redbaron1982 Posted February 1 Report Posted February 1 Hey all, I've been thinking for some time now whether to fix some small avionics issues I have with my airplane. For context, I have a '85 J model, with a KFC 150, GNS 430, KX155, GI275 EIS, and DME. All quite old, except for the EIS. Everything works fine, except it looks like when some of the avionics were installed they were not integrated with the request of the equipment. To be more specific, this is the list of issues I'm referring to: The autopilot (KFC 150) is not picking up the glide slope. Either when doing an ILS or LPV approach. The HSI shows the GS indicator, but the GS mode in the KFC doesnt engage. The KFC 150 was bench tested by Bevan Aviation and it's ok. The GI 275 is not getting info from the GNS 430, so I don't get fuel to destination, etc. does not have an OAT probe, so no % power. no fuel sender information, still using the old analogue gauges. no batt info, neither volts or amps. The DME works only on NAV2, it looks like it is not hooked up to NAV1 (GNS430) The items are sort from highest to lowest priority. My question is, is it worth having a shop open up the panel and making all the required fixes or small modifications? How much should I expect an avionics shop to charge for this? Is this something I could do under an AP supervision, I'm an electronic egineer, so I know the stuff, but I have no experience openning up an airplane panel, and I'm afraid it could be a complete wiring mess, really hard to work on.
Crawfish Posted February 1 Report Posted February 1 That’s was the exact situation I found myself in with our 231. I’ll tell you what my thought process was. Got quotes for small upgrades (dual GI 275’s and fixing some issues we had with screens dying, secondary nav dead) vs full panel upgrades. Primarily I wanted everything talking with each other, for ease of use and increased reliability. Secondary my plane was weighed 5 years ago, the plane weighed about 70# more the calculated W&B. And hopefully in removing everything that’s been left in it over the years plus the new avionics, removal of vacuum system, and new autopilot. Will help us steal some of that back. Those were the main reasons We decided to go with the full avionics update. There was a large price difference between the two options think in the neighborhood of 35K.
redbaron1982 Posted February 1 Author Report Posted February 1 3 minutes ago, Crawfish said: That’s was the exact situation I found myself in with our 231. I’ll tell you what my thought process was. Got quotes for small upgrades (dual GI 275’s and fixing some issues we had with screens dying, secondary nav dead) vs full panel upgrades. Primarily I wanted everything talking with each other, for ease of use and increased reliability. Secondary my plane was weighed 5 years ago, the plane weighed about 70# more the calculated W&B. And hopefully in removing everything that’s been left in it over the years plus the new avionics, removal of vacuum system, and new autopilot. Will help us steal some of that back. Those were the main reasons We decided to go with the full avionics update. There was a large price difference between the two options think in the neighborhood of 35K. A full panel upgrade now it's completely out of the question, it would be north of 70k most likely, and is money I rather save for an unexpected big ticket issue. What I have now is old, but is fully functional, so yeah, it would look super cool, reduce workload a bit, but I don't see it worth the investment, even more so if the current avionics is not giving me much headaches.
Crawfish Posted February 1 Report Posted February 1 Okay! I haven’t had any issues with my autopilot so I am of no help there sorry! If I remember correctly outside of the upgrade GI275 fixing all the gremlins was roughly 10K. A good chunk of that was I knew CDI with GS the backup was in repairable. Had the same issue with our EIS 275 not showing fuel to destination. We have a GMA 24 and they only have some many inputs available for external information. So if you already used them all that could be why you don’t have OAT, GPS, fuel level, battery volts or amps. Etc. but I doubt it because with that many things missing I don’t know what all would be filling the available slots. I imagine to get all those things set up it would be 15 hours of labor at whatever your local avionics shop rate would be. The garmin OAT probe is on the expensive side of the OAT probes on the market. Having said that getting everything working has been great I love the GI 275. Not having DME on the GNS430 I think is fairly standard as it uses GPS distance instead of slant range like a DME would.
McMooney Posted February 1 Report Posted February 1 gi-275 i would do, just kinda makes sense. autopilot of course, well if its actually used and not thousands of dollars i'd say really depends on cost for the DME, it can be tuned manually and was probably never hooked up due to not really needing it after the 430 install. if the dme is only a couple hundred bucks, why not. i connected my dme btw, never really use it though
TBone Posted February 1 Report Posted February 1 I’m kinda in this situation so I’d appreciate comments…m231 , Aspen pro 1000 MFD and PFD. G430w integrated. KFC200 autopilot with altitude pre-select . JPI830 , SL30 garmin #2 navcom, Garmin gtx335 xponder, flight stream , stratus 3 with iPad on yoke…. Autopilot getting older but still working. Toggle between gpss on and off for rang or heading bug steering. Id like to go digital autopilot but seems daunting … is there any nice option out there for autopilot and 430 replacement? Everything works
Hank Posted February 1 Report Posted February 1 This just came in yesterday's mail, if you want to compare quotes. No idea about the shop or even where it is located. Be sure to get installation quoted, it can be quite significant!
Yetti Posted February 1 Report Posted February 1 16 hours ago, redbaron1982 said: Hey all, I've been thinking for some time now whether to fix some small avionics issues I have with my airplane. For context, I have a '85 J model, with a KFC 150, GNS 430, KX155, GI275 EIS, and DME. All quite old, except for the EIS. Everything works fine, except it looks like when some of the avionics were installed they were not integrated with the request of the equipment. To be more specific, this is the list of issues I'm referring to: The autopilot (KFC 150) is not picking up the glide slope. Either when doing an ILS or LPV approach. The HSI shows the GS indicator, but the GS mode in the KFC doesnt engage. The KFC 150 was bench tested by Bevan Aviation and it's ok. The GI 275 is not getting info from the GNS 430, so I don't get fuel to destination, etc. does not have an OAT probe, so no % power. no fuel sender information, still using the old analogue gauges. no batt info, neither volts or amps. The DME works only on NAV2, it looks like it is not hooked up to NAV1 (GNS430) The items are sort from highest to lowest priority. My question is, is it worth having a shop open up the panel and making all the required fixes or small modifications? How much should I expect an avionics shop to charge for this? Is this something I could do under an AP supervision, I'm an electronic egineer, so I know the stuff, but I have no experience openning up an airplane panel, and I'm afraid it could be a complete wiring mess, really hard to work on. 1. Probably need to find a GPSS box to install between the 430 and the KFC150. https://mooneyspace.com/topic/17420-gps-roll-steering-with-kfc150/ Alternatively install another Gi275 to drive the Autopilot. What do you have for in the panel for DG and Artificial horizon? 2. The GI 275 is not getting info from the GNS 430, so I don't get fuel to destination, etc. - Not sure would have to look up in manual. This is a function in the 430 if hooked up. Do you have a fuel flow sender? does not have an OAT probe, so no % power. have to run a wire to the wing and install. no fuel sender information, still using the old analogue gauges. Should be able to use the resistive senders. Wires behind panel would need to be moved and then calibrate the tanks. no batt info, neither volts or amps. Might be screen configure issue. Should get voltage from wire feeding the GI275 or off the wires to shunt. Amps, can use shunt installed. it's located on the passenger side inside firewall. up high. Just need to move wires. Also need to check the wires to the shunt there are two inline fuse blocks that if the fuse blows no voltage or amp info.
takair Posted February 1 Report Posted February 1 You have a pretty capable panel, I would get it fixed at a minimum. I’m surprised about the glide slope coupling. The previous owner of your plane flew some serious hard IFR quite routinely and I would be surprised if that wasn’t working. Or were there changes made afterwards? Or did something fail…
Immelman Posted February 1 Report Posted February 1 - How often, really how often, do you fly an approach where the AP tracking the glideslope is necessary? Once every ____ ? Ask yourself if that is worth it. - % power is easily derived from fuel flow if you run LOP. Use a calculator. do you have fuel flow? accurate fuel flow solves the fuel at destination problem. Use a calculator. - ammeter/voltmeter are pretty useful - DME, seems unnecessary with IFR GPS, if it works with your 155 you have a good backup nav system - If I ever do a primary engine gauge replacement I'd want to do capacitive fuel senders and display on the electronic primary. 1
redbaron1982 Posted February 1 Author Report Posted February 1 3 minutes ago, takair said: You have a pretty capable panel, I would get it fixed at a minimum. I’m surprised about the glide slope coupling. The previous owner of your plane flew some serious hard IFR quite routinely and I would be surprised if that wasn’t working. Or were there changes made afterwards? Or did something fail… No changes afterwards, the only thing is that KFC150 altitude hold was not working, but I got that fixed by Bevan and Jake told me that the flight computer passed the bench test after the repair, so everything should be functional from the KC192 point of view. The thing is I have no idea how much to expect for someone to go and work on this small items, is it 5 hours, 20hours, 80 hours? And then, how likely is that they will mess something up and have more issues afterwards.
Rwsavory Posted February 1 Report Posted February 1 Yes, it’s worth it. I had several repairs and updates done on my Mooney radios and a/p throughout the years. The result was that everything in the panel worked flawlessly when I sold the plane. You can keep what’s in your panel fully functional for many thousands of dollars less than a complete refit. Not to mention avoiding the downtime. Find a shop that has experience with your a/p and that is willing to work you in their schedule. It’s not a diy job unless you know avionics well. If you give us your location you will likely get some shop recs. Once you talk to a shop that’s willing to spend the time to listen, you will find out what you might be in for.
Will.iam Posted February 1 Report Posted February 1 16 hours ago, TBone said: I’m kinda in this situation so I’d appreciate comments…m231 , Aspen pro 1000 MFD and PFD. G430w integrated. KFC200 autopilot with altitude pre-select . JPI830 , SL30 garmin #2 navcom, Garmin gtx335 xponder, flight stream , stratus 3 with iPad on yoke…. Autopilot getting older but still working. Toggle between gpss on and off for rang or heading bug steering. Id like to go digital autopilot but seems daunting … is there any nice option out there for autopilot and 430 replacement? Everything works With an M20K dynon and autopilot are now certified for use and avidyne 440 navigator but that sucker alone is 15amu.
MikeOH Posted February 1 Report Posted February 1 56 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said: The thing is I have no idea how much to expect for someone to go and work on this small items, is it 5 hours, 20hours, 80 hours? And Yeah, that's the question! With your list of items, figuring out what each needs to rectify, taking things apart, likely wiring up new cabling, install, putting everything back together, testing... I could see three full days of tech time; probably more. What's an avionics shop running these days? $200/hour? That's $4,800 minimum without any parts. Is that in the kind of range you were thinking? If you are really happy with the equipment you have and are NOT planning a full panel overhaul in the future, then even $10,000 would be a bargain. But, as @Immelman said, do you really need a fully coupled AP? Or, an 'integrated' DME? I run LOP and know the fuel settings for 65% where I spend most of my time when actually going some where; personally, I don't see a lot of value in having % power constantly displayed. The math is pretty simple if I want to run a different power. An inexpensive plug-into-lighter-socket voltmeter would solve that issue. Frankly, I'd rather have the old analog OAT thermometer that was removed from near the storm window when my G3 was installed! For ammeter, the ship's one has been just fine; how much value does having amps displayed 'electronically' really matter? In an electrical emergency, when you might really want to know your load, that electronic display may be gone; the simplicity of a current shut running to the old simple ammeter is bulletproof. It's not clear to me if you have a fuel flow gauge and totalizer. If not, I would spend the money for that! But, integrating just to achieve 'fuel to destination'...not so much. My EI FP5L displays time remaining, which is what I like to see. As far as fuel gauges I, too, just have the factory ones. Thing is, IMHO, I wouldn't trust the fancy new ones either; I've always been a stick the tanks and use my watch kind of guy Look at how much money I just saved you
skykrawler Posted February 1 Report Posted February 1 (edited) Recommend spending the time to understand the interconnections (current and new) required for your systems. You can find the 275 install manual online - lots of useful info. Presumably the autopilot is active in AP mode when the GS is not being picked up. Some continuity testing might indicate where there is a broken connection. Part of that interconnection with the AP is the FLAG indicating the GS is usable. The Davtron C307Ps OAT probe is probably compatible with the 275 - and is cheaper than the Garmin probe. Generally, the DME receiver gets the tuned NAV frequency from the NAV radio. Depending on the receiver there may be a switch to select #1 or #2 nav for the input. The 430w has provisions for different connections (serial for example - if you have a King DME). It looks like the 275 supports 430w inputs with Rs-232 (MAPMX format) or ARINC 439 (ports 1..4, GAMA bus definition) The 275 shunt configuration is selectable and may be able to use the existing shunt. Of course it will have to be wired. Edited February 1 by skykrawler
Fritz1 Posted February 1 Report Posted February 1 Do continuity testing and learn your system the best way you can, find an avionics shop that to work with that helps you figure out what you can't figure out by yourself. The GS has 4 wires: Deviation +/- , Flag +/- , one of them is most likely interrupted somewhere and not connected to the autopilot, typically 4 wires come out of the 430W and there is splice so 4 wires go to HSI and 4 wires go to autopilot. That splice would be my primary suspect and is probably buried deep in the harness, impossible to get to, this stuff can take quite some time to debug, ask me how I know... May be easier to run 8 wires directly from the 430W tray. Taking the radio stack out and taking one of the 430W connectors apart, miniature Garmin pins, shielding, crimping tools, soldering in tight spaces, heating shrink tubing, tucking everything away so it does not get caught or break, best done by somebody who has done it for a living for quite some time...
redbaron1982 Posted February 2 Author Report Posted February 2 Thanks, y'all for the responses and ideas. I think the higest priority is the flying couple approaches with vertical guidance. Also, reading at another post, I think it would be really cool to add GPSS, as it sounds like a great bang for the buck, specially to fly holding patterns. Any recommendation of a good shop in the houston area? I'm based in KSGR. 1
1980Mooney Posted February 2 Report Posted February 2 50 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said: Thanks, y'all for the responses and ideas. I think the higest priority is the flying couple approaches with vertical guidance. Also, reading at another post, I think it would be really cool to add GPSS, as it sounds like a great bang for the buck, specially to fly holding patterns. Any recommendation of a good shop in the houston area? I'm based in KSGR. I will send you a PM.
McMooney Posted February 2 Report Posted February 2 1 hour ago, redbaron1982 said: Thanks, y'all for the responses and ideas. I think the higest priority is the flying couple approaches with vertical guidance. Also, reading at another post, I think it would be really cool to add GPSS, as it sounds like a great bang for the buck, specially to fly holding patterns. Any recommendation of a good shop in the houston area? I'm based in KSGR. Brian @ KAXH, Marshall does good work Dewayne Jones mobile Houston I just had my autopilot and gps/nav/comm done at CAM avionics @ KFWS, i know not houston, but not horribly far. i'm also at ksgr btw
icurnmedic Posted February 2 Report Posted February 2 2 g3x, a Garmin 650, gfc500 AP, remote audio and transponder, installed is north of 100k. I would use what you can as long as you can. I didn’t read all the responses but man I do love the garmin ap! 1
theplanesalon Posted February 2 Report Posted February 2 To address OP’s question, the KFC150 is typically tied to a KCS55a with a number of lines duplexes into the kfc- and some of those may be compromised. the GI275 and GNS430 sounds like it may be a configuration and a port issue. OATs don’t take long to install. I’m surprised voltage isn’t showing - it’s one of the primary connections on the EIS: Our avionics shop rate is $140 in beautiful Southern California. We just finished another Dynon install with 3 screens (2 10” and a 7”) driven by an Avidyne 550 and a Trio AP with a Trig Panel Comm and transponder. Dynon can be driven by just about any GPS/Nav Comm. Separately, the HDX comes with a VFR GPS integrated antenna. It’s super easy to swap between the internal GPS to the external GPSs on the dynon touch screens to drive the HSI. When customers realize that ADSB-in runs about 1AMU, the engine monitoring runs a little north of 2, and IFR integration runs around .5 AMU, many lean towards Dynon. It is extraordinarily capable at a fraction of the Garmin price, and not everyone clamors for “auto land.” Now that the autopilot has been released for Mooneys, Bos and Cessnas, it’s an option worth visiting. We have a J model getting 2 10” and a Dynon autopilot driven by Avidyne that just came in, with a K model right behind it. Pardon the crappy picture taken of the lance… 2
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