Crosswinds

[PaulS]

Hi Fellow Bravo pilots,  new owner here   and I have a question.   I was wondering what others are using for personal mins (or maxes) on crosswind landings?    Our POH lists 13 knots as the demonstrated crosswind, which we all know is  not a limitation.   I understand that proficiency, technique and being comfortable all enter into the individual equation, but I am  seeking out what other Bravo owners are comfortable with.     I'm a 900 hour private pilot, and for reference about 700 of those hours are in the Cirrus SR 22,  which has a maximum demonstrated crosswind number of 21 knots and still had plenty of rudder to go beyond that.   TIA. 

[LANCECASPER]

The POH says: 

Crosswind landings should be accomplished by using the above procedures (NORMAL LANDING) except maintain approach speed appropriate for the wind conditions. Allow aircraft to crab until the landing flare. Accomplish the touchdown in a slight wing low sideslip (low wing into the wind) and the aircraft aligned with the runway. During the landing roll. position the flight controls to counteract the crosswind.

I carry a little more speed and don't use full flaps on crosswinds and unless it's a mild crosswind, I don't even use T/O flaps. I've landed in 15+ kt crosswinds for sure, a few times with gusts closer to 20. Not my best landings for sure, but I don't think I compromised safety. I think the key is to understand that you need more runway if you get some gusts and don't force the landing. Be ready to go-around.

[EricJ]

Mooneys are pretty tolerant of crosswinds in my experience.   I came back from Wyoming to Phoenix on the day that the remains of Hurricane Hilary was going through last summer and landed with some very hairy direct 90-degree crosswinds (gusting 35 kn IIRC).   It's the only time I've used the entire length of our 4500' north runway at DVT, and it certainly wasn't trivial, but it wasn't anything super-difficult, either.

I got checked out in a C182 recently which included some significant crosswind work at one of our smaller peripheral airports.    The very experienced check pilot kept having to remind me to add crosswind aileron on takeoff, something I never bother with in the Mooney because it just doesn't seem to need it.   The C182 did, very much. 

 

[DCarlton]

58 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

The POH says: 

Crosswind landings should be accomplished by using the above procedures (NORMAL LANDING) except maintain approach speed appropriate for the wind conditions. Allow aircraft to crab until the landing flare. Accomplish the touchdown in a slight wing low sideslip (low wing into the wind) and the aircraft aligned with the runway. During the landing roll. position the flight controls to counteract the crosswind.

I carry a little more speed and don't use full flaps on crosswinds and unless it's a mild crosswind, I don't use T/O flaps. I've landed in 15+ crosswinds for sure, a few times with gusts closer to 20. Not my best landings for sure, but I don't think I compromised safety. I think the key is to understand that you need more runway if you get some gusts and don't force the landing. Be ready to go-around.

Would be interesting to know what flap setting most people do use when it's 15G20 at an angle to the runway.  I'm using 3/4 or a tad more most of the time now but haven't been faced with a stiff crosswind in a while.  

[DCarlton]

25 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Mooneys are pretty tolerant of crosswinds in my experience.   I came back from Wyoming to Phoenix on the day that the remains of Hurricane Hilary was going through last summer and landed with some very hairy direct 90-degree crosswinds (gusting 35 kn IIRC).   It's the only time I've used the entire length of our 4500' north runway at DVT, and it certainly wasn't trivial, but it wasn't anything super-difficult, either.

I got checked out in a C182 recently which included some significant crosswind work at one of our smaller peripheral airports.    The very experienced check pilot kept having to remind me to add crosswind aileron on takeoff, something I never bother with in the Mooney because it just doesn't seem to need it.   The C182 did, very much. 

 

When I used to fly to the Phoenix area repeatedly on a rather inflexible schedule, I kept a list of every airport in the Phoenix area handy with the runway headings and freqs just in case the winds surprised me.  Around 83 trips and never had to use it.  FFZ was my go to airport.  

[Danb]

I like most have landed with stiff crosswinds, 20g35-40, the real make or break is how gusty and if the gusts are inconsistent eg. going between 20* and 90* angle. I like to have a long final so judge the amount of correction needed. I personally like to crab my way down while driving the plane with rudder after my crab angle is established. I generally use full flaps unlike others and when established determine what’s needed. We recently discussed landing with speed brakes which I never have, based on those responses I’ll be practicing speed brake landings. To me it’s a feel thing reason for evaluating during a long final. Some of my best landings have been in nasty conditions while my worse have been in no wind conditions go figure. 

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, DCarlton said:

When I used to fly to the Phoenix area repeatedly on a rather inflexible schedule, I kept a list of every airport in the Phoenix area handy with the runway headings and freqs just in case the winds surprised me.  Around 83 trips and never had to use it.  FFZ was my go to airport.  

It's usually very tame here in the valley, so this was notable but it was, after all, a hurricane.       The rest of the state gets pretty windy, especially the northern half.

[N201MKTurbo]

You will notice a complete lack of any windmills anywhere near the valley. That should tell you something.

[PaulS]

Thanks everyone,  pretty much what I thought or hoped  it would be,  I love flying this airplane. 

[PeteMc]

One other thing to remember is that Mooneys DO NOT do well with a Bounce!  It seems like a lot of prop strikes I hear about start with a bounce that someone tries to correct for and they end up porpoising between the mains and the nose wheel.  So (as always) be primed for a Go Around.  On a calm say and a long Rwy you might just add a  little power to float a bit.  But with a strong Xwind you may end up off in the bushes.

When one Rwy was closed at my old Apt the strong gusty Xwinds in the winter months kept us guessing.  I had one time that was pretty gusty and the "gust" went away when I was a few feet above Rwy and I dropped and bounced hard.  So be ready for that lack of gust to drop you at the wrong moment.

As for limits.  Mine is to set up on Final and see how much rudder authority I have left.  If I'm all the way in with nothing to add, then I'm going someplace else.  I don't mind the gusts and the crabbing, etc.  But if I can't keep the plane going where I want it to when I transition over the Rwy, then why am I bothering. 

 

 

[toomany]

heading to mexico once from raton nm (rtn) we hit severe mtn wave over the san mateo range. our groundspeed was 80kts, sometimes less. realizing the winds aloft weren't as advertised, and noticing that our fuel was quickly running out relative to the rate of foreward progression, we decided to land for fuel instead of risking putting it down in the mountains on empty tanks.. we were over show low (sow) when the decision was made that we either got fuel or took the risk of not making it to yuma or even pheonix. when i tuned in the awos winds were around 170°, from what i recall, at 45 gusting 54. i thought it was possibly ground equip error so i tuned in nearby white mtn lake and got the same winds - i think they use the same information. not believing what i was hearing i asked atc if they had any wx reports at sow - they told me the same thing the awos had and that a pilatus just tried to make it into sow and couldn't. not to be deterred from a sound decision that we needed fuel or we'd be hiking out of mountains we went for rnwy 22. i made the approach at probably 110-120 kts w no flaps and my best dancing shoes on. we ate up quite a bit of rnwy before i was able to push jt onto the tarmac. the ground roll was pretty short as i recall and i used full control forces on all surfaces at least once during the approach and landing, but we made it. as we were on approach guys who were listening to the unicom started coming out of their hangars to watch the idiot trying to land in gale force winds. luckily i didnt give them much of a show. when we were taxiing to the fbo, gravel, not sand, was sandblasting us - that was probably the worst part of the whole experience, hearing the gravel hitting the aircraft. once inside the airport the mgr told us that atc just called and was asking if we made it in - i really appreciate those guys. later a meridian made it in and must've been getting sand blasted as well because he had the fbo park fuel trucks around his airplane. we took on fuel and waited for about an hour or so and flew to yuma - when we were in range of pheonix i did the math and we most likely would have ended up leaving a bent airplane in the mountains just east of the pheonix area. i certainly don't recommend anything close to those winds under normal circumstances, but for what it is worth the airframe is highly capable.


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[Fly Boomer]

29 minutes ago, toomany said:

when i tuned in the awos winds were around 170°, from what i recall, at 45 gusting 54.

Totally unrelated, but I read that some commercial flights from China, Japan, Philippines, etc. to the US were picking up 250 MPH tailwinds on a recent day.  Ground speeds up around 800.

[Pinecone]

On 1/28/2024 at 1:05 PM, Fly Boomer said:

Totally unrelated, but I read that some commercial flights from China, Japan, Philippines, etc. to the US were picking up 250 MPH tailwinds on a recent day.  Ground speeds up around 800.

I was on a red eye LAX - IAD a number of years ago.  UAL when you could listen to the radios on Ch 9.

They pulled it back to 0.73 MACH and we arrived over 45 minutes early.  

[Shadrach]

On 1/24/2024 at 1:29 PM, DCarlton said:

Would be interesting to know what flap setting most people do use when it's 15G20 at an angle to the runway.  I'm using 3/4 or a tad more most of the time now but haven't been faced with a stiff crosswind in a while.  

I used to subscribe to the “partial flap” philosophy but I don’t sweat it anymore. I typically crab down final and transition to a slip as I enter the runway environment. I have always had adequate control authority.

[BravoWhiskey]

On 1/28/2024 at 1:05 PM, Fly Boomer said:

Totally unrelated, but I read that some commercial flights from China, Japan, Philippines, etc. to the US were picking up 250 MPH tailwinds on a recent day.  Ground speeds up around 800.

I was on a flight from Tokyo to NY several years back.  We flew straight across rather than over and made the trip in 10 hrs. 

[PaulS]

Thanks everyone for responding.  I think my approach with this airplane will be similar to the Cirrus.   Crab until about 50 agl, then transition into a sideslip.  I like doing that mainly because I can figure out I'll have enough rudder as I get close to the ground.   Personally, unless the poh says otherwise, I prefer to go full flaps, normal speeds plus gust factor if needed.  I do this mainly to minimize my time in the flare waiting for speed to bleed off while in a crosswind.   I go to full crosswind  control deflection on roll out and use them on take off too.  I learned that lesson long ago in a light trainer.   I've had one what I would consider real crosswind landing so far in this airplane, it was about a 10 knot crosswind component, I barely noticed it (with the proper inputs of course).   Thanks again.