NEW NEWS FROM LASAR AND MOONEY AS OF 10/2/2025

[Rick Junkin]

56 minutes ago, hazek said:

How can it be so difficult to transfer manufacturing to modern practices? Are regulations really that stiff and the process to obtain approval that cumbersome and slow? I'm pretty sure any decent shop manufacturing parts could manufacture any part for our planes. Where's the catch? And why doesn't someone just do this?

If you do an internet search on "what does it take to receive FAA PMA authority" you'll find the information and reference data that will help answer your questions.

In addition to cumbersome and slow, the process is expensive, especially for a shop that doesn't already have a documented formal quality assurance program. And that assumes the shop can obtain the production engineering data from the original manufacturer, or have the capability to reverse engineer the data to the FAA's satisfaction.

Then there is the cost/benefit analysis that accompanies any business decision. Economy of scale is difficult or impossible to realize in our niche market, so a business needs to recoup all of the administrative, testing, tooling and setup costs in the price they charge for the limited quantity of end product. This price needs to allow the manufacturer to be profitable while remaining affordable for the end customer. We've just seen this with new production of no-back springs for the gear actuators. Affordability is in the eye of the consumer. And altruism isn't a trait commonly found in significant measure in a successful business, so if in the C&B analysis the part(s) can't be produced at a cost that allows for an affordable price, it doesn't get produced.

 

[1980Mooney]

3 hours ago, Schllc said:

…..and a 30% across the board raise in prices, is barely even keeping up with the inflation we have seen the last several years. 

That sounds exactly like what Arcline/Hartzell and other various Private Equity that are consolidating General Aviation businesses & FBO’s think and say….

Edited 20 hours ago by 1980Mooney

[WheelPantsOff]

Parts support, combined with the aging out of the ownership population, will be the death of this brand.

[hazek]

48 minutes ago, Rick Junkin said:

so if in the C&B analysis the part(s) can't be produced at a cost that allows for an affordable price, it doesn't get produced.

Sure that makes sense.

49 minutes ago, Rick Junkin said:

If you do an internet search on "what does it take to receive FAA PMA authority" you'll find the information and reference data that will help answer your questions.

In addition to cumbersome and slow, the process is expensive

This less so. In today's age with computers, especially now with quite useful AI this paperwork stuff should be an easy problem. Perhaps it's not attempted by people who excel in this sort of stuff but by people that are savvy in other relevant areas. Hopefully Lasar knows how to get these steps done cheaply enough so that the manufacturing process itself can be feasible. This parts problem is another huge concern of mine regarding the future, like AVGAS phase out, that makes me very motivated to only think about how I should find a way to drive a turbine Piper asap.

[Rick Junkin]

15 minutes ago, hazek said:

This less so. In today's age with computers, especially now with quite useful AI this paperwork stuff should be an easy problem. Perhaps it's not attempted by people who excel in this sort of stuff but by people that are savvy in other relevant areas.

Once you take the time to research the process, and the FAA requirements and involvement, it will make more sense to you. What "should/could be" and what "is" are two completely different things. Change/streamlining of the FAA process will not happen quickly or through actions or abilities of the users of the system. Until the FAA formally changes the PMA requirements and approval process, no amount of technical savvy on the part of an applicant will make any difference in the time or expense required to accomplish the process.

[Fritz1]

during annual in March we discovered a small elevator bellcrank that caused excessive play between the elevator halves, small handmade part riveted together from three sheet metal plates, bushing, bearing the whole thing about 4" long. As a quick and legal fix we replaced the loose hylock fastenters with monel rivets. Consensus was that this part would be $2500 to replace if it were a Beechcraft part. The Mooney part had a lead time of 13 weeks and a price of $800. When I got the part I was amazed, Mooney had re-engineered the part to be integrally milled in one piece. No doubt they lost money on that part.

Soo, parts prices will go up because they have to.

About the same time I was approached by an MSC wondering if I was ready to fund parts production at Mooney with a fixed amount per year, lots of questions, nothing ever came of it and now Lasar stepped in.

Problem still remains, parts production needs to be funded to build up inventory, by how much? probably by the amount of 6 months of parts sales.

So, instead of moping, who is ready to step in? 300 owners at $3000 a pop makes $900k, enough the get things moving funds to be released to Lasar and/or Mooney for inventory buildup by a board of the the 3 largest donors? The whole thing blows up, guess what fonds perdu as the French say.

In the end gotta pay the piper!

Whoever is interested in being part of the solution, please pm me. 

 

[hazek]

24 minutes ago, Fritz1 said:

So, instead of moping, who is ready to step in? 300 owners at $3000 a pop makes $900k, enough the get things moving funds to be released to Lasar and/or Mooney for inventory buildup by a board of the the 3 largest donors?

If this would guarantee me parts when I need them, no problem! Sign me up.

30 minutes ago, Rick Junkin said:

Change/streamlining of the FAA process will not happen quickly or through actions or abilities of the users of the system.

I wonder if this is a factual statement. Perhaps it matters how documentation is submitted. I have no idea but just going off of my personal anecdotal experience in life that when I need to pass through a bureaucratic process I seem to have less difficulty than others when I come with well prepared documentation. Perhaps this is an exception but, like I say, I wonder if that's really true.

[Schllc]

3 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

That sounds exactly like what Arcline/Hartzell and other various Private Equity that are consolidating General Aviation businesses & FBO’s think and say….

What isn’t 30% more expensive that it was in 2020?

Most things are a lot more than 30%!  
Everything in the grocery store is double or more, and they have cut portion sizes. 
 

[jetdriven]

But the prices have gone up 40% since pre-Covid so I’m not totally sold on this. I guess when the door seal gets to be $500 we can talk about it again. All of the price increases by the Hartzell family of companies (Arcline) was not related to supply and demand. 

[Paul Thomas]

5 hours ago, Sabremech said:

@cliffy ruddervator skins are now available for V-tail Bonanzas from SRS Aviation. They are also selling them for LESS than when they were last available from Beechcraft. Hmmm??  
What? Less? How can that be? 

Beechcraft has a better owner group than we do. They are organized and pooled their money to offer over $500,000 to a company could would produce new ruddervator below certain price point. 

[MikeOH]

Well, I don't know about better, but there are nearly twice as many Bonanzas as M20s...I would think that fact alone helps with the economics of part production!

[Sabremech]

2 hours ago, Paul Thomas said:

Beechcraft has a better owner group than we do. They are organized and pooled their money to offer over $500,000 to a company could would produce new ruddervator below certain price point. 

Once $28K came from ABS. The other $500K came from an estate specifically for overcoming the ruddervator skin issue.

Maybe we need to form the American Mooney Society and as a group of owners and maintainers tackle our most pressing problems. Have the AMS work the parts that are needed and not available at true cost to the members. It could be setup as a not for profit entity for the benefit of its members.

@cliffy  Care to try something different than the promises generated by AI from LASAR? 

[LANCECASPER]

6 hours ago, WheelPantsOff said:

Parts support, combined with the aging out of the ownership population, will be the death of this brand.

There are a lot of salvage Mooneys for donor parts - crashed airplanes and neglected airplanes. 

[IvanP]

8 hours ago, hazek said:

Sure that makes sense.

 This parts problem is another huge concern of mine regarding the future, like AVGAS phase out, that makes me very motivated to only think about how I should find a way to drive a turbine Piper asap.

That is easy...just write a big check. We are complaining about part costs...how about replacing hot section of turbine  

[Hank]

12 minutes ago, IvanP said:

We are complaining about part costs...how about replacing hot section of turbine  

That's a lot easier than buying the whole turbine to begin with, isn't it?

[cliffy]

5 hours ago, Sabremech said:

Once $28K came from ABS. The other $500K came from an estate specifically for overcoming the ruddervator skin issue.

Maybe we need to form the American Mooney Society and as a group of owners and maintainers tackle our most pressing problems. Have the AMS work the parts that are needed and not available at true cost to the members. It could be setup as a not for profit entity for the benefit of its members.

@cliffy  Care to try something different than the promises generated by AI from LASAR? 

Not really.  Just the start up costs to set up the PMA system and then engineer the parts from scratch, as we wouldn't have access to the original drawings, would negate any profitability even before the first part was started, with, in reality, what would be a market of something less than 7000 (because not every Mooney will need every part)-  And, even a non-profit has to cover expenses

Besides I'm way too old to start something like that.

It is what it is. Pay the piper or sell out and buy a  Piper (or Cirrus) :-)   There are no viable alternatives

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, cliffy said:

It is what it is. Pay the piper or sell out and buy a  Piper (or Cirrus) :-)   There are no viable alternatives

WOW!  And I thought I was the cynic!

There are plenty of alternatives, they are just ones that have not previously made economic sense when Mooney was an actual factory and going business concern.  Now that it is not, and the fleet is shrinking to a volume level that will no longer support factory parts without actual aircraft production those alternatives will become more common.  Namely, salvage and OPP.  Some simpler parts may see PMA, but only those with low engineering and production cost.

I predict that the Mooney owner market will bifurcate into those with enough money to 'pay the piper' (LASAR) and those who will shift to salvage/OPP.  Some will, as you allude, just sell and move to another better supported aircraft.  This is not an unprecedented progression in the life of any product; especially one that has been around for over six decades!  Eventually, like other now 'rare' makes, there will remain only a few airworthy 'museum pieces'.  How many Beech Staggerwings remain?  Yet, those that do still manage to 'find' parts, one way or another.