash for the inspection, I felt ripped off. When I bought my current "C" it was half way across the country and I had a very good experince with a small FBO that had it for sale. They charged me the amount it cost them to list it on line for a non refundable deposit I thought that was fair. They also worked with me as far as taking any pics I wanted and faxing log book copys of what I wanted to see. I got exactly what I thought I was getting. It helped that my plane had the original paint to see there was no damage history and the fact it was low time and well maintained was a big plus.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Find a plane to consider then come here and ask which shop to take it to.  Some good ones I can think of off the top of my head:

 

G-Force Aviation (Akron-Canton Airport KCAK in Ohio).  I got an annual as my prebuy up there in February.

Don Maxwell Aviation in Longview, TX (KGGG).

Willmar Air Service in MN.

LASAR in California.

[aschardt]

I had my 67 F model done by Lone Star Aero and had a great expireance.  I was pretty sure I was going to buy the airplane so I had them do a full blown 100 hr. annual along with a tube inspection.  Even though I purchased the plane from a dealer on the same field and was a little nervous if there was conflict of interest there, after talking with the owner of the shop he assured me that they would be completely objective.   Also had a prebuy written agreement that the seller would pay for any items deemed "airworthy" items.  I covered the annual and the non airworthy items.  Turned out they found nearly $8000 worth of airworthy items and the seller covered all, no questions asked.  Clearly the shop was objective and the seller honest.  Been happy ever since! 

[KLRDMD]

Quote: KSMooniac

Something that hasn't been mentioned yet but is very important is the written purchase agreement (PA).  When you find the candidate plane, the deposit + PA lead to the PPI (or annual) with written words covering who pays for what, where & how the plane gets there, and how much you lose if you walk away.  Typically the buyer would/should cover the cost of the inspection and expenses to get the plane to the shop, and the seller will cover airworthiness items uncovered during the process.  "Recommended" items found by the shop can be negotiated or split as required.

[Jeff_S]

I think pre-buys are important because an objective third-party can help uncover hidden problems that a more educated can see, and because an inspector doesn't have a vested interest inthe bird (other than their fee) so they can get past the emotion that is often associated when a buyer is that close to getting the deal done. That said, I think some pre-buy inspectors get a little overzealous and are trying to find every nit that's wrong with the plane, which is likely to tick off both the buyer and the seller. Focus on the essentials and the big things that determine how airworthy the plane is and what potential problems might be around the corner and things go well.

I think a written purchase & sale agreement is also helpful because it just spells things out in advance so there are no surprises for either buyer or seller. A well-written one is fair and balanced and shouldn't make either party like they have the upper hand.

A word on deposits: I've always found the "earnest money" concept to be ridiculous. If you have a valid and signed purchsae and sale agreement, that's a contract. In that contract it should be clear what each party's risks and responsibilities are and a deposit sitting in an escrow account somewhere only starts to confuse issues. The Seller still has complete control over the airplane right up until the buyer hands over the payment, so the last thing you want as a Buyer is for the Seller to have some leverage with an escrow agent potentially holding up your money. If the Seller is asking for expenses to help transport the plane to the pre-buy, that should be stated in the contract.

[Jeev]

Hey Buster -

Here is what I did:

Found the aircraft -

Negotiated ballbark price, and sellers openness to a prebuy and/or annual. Did this before I wend down to see it since if the buyer was not willing to do what made me comfortable I could walk without travel expenses ect.

Drafted a purchase agreement and flew commercial to see the aircraft.  This was important not only because I wanted to fly before I buy and check out the little details of the aircraft but also because I wanted to get a feeling for the seller and his honesty level.  At this time I also spent 2-3 hrs going through all the logs and receipts.  Did this in less than 24 hrs - Red eye from Vegas to Corpus Christi and pm flight back.

After I was satisfied with the in person / plane meeting I arranged a prebuy at the closest MSC. Owner flew it up (30min flight) and all the dealings with the MSC were through me; I paid the flat inspection fee of around $1000.  They found about $4500 of airworthy squawks that the seller paid for and another $2000 or so of little things that I decided to pay for.  Since it was already apart I decided to just have them do an annual.  Most shops will let you add on an annual if the deal is a go after the prebuy I think it was $600 or so more. 

When all was good I wired the money to the seller, grabbed a Mooney instructor I know here in Vegas, flew Southwest to TX and the Mooney back.  By time I got home I met the insurance minimums and felt comfortable in my "new" aircraft.

If you want I can E-mail you a copy of the sales agreement for reference.

If i was to do it again I would do it exactly the same.  I was lucky to have an honest seller who didnt even care about me putting down a deposit even though I was willing.  He saw that I was a serious buyer and I wasnt asking for anything crazy.  I did bargin him down a little on price and I feel I got a fair deal and a good aircraft.  For me going down and meeting the guy in person enabled both buyer and seller to form a good business relationship.

[Buster1]

Quote: Jeev

If you want I can E-mail you a copy of the sales agreement for reference.

I'd be interested to see the Basic Pre-purchase Agreement, or anything else that would help me build a solid written "plan" that the seller and I can work from.

Side Note: Looks like the move to Vegas is happening sooner than we thought.  The Air Force told me to expect April!  So now we're starting to try to sell the place here in UT and start looking for a home in Vegas.  Once that dust settles, I should be ready to make an offer!  Got my name on the list for sunshade at KVGT last week! 

[jlunseth]

I would definitely vote for Willmar to do your pre-buy.  You want a shop that knows Mooneys, and knows your particular model.

[MHale]

I'm in the same boat of trying to find a good place to do a pre-buy.  I'm in Houston, TX and the plane is in North Carolina - any suggestions?

[Cruiser]

Quote: MHale

I'm in the same boat of trying to find a good place to do a pre-buy.  I'm in Houston, TX and the plane is in North Carolina - any suggestions?

[KLRDMD]

Quote: MHale

I'm in the same boat of trying to find a good place to do a pre-buy.  I'm in Houston, TX and the plane is in North Carolina - any suggestions?

[Jeev]

Quote: Buster1

[Buster1]

Jeev, awesome!

Cruiser / Ken...those places are pretty far from NC.  Will a seller take the plane that far for a prebuy, then sit there and wait?

[KLRDMD]

Quote: Buster1

Cruiser / Ken...those places are pretty far from NC.  Will a seller take the plane that far for a prebuy, then sit there and wait?

[Buster1]

That's cool.  I've been trying to find Mooney mechanics really close to the seller.  Guess it's up to them how far huh?

[MHale]

Thanks for the suggestion. I think I'm going to try and get the seller to agree to bring it to Don Maxwell in TX.  Figure if it's only a few hours flying and a tank of gas - and then it'll be here for the delivery.

[LFOD]

The seller may resist taking it to a guy like Maxwell.  He will undoubtedly uncover everything wrong with the aircraft. If he has been getting pencil whipped annuals for the last few years, it is going to be ugly and he is not going to be happy.... but you will be.

[N6843N]

I have bought and sold a lot of airplanes in my life and as a seller I would only be willing to fly my plane to the closest MSC for a pre purchase, and only if the buyer was willing to pay ALL expenses involved. That would include me going back home and coming back to pick the aircraft up if need be. When I sell a plane I always tell a buyer they are free to bring a mechanic to my hanger and inspect the plane, I will even pre open panels if they like. I have dealt with my share of flakey buyers and I always learn from my experiences. Hows that old saying go, once bitten twice shy.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: LFOD

The seller may resist taking it to a guy like Maxwell.  He will undoubtedly uncover everything wrong with the aircraft. If he has been getting pencil whipped annuals for the last few years, it is going to be ugly and he is not going to be happy.... but you will be.

[LFOD]

Good deal. I need to get stationed in Texas...

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: LFOD

Good deal. I need to get stationed in Texas...