Logbook Page Removed and not Disclosed - Criminal Misrepresentation?

[M20GforMe]

I bought my first plane last year and made the mistake of not having a prebuy done (huge mistake). I did ask to schedule a prebuy, and the person who was representing the plane basically said that two other people were interested and if I wanted to do a prebuy, I would lose the plane (This is also on me and I know it, I was excited to buy my first plane, I was trying to spend the money before the year ended for tax purposes, and the pilot that I bought it from was flying it with his kids and wife in it when he dropped it off, so I had assumed it was safe). I had asked for the logbooks before purchasing and a digital copy was sent to me that I made the purchase based off of. The problem I'm running into is that the plane is in for its first annual, and its a heavy bill. It was in annual when I purchased it, and I'm wondering if the last A&P who signed off on it should be pursued also. I'm not the type to legally pursue anyone, but I'm contemplating if it's justified here.

The terrible things that came out of annual - corrosion, the alternator had been replaced with an automotive alternator, the fuel filters were replaced with automotive fuel filters, all the wheels were beyond repair, etc. I was willing to deal with these and the fact that the annual was up to almost $30k. The compressions were all strong when we started the annual and so at least I had a strong engine. Well that changed too when the rockers were being replaced and the engine would not mount to the replacement rockers. The crankcase had apparently been milled beyond tolerance and will have to be sent out for an IRAN at a minimum.

This is also when the A&P told me that there was a page that had been ripped out of the engine logbook right before its last overhaul, which was of course not disclosed in the logbooks that were sent to me over email that we bought the plane based off of.

So questions

1) Is there a legal case for misrepresentation of an aircraft here with the evidence of pages being ripped out (A&P sent me photos showing where the page was torn, and I have the logbook copies that were emailed to me when we were looking at the plane that don't show any evidence or mention of torn pages).

2) What type of lawyer would I be seeking to take on this case If I did want to pursue the seller and the person that was acting as a broker. They are both pilots, I'm not sure either is registered as a broker

3) How do we properly go after the A&P that signed off on this as being airworthy when it clearly should not have been, I'm not sure what else he is putting out that is not safe to fly in.

PS - I messaged the previous owner and he of course was not happy with being accused of selling a non-airworthy airplane. He asked what he would gain by ripping a page out of log book, etc. Obviously this makes the engine log incomplete, I assume this would also reduce the value of the plane It's the page directly before the last overhaul if that makes a difference. The owner also said that I should look up the STC before accusing him of using an automotive alternator, but the alternator had a carquest logo on it, and I assume that would in no way be approved, especially since my A&P said it needed to be replaced.

Edited Tuesday at 09:10 PM by M20GforMe
spelling/clarity

[EricJ]

4 minutes ago, M20GforMe said:

1) Is there a legal case for misrepresentation of an aircraft here with the evidence of pages being ripped out (A&P sent me photos showing where the page was torn, and I have the logbook copies that were emailed to me when we were looking at the plane that don't show any evidence or mention of torn pages).

What are the dates on the surrounding pages?    Records older than a year are not required to be kept.   There is no regulatory requirement to keep maintenance records older than one year.   Records are also not required to be kept in "logbooks" or even in paper or whatever.    The records that are required are just required to be kept as records.   They can be written on used napkins as far as the regs are concerned.   If the record was older than a year I don't know what basis you'd have for pursuing action against anyone.

 

 

[M20GforMe]

The logbook entry was more than a year old. Would the plane technically only have "partial logs" at this point? Would it be wrong for me to sell the plane (in the future, no intentions to sell now) as having complete logs if a page is torn out? I would feel better about it if I knew what the page had listed. Considering its right before an overhaul, it must be something notable?

On another note - considering it appears the last A&P was not doing due diligence on the plane when doing annuals, is there a report we should be filing? This is more of a concern of general safety than it is about anything to gain for me. It appears to my A&P and I that he just signs off on the annual without doing his due dilligence of making sure the aircraft is actually airworthy

[takair]

Regarding log book, it is possible that there was nothing on missing pages or it was an error.  I have seen logs….have some for one of my own plane, where pages are crossed out because they were intended for the engine log and were entered in error.  I can imagine e a situation where they tore out the error not thinking it would look bad.  As someone suggested, what is on the adjacent pages?  Is there a logical gap in history.  
 

I won’t speak to the legal, but these threads usually trend bad for the poster….just a consideration early in the thread.

[M20GforMe]

Understood that it may not go well for me, transparently, I don’t want to be litigious or unduly get anyone in any level of trouble that’s unfounded. My A&P found it very suspicious, especially since the next page was an engine rebuild with the engine nowhere close to TBO. I just don’t want to have been “intentionally screwed”. I know I’m guilty for not having done the full prebuy by a trusted shop. I’m gonna have to fall on the sword (wallet) for that. 

[MikeOH]

I feel for you, but from what you have described, this is going to be an expensive lesson, I'm afraid.  I'm definitely NOT a lawyer but I'm not seeing anything here that you are going to be able to prove.  You will spend a FORTUNE on an investigation and lawyers with very little chance of ever obtaining satisfactory compensation.

No, the logs aren't 'complete' but it's going to be near impossible to put a value on them.  The older the plane the less it's going to matter.  Not having engine records BEFORE an overhaul wouldn't matter much to me, anyway. But that's just me.

This was a 'buyer beware'/as-is sale as far as I can see.

[EricJ]

15 minutes ago, M20GforMe said:

The logbook entry was more than a year old. Would the plane technically only have "partial logs" at this point?

If you have maintenance records back a full year, AD history, STC paperwork, etc., basically everything that is actually required by the regs, then you aren't missing anything.

The only place where "missing records" creates an issue is with a buyer using it to try to negotiate a reduced price from a seller.    It is strictly a percieved value issue.

15 minutes ago, M20GforMe said:

Would it be wrong for me to sell the plane (in the future, no intentions to sell now) as having complete logs if a page is torn out? I would feel better about it if I knew what the page had listed. Considering its right before an overhaul, it must be something notable?

If you have the records required by regulation, everything else is just used for negotiation, so do with it what you will.   As already mentioned, that page may have been taken out due to a coffee spill or whatever other reason.  

15 minutes ago, M20GforMe said:

On another note - considering it appears the last A&P was not doing due diligence on the plane when doing annuals, is there a report we should be filing? This is more of a concern of general safety than it is about anything to gain for me. It appears to my A&P and I that he just signs off on the annual without doing his due dilligence of making sure the aircraft is actually airworthy

If you're basing all of this on input from your current A&P, you're only hearing one side of the story.    You'd probably hear something completely different from the other A&P.    Don't get caught in the middle or to one side.   This can happen to a new aircraft owner and it can wind up being very expensive if you don't take your time, proceed slowly, and get additional opinions.   GA airplane alternators are often based on automotive alternators (if not direct appropriations) and if the installation on your airplane is an STC it is possible that you have the correct alternator.   As you were previously advised, look at any relevant STCs before making too many conclusions. 

 

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, M20GforMe said:

I bought my first plane last year and made the mistake of not having a prebuy done (huge mistake)……

The terrible things that came out of annual - corrosion, ….

Can you elaborate? On Steel fuselage frame, engine mount, landing gear members, control rods? Structural aluminum inside the wings? Filaform?

[PeteMc]

Forgetting the logs for a moment.  What state and what kind of sales contract was signed?  Does it state the aircraft is airworthy?  I get that it may also state "as is" but the catch is if it is claimed to be "Airworthy" or not. 

For the attorney, my guess is this is more of a contract issue, but then an Aviation Attorney that is good with contracts won't get lost in the aviation jargon and the other side tossing out Regs. 

 

[toto]

I think I’ll say the same thing as everyone else, but my $0.02 is to focus on the future. The best prebuy in the world won’t prevent you from finding corrosion or engine problems in your first year of ownership, and we all have a bit of a dice roll when we go into that first annual. You always budget for the unknown unknowns and hope it’s not as bad as you fear. 

The good news is that you bought the plane you wanted and that will make you happy. Just get it airworthy and fly the hell out of it.

 

[Paul Thomas]

I'm sorry for what you are going through and it sounds like you've learned your lesson. What you're asking for is legal advice. The only advice that can be given is to consult with a lawyer that is competent in that area of law in the appropriate jurisdiction.

What has not been asked, is how to move forward with the annual and repairs. There is a lot to read on the subject as many owners have experienced expensive first annuals. Why are the rockers being replaced? How far has the engine been taken apart?

[M20GforMe]

I’m going to chalk this up as an expensive learning lesson and move on, I appreciate the Candid responses. I think my A&P got me a bit worked up, but at the end of the day I shouldn’t have let it go without a prebuy, and I’m not convinced this would have all been caught in a prebuy either.

I’ll just pray the IRAN goes well and doesn’t take as long as I fear it will. Thank you all for your input

[Marc_B]

I read threads like these and I think that most of the time the general sentiment is "sucks for the new Mooney owner" but is a pearl of wisdom for the potential "future Mooney owner."  We fly amazing, but often much older aircraft that have potential for lots of high cost items to fix.  Ounce of prevention beats a pound of cure, unfortunately.  Moral of the story is if you don't have the experience and expertise to do your own evaluation, a prebuy should be a given unless you know the person and know the aircraft (or get a smokin deal that makes any issues doable...although some corrosion has the potential to be cost prohibitive).

 

Its also very interesting that in aviation the idea of getting someone to "make things right" after the fact doesn't seem to happen that frequently.  These issues, unfortunately need to be caught up front and dealt with or typically turn into "owner issues."

[Utah20Gflyer]

First, I’m very sorry you have had such an unpleasant and stressful buying experience.  That really sucks!  
 

As others have said it doesn’t sound like a strong case.   You don’t know what was on that missing page or if there was nothing at all.  A good case for fraud would be an entry describing significant work that was never actually done, for instance a pencil whipped engine overhaul.  
 

I also own a G model Mooney.  Feel free to reach out if you have any G specific questions.  I’ve really enjoyed my Mooney the last 4 years, they are great planes.  
 

What part of the country do you live in?  

[midlifeflyer]

The only way to get reliable guidance on the question is to speak with a commercial lawyer in the relevant state  who understands airplanes. The commercial lawyer part is more important than the aviation part (your lawyer can hire an expert) , but the combination is best. 

i can’t tell you what I think of your case. I’ve been on both sides of the misrepresentation of an aircraft issue (one was even a Mooney), so I know how much I don’t know about yours. But the chances are that even if it’s good, it’s not going to be, as the lawyer ads put it,  “no fee unless we win.”
 

 

[Aaviationist]

“2 other people are interested”

not sure how people fall for that one. It’s almost always either a complete lie or someone sent a Facebook message and nothing else. 
 

 

[Pinecone]

22 minutes ago, Aaviationist said:

“2 other people are interested”

not sure how people fall for that one. It’s almost always either a complete lie or someone sent a Facebook message and nothing else. 
 

If one falls through, another one will come along.

I walked away from one upon log review and one due to seller not willing to move plane 100 miles for pre-buy..  One the seller backed out at the last minute.  And in the end, I ended up with a better airplane that the others. 

[Aaviationist]

There’s also a lot here that doesn’t make sense. Why were the rockers being replaced? What exactly was wrong with the wheels? An alternator and fuel filters are not (considering the price of airplane things) high cost items. 

[GeeBee]

Don't feel bad. Back in the 1990s my airline bought 5 used 737G's from Germania airlines because we were desperate for the lift, the market was hot and they could be had at a cheap price. They had no galleys so we knew we had to add them to meet our service requirements. Then we found out the floors were not strong enough (the factory strengthens the floors under galleys in production) so we had to do that. When we got into that mod, massive corrosion was found. When it was all done, we could have bought new 737s cheaper. On the ferry flight to headquarters, I had to shut down one engine due fire warning, then had to declare another emergency when the other engine developed low oil pressure. Had to replace both engines.  The point of this story is sometimes in the heat of the moment to "buy something" even sophisticated buyers from one of the world's largest airline, supposedly the most sophisticated aviation people in the world can be taken for a ride. A humorous note is the airplanes were so problematic, we gave them evil movie names, such as "Chucky", "Christine", "Jason" etc. 3 years later they were gone and so was our money.

Sorry for your troubles, the lesson is an expensive one and you are now the wiser for it.

[OR75]

just curious how did the annual get to 30k (cost of a new or overhauled alternator and fuel filter will be less than 1k)

Not sure what wheel beyond repair means 

Not uncommon for a first annual to be expensive 

[skykrawler]

Does a M20G have fuel filters?   Maybe it's a ragged out gascolator.

Not to sound un-empathetic....but first time aircraft buyers have a large curve to climb.  Beyond figuring out what the basic requirements are (capacity, speed, equipment) they must also understand the maintenance needs of airplanes and how to identify problems without completely relying a mechanic that they probably don't know that well.

What is unairworthy is sometimes a blurred line.  For example:   The short flexible hoses in the wheel well of a Piper Arrow landing gear (retract) have a tag on them that indicate 4Q01.    These hoses are 24 years old,  stiff but no signs of leakage.   Some will say they must be replaced, some would say they should be replaced, and others may say 'on condition' - no frays or leaks, let um ride.   The real answer seems to depend on the shop your airplane is currently in.  Some cases the shop recommends and the owner defers.

I haven't seen a 50 year old airplane that doesn't have corrosion somewhere.  If its substantial and in the wrong places, it's a problem and expensive.   Otherwise, it just gets treated.

 

[cliffy]

@GeeBee  I love this story of yours on the 737s :-)  See below

Back to the OP- unfortunately we hear this scenario over and over on this forum through the years

Its always a shock to a new owner when the first annual goes sour. 

We all want to have a good experience in buying our first airplane but many times it turns out less 

than desired AND its not confined to Mooneys. It happens in every line of planes. 

We tend to (as human) view with myopic eyes that we can treat airplanes like our new cars- insert key, drive-

When in fact we have an antique vehicle maybe 50 or more years old that has been sitting outside in the sun

and weather for 99% of its life. What are we to expect.  It ain't a new Toyota. 

We can preach "get a prebuy at least" but many times that falls through the cracks. and all we are left with is pick up the pieces. 

I feel sorry for the OP that this has happen BUT it can be remedied  and a useful  airplane will come out at the end. 

The OP can also show how he "resurrected" a lost airframe and made it whole to the next buyer after enjoying the 

fruits of his labor for a few years. All is not lost!  Its only a temporary setback.

 

GeeBee-  One airline I worked for bought a 737-200 out of the jungle in Jakarta (we called it the "jungle jet")

I got it on its first revenue flight - MCI-DEN-SLC and return. When I got to DEN I had 3 writeups that I could MEL.

When I got to SLC I had 5 more :-( All MELable)  SO now I have 8 MEL stickers on the log book.

I leave SLC with a full load and out of 25,000' I get an RD and have to dump it down to 12,000'. Couldn't get Stby or 

manual AC or DC to work. Back to SLC.  We cancel the flight as I wasn't going to put paying passengers back in the

airplane. Ferry to MCI. 

By the time I got to MCI I had a total of 32 writeups on the airplane.  It fell apart around me  :-) I was met by the Dir of OPS and the Dir of Mx at the gate and spent 30 mins going over everything that as wrong on the airplane. It got fixed and went back on the line only to suffer more pressurization problems. After many days they found that one phase of the APU feed lines had been spliced under the floors and had corroded  causing a phase imbalance and dumping the pressurization. 

When working for Continental Airlines in about  1970 we sold our 5   707 water bombers (water injection) to TWA and before delivery we changed out all the good tires and brakes for runouts from the wheel and brake shop (they were all going in for heavy check at TWA) and when they pulled the bottle bolts on the wing roots on a couple of them they were so corroded the airplanes sat for quite a while awaiting repairs. Even 121 maintenance is no guaranty of a good airplane.

Almost every galley we pulled on a heavy check airplane had bad corrosion below on the floor structure. 

Finding surprises after purchase is almost a cost of doing business in this arena.

[M20GforMe]

3 hours ago, OR75 said:

just curious how did the annual get to 30k (cost of a new or overhauled alternator and fuel filter will be less than 1k)

Not sure what wheel beyond repair means 

Not uncommon for a first annual to be expensive 

I apologize I have not replied to all questions, to be honest I'm following my A&P's advice a bit more blindly than I should, but its a learning process for me as a new owner.

The A&P was recommended to me by the owner of the flight school I was attending. "Theres not many people I would trust with my planes, he's one of them" was the phrase the flight school owner said to me which had me take it to them.

Here are screenshots of the initial quote, this is before they told me that all 3 wheels and tires needed to be replaced (found used Main Gears, had to buy a new nose one and wheels are PRICEY), then they found they had to change the nosegear assembly, so things added up.

What they said on the engine was they were changing valve cover gaskets and found the rocker arms were damaging themselves on the valves. They could not get any valve clearance, so they took out the standard length push rods, put the shortest push rods in, and still couldnt get the 0.028" - 0.080" clearance they needed. Based on their observations, they think the case halves have been milled down past allowable tolerance. and at the minimum the engine would need a new crank case. The compressions on the engine were all really good on past annuals and on this one, but then this came up. Theres about 800 hours on the O360-A1D.

The next question is if anyone has had recent experience with IRAN/Rebuild shops with more "palatable" lead times. The A&P normally uses Poplar Grove Airmotive, but theyre still waiting on an engine they sent them back in January, so I'd expect at least 6 months from them. Option B is exchanging the core for a rebuilt engine I suppose, but that also seems like an expensive proposition. I'm going to start calling around and see what an IRAN costs at a minimum. I have no experience here admittedly, but is it fair to assume that if I am already going down the road of an IRAN and case replacement I may be better off just overhauling/exchanging the engine? Last overhaul was 2007. Compressions at last annual were 72/80, 74/80, 72/80, 75/80.

[67 m20F chump]

I’m looking at how much labor he charged for doing the prop seal, alt. Belt, ect.  He is fucking you over.  

We have all been there.  This is why so many end up building Vans Aircraft.  You need to find a A&P that does owner assisted maintenance and get your hands dirty.

When I bought my Mooney I had a repurchase done at a highly recommended Mooney service center.  They missed the spar cap corrosion.  When I found it they told me it was no big deal.  I replaced the wing with an A&P and will never use that service center again.  
 

That was my 3rd airplane purchase.  Even when you try to buy good maintenance it’s hard to find.  
 

The block being decked sounds like crap to me too.  If the tolerance was that tight it would have held the valve open some.  
 

I’m not an A&P so I’m just giving opinion from what I have seen in the wild.

 

 

[EricJ]

22 minutes ago, M20GforMe said:

I apologize I have not replied to all questions, to be honest I'm following my A&P's advice a bit more blindly than I should, but its a learning process for me as a new owner.

The A&P was recommended to me by the owner of the flight school I was attending. "Theres not many people I would trust with my planes, he's one of them" was the phrase the flight school owner said to me which had me take it to them.

Here are screenshots of the initial quote, this is before they told me that all 3 wheels and tires needed to be replaced (found used Main Gears, had to buy a new nose one and wheels are PRICEY), then they found they had to change the nosegear assembly, so things added up.

What they said on the engine was they were changing valve cover gaskets and found the rocker arms were damaging themselves on the valves. They could not get any valve clearance, so they took out the standard length push rods, put the shortest push rods in, and still couldnt get the 0.028" - 0.080" clearance they needed. Based on their observations, they think the case halves have been milled down past allowable tolerance. and at the minimum the engine would need a new crank case. The compressions on the engine were all really good on past annuals and on this one, but then this came up. Theres about 800 hours on the O360-A1D.

Valve clearance needs to be checked with the tappets dry.   If they didn't remove and empty the lifters, they're going to think the pushrod is too long.   

22 minutes ago, M20GforMe said:

The next question is if anyone has had recent experience with IRAN/Rebuild shops with more "palatable" lead times. The A&P normally uses Poplar Grove Airmotive, but theyre still waiting on an engine they sent them back in January, so I'd expect at least 6 months from them. Option B is exchanging the core for a rebuilt engine I suppose, but that also seems like an expensive proposition. I'm going to start calling around and see what an IRAN costs at a minimum. I have no experience here admittedly, but is it fair to assume that if I am already going down the road of an IRAN and case replacement I may be better off just overhauling/exchanging the engine? Last overhaul was 2007. Compressions at last annual were 72/80, 74/80, 72/80, 75/80.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Essentially all reputable engine shops have had very long lead times for years.   

FWIW, based on what you've said so far, and the squawk list you got from the A&P I would STRONGLY suggest that you get an A&P who is very familiar with Mooneys to provide a second opinion on everything, including the engine issues.   There are a number of things on the squawk list that I think need a second set of Mooney-experienced eyes, and I suspect much of that list (if not most or maybe all) does not represent airworthiness issues.

DO NOT move the data plate until further investigation.    Not all Mooneys had the data plate on the tail.   Some were on the nose in front of the wing, and there may have been other places as well.    This is one of those things that raises a yellow (if not red) flag.   I wouldn't move the data plate unless there was a compelling reason to do so.   "The A&P said so" is the LEAST compelling reason to do something like that.    As a new aircraft owner you should be made aware that YOU, and not the A&P, are legally responsible for the maintenance on the aircraft.   Ultimately you are in charge.

Don't sign up for new engine mounts until you determine that the shims have been adjusted the maximum amount for any droop that may or may not be happening. 

Bottom line, I'd stop everything and get a 2nd opinion from an experienced Mooney mechanic.   There are too many big questions about what you've described so far.