Thoughts on AOA & Carbon Monoxide (Which Ones)

[Max Clark]

New avionics work starts in two weeks - I'm thinking about any changes (or additions) I want to do while the plane is at the shop.

Two things that have come up:

1. AOA - Garmin has a system that integrates with the G3x. The display looks great right next to the airspeed tape at the top of the screen (so part of the scan), with audio indications as well. Alpha Systems has their Eagle kit that mounts on the dash (so in the sight line). Both of these require a hole in the wing with a probe installed. Garmin's is another Pitot tube (although it can't replace the existing), while Alpha Systems is a maybe smaller installation/protrusion from the wing.

If you've used or replaced either of these systems I'd love to hear your experiences and thoughts. Would you do the same thing again, would you do something different, etc...

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/stpages/garminG3X-touch_11-12973.php
https://www.alphasystemsaoa.com/store/aoa-kits/eagle-above-dash-hud-kit.html

2. Carbon Monoxide Detector - I haven't heard anyone have anything good to say about the cheapo cards with the indicator dot that are sold. That takes me to an electronic detector (I like my BOSE so headset based isn't in the cards). I've seen basic detectors in a lot of plane, would be cheap and easy to install. The Guardian system feels like it's the most common out there. I've also stumbled across the Aithre (behind the panel with G3x interface) box.

Same question as above - any experiences or thoughts would be great to hear.

https://www.amazon.com/Aircraft-Monoxide-Detector-FORENSICS-low-level/dp/B076S6KBP2?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&psc=1&smid=A11FTLERBR653E
https://www.guardianavionics.com/faa-tso-certified-aircraft-co-detectors
https://aithreaviation.com/products/aithre-shield-ex-2-0-analog-output-carbon-monoxide-detector

Thanks as always!

[KSMooniac]

I've posted many times about the Alpha Systems Eagle AOA and there have been a lot of discussions, so search up some topics.  Bottom line, I would do it again in a heartbeat.  It is easy to see in peripheral vision, has an audio alert, and just plain works.  The probe is installed in a lower inspection cover, so you don't really need a new "hole in the wing".  ~8 hours might be a fair estimate of labor involved to install it as there is pneumatic tubing (like pitot-static) routed into the cabin, a controller box and small calibration panel, plus the display.  You'll need a circuit breaker for power and the optional audio connection to an un-switched input on your audio panel.

Integrated software-based AOA displayed on an instrument in the panel is only slightly better than nothing at all.  You should not have to look down to reference it in a critical phase of flight, especially in an emergency engine-out forced landing where it might be the most useful tool in the plane.

 

Edit to add support for any modern CO detector.  Look up Sensorcon and the history a very fortunate Mooney pilot if you want a fast and portable sensor.  I have one and also purchased a Lightspeed DZ headset with the integrated sensor there too.  If/when I move to a modern PFD system I might add a panel-mounted solution as well, but I'm wary that they may require expensive replacements in the future to keep working.  (I have done no homework on the topic.)

[AJ88V]

Just bought the Forensics CO detector you linked from Amazon.  That's their gen-1 model.  It did have a 20% off coupon at least until last night, but doesn't seem to be there now.

Considered a lot of the lower priced units on Amazon (~$30-$40), but that Forensics unit is sold by Sporty's and has decent reviews over there.  I figure any of these are better than the dot-type detectors.

[PeterRus]

I was looking for a "good" (as in not a "cheapo card")  CO detector and the Forensics is cheaper than others and quite small. Put it on my panel (comes with a holder and 3M sticky patch). One downside is it calibrates for about 3 min before it's functional. Upside Amazon had a $20 discount. Also comes in white color (and with less aviation jargon), but more expensive and longer shipping times from Amazon.

[Rick Junkin]

I have the Guardian remote mount CO detector integrated with a G3X Touch system. I have the CO PPM displayed in a G3X data field so I can visually check it and also get a G3X CAS message and alert tone when the CO rises above 50PPM. Always on, carefree operation. Highly recommended. I also have a Sensorcon as a backup.

The G3X AOA works very well for me.  My use technique is derived from using an AOA indicator in a military airplane and I use the AOA tones more than the visual display to tell me where I am with AOA. But bottom line is I'm happy with the accuracy and usability of the system. Keep in mind that it is a tool and an additional training item and must be well understood and practiced with in order to be of value to you when you need it most. The experimental implementation allows you to program an "on speed" tone which is the best possible reference if you train to use it, but it isn't available for the certified version yet.

[dkkim73]

+1 for the Forensics CO detector. It seems pretty sensitive and seems to work well. It's picking up stuff way before the Sentry. I did run out of battery once which might be my fault, but it uses CR2032's so no big deal. There is a few-minute startup calibration, I just hit it when I do my initial in cabin acceptance check and start the pre-flight. Very happy so far, made me much more aware of exhaust on taxi with doors open, etc. 

Thinking to maybe add a panel mount CO detector at some point, e.g. with a clock/timer. But feels less urgent now. Would be nice to log the output if it connects to your avionics, but hardly a necessity. 

Looking much harder at an AOA indicator, probably the Eagle that's been described well on recent threads. I like the idea of having it very near, or in, line-of-sight. 

 

[Danb]

David my Acclaim is in the shop getting the AOA Eagle installed. I’ll let you know how goes.

 

D

[MikeOH]

Another happy Forensics owner.  In fact, it's probably time for a new one; I believe the sensor is only good for 3 years.

[MikeOH]

CAUTION:  Thread drift!!

Just went to order a new Forensics detector from Amazon and it won't let me!  Says can't ship to my location!  Tried a bunch of zip codes in California and site wouldn't allow any; then tried a zip code in Nevada and no problem!  A little Googling and it looks like if the batteries are REPLACEABLE, which you can conveniently do with the Forensics detector, they are NOT allowed to be sold in California!!  Weird thing is the law looks like it goes back to 2015 and I bought the one I have well after that.

Can anyone else confirm if that's really the issue, or is there some other reason?

[dkkim73]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

they are NOT allowed to be sold in California!!  Weird thing is the law looks like it goes back to 2015 and I bought the one I have well after that.

Can anyone else confirm if that's really the issue, or is there some other reason?

Ay caramba! Nothing surprises me anymore from that jurisdiction.. but then it occasionally does, LOL. There is probably a story there, maybe trying to drive work to certified installers. Makes little safety sense. 

Re: the timing, I've noticed that disseminated enforcement of these things tends to lag initial implementation. Amazon is large enough that i would guess either they got "informed" of some of these laws or some Asst. Director of Ninnyness finally got around to that batch of compliance work. 

You might have better luck with an independent re: seller...

[varlajo]

4 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Can anyone else confirm if that's really the issue, or is there some other reason?

I confirm. Indeed the case. Sad, but true. 

[AJ88V]

13 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Just went to order a new Forensics detector from Amazon and it won't let me!  Says can't ship to my location!  Tried a bunch of zip codes in California and site wouldn't allow any; then tried a zip code in Nevada and no problem!  A little Googling and it looks like if the batteries are REPLACEABLE, which you can conveniently do with the Forensics detector, they are NOT allowed to be sold in California!!  Weird thing is the law looks like it goes back to 2015 and I bought the one I have well after that.

Can anyone else confirm if that's really the issue, or is there some other reason?

Try Sporty's for the Forensics detector.  You;ll have to pay $6 shipping, but better than not getting one.

https://www.sportys.com/forensics-carbon-monoxide-detector.html

Once again, my decision to forego endless great weather and amusing politics that promise the ultimate protection by the nanny state of California.  It looks like SB-1204, Safe and Secure Transportation Act is likely to be passed and signed by Gov. Pneusom.  Since airplanes fall out of the sky and have to come down sometime anyway, all non-commercial aircraft will have flight operations restricted to airspace over designated airfields.  Fortunately, celebrities' aircraft are all registered commercial.

[Max Clark]

Updates for the thread (and future readers):

I'm leaning towards the Guardian Avionics AERO 452-201-011 Remote Mount CO Detector (integrated with the Garmin G3x). Other options are not for certified aircraft, I like not having another thing on the panel, the integration with the Garmin EIS & PFD fits what I was looking for.

https://www.guardianavionics.com/aero-452-201-remote-co-detector-tso-certified-aircraft

And a Sensorcon AV8 Inspector Pro AV8-CO-03 Carbon Monoxide Monitor for Aviation. Small, portable, and can be clipped onto the seatbelt with a vibrating alert.

https://www.sensorcon.com/products/av8-inspector-pro-av8-co-03-carbon-monoxide-monitor-for-aviation?variant=39342772125766

I'm still on the fence on the AOA, but will probably go with the Alpha Systems Eagle Dash mount. Being able to see it while looking outside the plane just makes too much sense.

 

[Larry]

For those in California, you can order through the Forensics website/s with free shipping.

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, Larry said:

For those in California, you can order through the Forensics website/s with free shipping.

Thank you!

Order went through with no problem.

[NickG]

I just had the Garmin AOA installed in my Ovation - I have a G3X Touch. I pick it up Monday - I'll let you know how it is!

[Todd1]

I have the Garmin AOA in my Bravo. I don’t have the G3X though. I have a G500. Same thing but they had to add the GSU 25 for its air data.  Wasn’t sure what I’d think of it or how much I’d use it.   
But it didn’t take but one flight and I love it. If you have the G3X already I’d add it. Simple. It’s right in the line of sight. I’ve been teaching my 14yo son to fly it and for visual approaches and the transition from instrument to outside the cockpit it works great. You won’t be disappointed at all. 
The  ones in the jets I’ve flown just have no resolution. Fast- on speed-slow. That’s it. So that’s why I didn’t know if it would be good. But like I said it’s totally worth it. 

[Oscar Avalle]

I have the eagle system installed in my M20C. I really like it. The HUD option is really nice. It allows me to look outside and focus on my AOA.


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[Max Clark]

14 hours ago, NickG said:

I just had the Garmin AOA installed in my Ovation - I have a G3X Touch. I pick it up Monday - I'll let you know how it is!

I have a mental block on installing a second pitot tube that can't be used as a pitot tube lol.

Let me know what you think!

[Max Clark]

1 hour ago, Oscar Avalle said:

I have the eagle system installed in my M20C. I really like it. The HUD option is really nice. It allows me to look outside and focus on my AOA.

How big is the probe on the wing?

[Max Clark]

14 hours ago, Todd1 said:

I have the Garmin AOA in my Bravo. I don’t have the G3X though. I have a G500. Same thing but they had to add the GSU 25 for its air data.  Wasn’t sure what I’d think of it or how much I’d use it.   
But it didn’t take but one flight and I love it. If you have the G3X already I’d add it. Simple. It’s right in the line of sight. I’ve been teaching my 14yo son to fly it and for visual approaches and the transition from instrument to outside the cockpit it works great. You won’t be disappointed at all. 
The  ones in the jets I’ve flown just have no resolution. Fast- on speed-slow. That’s it. So that’s why I didn’t know if it would be good. But like I said it’s totally worth it. 

The negative seems to be having to look down to see the AOA. Do you find that to be an issue at all?

[Oscar Avalle]

12 minutes ago, Max Clark said:

How big is the probe on the wing?

Max, it is not a big deal. Not at all. It is a little vane, fin, of about 4 x 1 inches. It actually looks even cool. 
 

on my Aspen I had the “synthetic “ AOA and I really did not like it. The eagle AOA with the HUD display is much better. 
 

oscar 

[Oscar Avalle]

13 minutes ago, Max Clark said:

The negative seems to be having to look down to see the AOA. Do you find that to be an issue at all?

If you have the AOA HUD display you don’t need to look down.

[Max Clark]

I just had an hour long conversation with Mark Korin (he owns Alpha Systems AOA). He was incredibly gracious and gave me more time on the phone than I would have imagined. FWIW I'll be buying their kit.

[Bob E]

If you are tired of the dot card but don't want the expense of certified/built-in:

Posted October 7

Although I have a TSO'd USB power source built into my panel, I use the cigarette lighter socket for auxiliary USB power, and found a nifty little adapter that also includes a carbon monoxide detector.  The CO detector has a digital readout (blue LED between the two sockets) as well as a very loud buzzer that goes off if it detects the presence of CO.  It's on whenever the master is on, and it works great.  I tested it by lighting a match a few feet away when the aircraft was in the hangar.  That triggered a warning in about 3 seconds when the indicator reached about 20 ppm.  Had it for almost 3 years now.  It's on Amazon for $34.  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07GCQR19G/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1