Echo Posted Monday at 05:10 PM Report Posted Monday at 05:10 PM 1 hour ago, Greg_D said: I actually saw some a couple of years ago selling for exactly those prices. I'll see if I can find pictures! So you knew the answer (in your mind), but wanted some cofirmatory "support"? O.K., carry on living in your world. Hell, it sounds great. It's only money. Go for it. Sounds like a steal as equipped. I think $170k is a great deal. Don't let it get sold out from under you. Act fast. Enjoy your beautiful new to you bird.
Hamburglar Posted Monday at 05:19 PM Report Posted Monday at 05:19 PM I bought an E model similar to what you're describing although the one you are describing sounds like it may have a few more mods than mine and would be happy to tell you my thought process if would like. 1
Echo Posted Monday at 05:24 PM Report Posted Monday at 05:24 PM 1 minute ago, Hamburglar said: I bought an E model similar to what you're describing although the one you are describing sounds like it may have a few more mods than mine and would be happy to tell you my thought process if would like. Definately keep it on the D.L. What is it some kind of secret club? What did you pay for it? Not understanding this. He asked for validation so ya he AND I and others would be interested in "your thought process".
Greg_D Posted Monday at 05:31 PM Author Report Posted Monday at 05:31 PM 16 minutes ago, Echo said: So you knew the answer (in your mind), but wanted some cofirmatory "support"? O.K., carry on living in your world. Hell, it sounds great. It's only money. Go for it. Sounds like a steal as equipped. I think $170k is a great deal. Don't let it get sold out from under you. Act fast. Enjoy your beautiful new to you bird. No need to be like that! I said it was a few years ago, maybe 4 or 5. I was just wondering how much the market had changed since then since I haven't been looking. And a few people have DM'd me with the information I was looking for....without being snarky! 1
Echo Posted Monday at 06:02 PM Report Posted Monday at 06:02 PM 27 minutes ago, Greg_D said: No need to be like that! I said it was a few years ago, maybe 4 or 5. I was just wondering how much the market had changed since then since I haven't been looking. And a few people have DM'd me with the information I was looking for....without being snarky! Ya I am being snarky. Big secrets on pricing. To what end says I? Glad your down low validation is coming through. Perish the thought of being open and honest on the ask vs. what price is REALLY paid...which ultimately would provide real value to current buyers AND sellers. Done participating on the thread. Enjoy your "private" intel. ;(
Greg_D Posted Monday at 06:32 PM Author Report Posted Monday at 06:32 PM 29 minutes ago, Echo said: Ya I am being snarky. Big secrets on pricing. To what end says I? Glad your down low validation is coming through. Perish the thought of being open and honest on the ask vs. what price is REALLY paid...which ultimately would provide real value to current buyers AND sellers. Done participating on the thread. Enjoy your "private" intel. ;( Don't let the door hit you on the way out! 4
KSMooniac Posted Monday at 07:00 PM Report Posted Monday at 07:00 PM I think there is a SMALL market for an "over-improved" E or F, and the right buyer will recognize value in one with an asking price that stands above the field and even flirts with J territory. I say that as an 18+ year owner of a '77 J that was looking for a modified E or F originally, but stretched to get into my J and I'm happy I did. It is of course entirely possible to modify an E or F to mimic a J in just about every meaningful way, but they will never be a true J in the market, and thus the value will always hit a ceiling. The debate here, IMO, comes down to value for the dollar and for the right buyer (like Greg in this case) it might make more sense to buy an over-improved $150k E vs. a $150k J. Greg certainly knows the Mooney line and he stated his mission is 2 people + bags and moderate distance flying, not all the way across the country since he can just hop on a company plane and do that now. In this case, a $150k E that has been thoroughly modernized with a panel full of Garmin including a GFC500 autopilot done by a meticulous owner/IA, yet still retains the awesome J-bar gear so he doesn't have to fret about actuator gears and other tidbits I'm thinking about. It has all of the J exterior mods so it is likely faster than my plane too. Comparing to my early J, I've done all of the exterior mods/upgrades to later specs and have an awesome paint job. I've got nice Bravo seats (including rear buckets instead of the bench), good windows and sidewalls, but I have a vintage panel + GNS530W/430W and STEC30 autopilot. I'm insured for $175k but wouldn't sell it for that if asked. I still have things I want to do like the panel, primarily. For Greg's mission, I'd say he's getting a turnkey simple speedster that meets his needs for quite a bit less than he could get my J without a modern panel, and a whole lot less for another J with a modern panel. There is also an adage to consider that you're buying the previous owner as much as the plane itself, and in this case, that is a very good thing! Having said that, a J offers more potential utility/flexibility due to more cabin space, and especially if you can take one or both back seats out. It comes down to how much that utility is worth it to you... would you pay $50k more for a truly equivalent J vs. a modernized E? If you never put people in back, why pay more? I'd rather take that extra money and buy a toy plane to add to the hangar. 3
TheAv8r Posted Monday at 07:16 PM Report Posted Monday at 07:16 PM 15 minutes ago, KSMooniac said: I think there is a SMALL market for an "over-improved" E or F, and the right buyer will recognize value in one with an asking price that stands above the field and even flirts with J territory. I say that as an 18+ year owner of a '77 J that was looking for a modified E or F originally, but stretched to get into my J and I'm happy I did. It is of course entirely possible to modify an E or F to mimic a J in just about every meaningful way, but they will never be a true J in the market, and thus the value will always hit a ceiling. The debate here, IMO, comes down to value for the dollar and for the right buyer (like Greg in this case) it might make more sense to buy an over-improved $150k E vs. a $150k J. Greg certainly knows the Mooney line and he stated his mission is 2 people + bags and moderate distance flying, not all the way across the country since he can just hop on a company plane and do that now. In this case, a $150k E that has been thoroughly modernized with a panel full of Garmin including a GFC500 autopilot done by a meticulous owner/IA, yet still retains the awesome J-bar gear so he doesn't have to fret about actuator gears and other tidbits I'm thinking about. It has all of the J exterior mods so it is likely faster than my plane too. Comparing to my early J, I've done all of the exterior mods/upgrades to later specs and have an awesome paint job. I've got nice Bravo seats (including rear buckets instead of the bench), good windows and sidewalls, but I have a vintage panel + GNS530W/430W and STEC30 autopilot. I'm insured for $175k but wouldn't sell it for that if asked. I still have things I want to do like the panel, primarily. For Greg's mission, I'd say he's getting a turnkey simple speedster that meets his needs for quite a bit less than he could get my J without a modern panel, and a whole lot less for another J with a modern panel. There is also an adage to consider that you're buying the previous owner as much as the plane itself, and in this case, that is a very good thing! Having said that, a J offers more potential utility/flexibility due to more cabin space, and especially if you can take one or both back seats out. It comes down to how much that utility is worth it to you... would you pay $50k more for a truly equivalent J vs. a modernized E? If you never put people in back, why pay more? I'd rather take that extra money and buy a toy plane to add to the hangar. Well-put! This was exactly my point, but put better . 2
Flyler Posted Monday at 08:12 PM Report Posted Monday at 08:12 PM 20 hours ago, Greg_D said: I'm trying to justify in my mind purchasing a sweet, fully loaded M20E. I know there's a point of diminishing returns when upgrading the avionics on an older airplane like this, but I was curious what others thought the upper end of the price range a knowledgable buyer would stretch to. I can post a picture of the panel if it would help. And the airframe has pretty much all of the mods available (201 cowling, windshield, spinner, etc.). There's a guy in California that is getting his E model back up and running to sell. If you're looking for a hotrod E model, it's a really nice contender. The avionics are a bit dated (GNS430 era) but it has an STEC30 autopilot. It has some issues- about 10 years ago he pickled/oiled the motor and put it up on jacks. It's a project! Basically all the J mods. Cowl, wind screen, J motor (yes, the dual mag), all the LASAR stuff, like ALL of it. STC's you can't get any more. He has a RayJay turbo-kit but has not installed it. White and baby blue paint scheme. If you want I can connect the two of you. I do not know him well, but we did spend a few hours on the phone chatting about his plane. It seemed like a really cool plane for someone to get up and running.
Greg_D Posted Monday at 10:16 PM Author Report Posted Monday at 10:16 PM (edited) 2 hours ago, Flyler said: There's a guy in California that is getting his E model back up and running to sell. If you're looking for a hotrod E model, it's a really nice contender. The avionics are a bit dated (GNS430 era) but it has an STEC30 autopilot. It has some issues- about 10 years ago he pickled/oiled the motor and put it up on jacks. It's a project! Basically all the J mods. Cowl, wind screen, J motor (yes, the dual mag), all the LASAR stuff, like ALL of it. STC's you can't get any more. He has a RayJay turbo-kit but has not installed it. White and baby blue paint scheme. If you want I can connect the two of you. I do not know him well, but we did spend a few hours on the phone chatting about his plane. It seemed like a really cool plane for someone to get up and running. Thanks. Not looking for a project at this point. I want something turn-key or pretty close to it... Edited Monday at 10:17 PM by Greg_D 1
joemoriss Posted Monday at 11:32 PM Report Posted Monday at 11:32 PM I've been flying my 1964 M20E for a few years now, it has a decent interior, decent paint, mid time engine (about 900 hours now) low time airframe (under 2000). I upgraded it with dual GI-275s and a GNC 355 gps. It's an awesome plane, no speed mods and engine is in good mechanical shape. I have it insured for $75k though at this point it's probably worth a bit more. Last time I checked Jimmy from GMax's value guide that was about right. That being said, if someone were to tell me it was actually worth quite a bit more I would definitely not complain! 1
Greg_D Posted yesterday at 12:01 AM Author Report Posted yesterday at 12:01 AM 4 hours ago, KSMooniac said: I think there is a SMALL market for an "over-improved" E or F, and the right buyer will recognize value in one with an asking price that stands above the field and even flirts with J territory. I say that as an 18+ year owner of a '77 J that was looking for a modified E or F originally, but stretched to get into my J and I'm happy I did. It is of course entirely possible to modify an E or F to mimic a J in just about every meaningful way, but they will never be a true J in the market, and thus the value will always hit a ceiling. The debate here, IMO, comes down to value for the dollar and for the right buyer (like Greg in this case) it might make more sense to buy an over-improved $150k E vs. a $150k J. Greg certainly knows the Mooney line and he stated his mission is 2 people + bags and moderate distance flying, not all the way across the country since he can just hop on a company plane and do that now. In this case, a $150k E that has been thoroughly modernized with a panel full of Garmin including a GFC500 autopilot done by a meticulous owner/IA, yet still retains the awesome J-bar gear so he doesn't have to fret about actuator gears and other tidbits I'm thinking about. It has all of the J exterior mods so it is likely faster than my plane too. Comparing to my early J, I've done all of the exterior mods/upgrades to later specs and have an awesome paint job. I've got nice Bravo seats (including rear buckets instead of the bench), good windows and sidewalls, but I have a vintage panel + GNS530W/430W and STEC30 autopilot. I'm insured for $175k but wouldn't sell it for that if asked. I still have things I want to do like the panel, primarily. For Greg's mission, I'd say he's getting a turnkey simple speedster that meets his needs for quite a bit less than he could get my J without a modern panel, and a whole lot less for another J with a modern panel. There is also an adage to consider that you're buying the previous owner as much as the plane itself, and in this case, that is a very good thing! Having said that, a J offers more potential utility/flexibility due to more cabin space, and especially if you can take one or both back seats out. It comes down to how much that utility is worth it to you... would you pay $50k more for a truly equivalent J vs. a modernized E? If you never put people in back, why pay more? I'd rather take that extra money and buy a toy plane to add to the hangar. Well put Scott, especially the part about it being a good fit for the “right” buyer. A private pilot with no instrument rating who is flying on a basic med and can’t fly at night or IFR probably isn’t the right pilot for this type of plane anyway. No surprise that they wouldn’t see any value in it! 1 1
MikeOH Posted yesterday at 12:24 AM Report Posted yesterday at 12:24 AM 19 minutes ago, Greg_D said: Well put Scott, especially the part about it being a good fit for the “right” buyer. A private pilot with no instrument rating who is flying on a basic med and can’t fly at night or IFR probably isn’t the right pilot for this type of plane anyway. No surprise that they wouldn’t see any value in it! Not sure what you were trying to say, but you can most certainly fly at night and IFR (with an IA rating, of course) on Basic Med.
hammdo Posted yesterday at 01:24 AM Report Posted yesterday at 01:24 AM I’m on basic med, instrument rated, and I also fly at night - just not above 18,000 feet ;o) Got my IR on Basic Med - no prob… -Son 2
Jackk Posted yesterday at 01:35 AM Report Posted yesterday at 01:35 AM 10 hours ago, Echo said: 140,000 to 160,000 for an M20E? Show me this buyer. I simply do not believe it. Let that individual come on here and tell me he spent $140-$160,000 buying an M20E. The M20E does not, in the real world, command the sale price that M20J does. I know people that own M20E's put a lot of money into updating them. That is a labor of love. I have yet to hear of them selling the plane for $140-160k... It’s like the guys who get a PA12 and spend tons to “supercub it”, issue is when they get near the value of a PA18 as no one with any sense is going to spend 18 money to buy a 12. Ultimately is will always be what it is
Jackk Posted yesterday at 01:38 AM Report Posted yesterday at 01:38 AM 11 hours ago, Greg_D said: I guess you didn't read the description further up in the thread! The work has already been done! I missed that. In that case, as HRC once said "What difference at this point does it make?" *not a fan of her, but she had some good sound bites ;) 2
Greg_D Posted yesterday at 02:26 AM Author Report Posted yesterday at 02:26 AM 1 hour ago, MikeOH said: Not sure what you were trying to say, but you can most certainly fly at night and IFR (with an IA rating, of course) on Basic Med. Sorry, didn't mean to conflate the two. I'm aware that you can fly at night and IFR with a basic med. But you can't fly IFR without the instrument rating and you can't fly at night if you're color blind and have a limitation on your medical... 2 1
Greg_D Posted yesterday at 02:28 AM Author Report Posted yesterday at 02:28 AM 1 hour ago, hammdo said: I’m on basic med, instrument rated, and I also fly at night - just not above 18,000 feet ;o) Got my IR on Basic Med - no prob… -Son See my response to Mike above...
Greg_D Posted yesterday at 02:34 AM Author Report Posted yesterday at 02:34 AM 56 minutes ago, Jackk said: It’s like the guys who get a PA12 and spend tons to “supercub it”, issue is when they get near the value of a PA18 as no one with any sense is going to spend 18 money to buy a 12. Ultimately is will always be what it is Very true. One of the ones I mentioned earlier sold for $125K about 4 or 5 years ago . I think the paint and yokes are about the only thing nicer on this one compared to what I'm looking at... 3
Echo Posted yesterday at 02:35 AM Report Posted yesterday at 02:35 AM 2 hours ago, Greg_D said: Well put Scott, especially the part about it being a good fit for the “right” buyer. A private pilot with no instrument rating who is flying on a basic med and can’t fly at night or IFR probably isn’t the right pilot for this type of plane anyway. No surprise that they wouldn’t see any value in it! Ha ha, stalker alert. Stay classy. No doubt you are a 100% superior pilot and all around better human being than I. Congrats on that.
Echo Posted yesterday at 02:39 AM Report Posted yesterday at 02:39 AM 13 hours ago, Greg_D said: Let's see. I've been flying for 43 years. Owned 4 different Mooneys (C, F, G, and R) with about 3,500 hours in them total. Used to ferry them for Don Maxwell and Jimmy G, so I've flown them all, except for the M22. Currently a 737 captain at a major airline and I'll be retiring in a few years. I currently have an Ovation, but rarely fly it for the designed mission. I can count the number of times I've filled all 4 seats in the 20 years that I've owned it on both hands. I used to travel all over the country in the O, so the range was nice. It's at the point where the plane needs new avionics and a new or rebuilt engine. So that started me looking and I found an opportunity with this E model. The E's performance definitely meets my mission profile more these days... The E that I'm looking at had a good panel to begin with. It was updated in the 2002-2008 timeframe with a SWTA panel and everything current on the market then. As mentioned earlier, the current owner is an A&P IA and an electronics wiz. His work is meticulous. Lives on an air park, so he took the time and did it right. The documentation on all of the work done is incredible. This wasn't an "avionics shop sales job". Everything was well thought out and executed. He knows that he isn't going to get out what he put into it. Anyway, I was just curious what others thought about the market value. I see quite a few of these vintage planes on the market and they are listed at some crazy prices, some are north of $160K! In cased you missed it he has a really impressive bio. Just ask and he will tell you all about it.
Jackk Posted yesterday at 03:55 AM Report Posted yesterday at 03:55 AM 1 hour ago, Echo said: In cased you missed it he has a really impressive bio. Just ask and he will tell you all about it. He flew a light twin
DCarlton Posted yesterday at 04:06 AM Report Posted yesterday at 04:06 AM Heres a question I’ve wondered for some time. Which aircraft would be easier to maintain over the next decade, a 1997 J or a 1967 F with J mods. Which one has the higher risk of being grounded due to parts availability? They made a lot of Fs in the mid-late 60s. I’ve always thought I’d have a good shot at salvage parts if necessary.
ArtVandelay Posted 22 hours ago Report Posted 22 hours ago Heres a question I’ve wondered for some time. Which aircraft would be easier to maintain over the next decade, a 1997 J or a 1967 F with J mods. Which one has the higher risk of being grounded due to parts availability? They made a lot of Fs in the mid-late 60s. I’ve always thought I’d have a good shot at salvage parts if necessary. Both have gear actuators (most Js have the Eaton which is I think still supported), ailerons, various interior components, etc.J has the annunciator box, but this can be removed if you lose the vacuum pump and install a certified engine monitor. Ram air can be removed as well.There are a lot of Fs, but way more Js.Don’t forget Js are more than just speed mods, Js have the improved air intake (that’s why the ram air isn’t needed) and other features depending on year of manufacture.
DCarlton Posted 12 hours ago Report Posted 12 hours ago 9 hours ago, ArtVandelay said: Both have gear actuators (most Js have the Eaton which is I think still supported), ailerons, various interior components, etc. J has the annunciator box, but this can be removed if you lose the vacuum pump and install a certified engine monitor. Ram air can be removed as well. There are a lot of Fs, but way more Js. Don’t forget Js are more than just speed mods, Js have the improved air intake (that’s why the ram air isn’t needed) and other features depending on year of manufacture. I've never tallied the J numbers; only looked at peak production periods in the mid to late 60's. For the J's, what were the significant configuration changes that occurred between 77 to 98 other than interior components, wingtips, the throttle quadrant, that would impact parts availability. I've never seen a parts compatibility list. Other than tribal knowledge, gotta wonder if LASAR or Mooney has a detailed cross reference listing. I'm particularly curious about the Mooney's built in the 90s and whether there have any "special" or very limited production parts. Other than a Predator :>, a perfect late 90's J would probably be my dream Mooney choice.
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