New Member

[ewilliams93]

Hi all,

 

  What an excellent resource for Mooney research! My name is Eric Williams and I have been watching the Mooney market for quite some time now. A little bit about myself, I'm an aviation enthusiast and professional pilot by trade, currently chief pilot of a  three aircraft corporate flight department in Houston, Texas. My father taught me how to fly and owned a couple aircraft over the years (172 and twin Comanche), I've been isolated from the light GA and single engine piston world for roughly 5 years now with a few exceptions. Over that time frame I've really started to miss that side of aviation and have justified the necessity of ownership so here I am. While I do not directly have any Mooney experience I've always been interested in the airframes because of the pilots appeal, speed, and efficiency. I've been searching through this forum and have found several similar posts and lots of great model comparison and operational notes so I'll try my best not to beat a dead horse. Below is the cliff notes on my mission, my sense is that a J model or Ovation is the most sensible option. If anyone has any input or wouldn't mind fielding some questions over the phone that would be great. I would love to meet or speak with other Texas based Mooney owners about their experience and how they came to their decision in terms of aircraft selection. 

Planned Annual Utilization: 80-110hours

Home Airport 60R Navasota 

10% Local flying for fun or $100 hamburger 1-3pax onboard  less than 100nm

50% short haul cross country 150-300nm(most frequently between Houston and South or Central Texas) often solo 

40% mid to long haul cross country 400-800nm this is where the mission profile is more demanding. These legs would be a mix of the Florida panhandle, Tennessee, deep West Texas(big bend country), and some southern Colorado/New Mexico. The Colorado/New Mexico trips would almost always be 1-2 pax tops as these would likely be short summer vacations or hunting trips. The Florida trips would almost always be 4 adults or 3 adults and one child(currently 3yo).

Everyone in my family is small, I'm about 5'7" 140lbs and that's probably a good average pax weight. We all pack light although I am curious how difficult it would be to carry rifles and hunting gear for 2. I've noticed not all models have removeable rear seats. 

 

A strong IFR platform is a must although I've flown in enough shit weather in my life I don't intend to fly regularly in widespread low imc or night imc conditions as my schedule will likely be flexible enough to avoid it.

Thanks in advance for comments, advice, and future problem solving. Please feel free to reach out with any recommendations in the shopping experience, I would also like to find a local Mooney CFI with a fair amount of J model and ovation experience.

 

Regards,

Eric Williams  

 

[KSMooniac]

Welcome!

You've got it narrowed down correctly, IMO.  I've got an early J and it is good enough for me to not feel like I have or will "outgrow" it and want a bigger-engined Mooney.  I do intend to eventually add a turbo-normalizer (long story, and I'm far from normal!) instead of trading-up to a factory turbo.  A J, especially 1982 or newer to get the rear bucket seats, will do your missions just fine, but if you're truly flying a lot of 800 NM trips, then you'll long for an Ovation, especially flying west into typical headwinds.  Rifles and hunting gear will be no problem in either plane, especially with back seats out.  I've carried 2 29er mountain bikes (wheels off, though), camping gear, and a 40 lb dog in my J from KS to WA.  

You didn't mention budget... most J's are older than 1994, and all Ovations are 1994 or newer, and that comes with a big difference in acquisition price.  I don't think you'd be disappointed with whatever you choose, but the best advice is buy the best example you can get, and as closely equipped as you might wish.  Everything except rampant corrosion is "fixable" if you apply enough time and money.    

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, ewilliams93 said:

Thanks in advance for comments, advice, and future problem solving.

You have clearly given this some thought, but I will add an admonition to do everything in your power to avoid an airplane with problems.  Down here in the Part 91 world, there can be serious problems that cannot be easily discovered by examining either the airplane or the logs.

[Kerrville]

I’m in Houston too. I just bought a 76 M20J. Would be glad to let you fly it sometime and talk about the Mooney. Send me a private message and I will give you my number. I am based at Cxo. 

[ArtVandelay]

I’m in Houston too. I just bought a 76 M20J. Would be glad to let you fly it sometime and talk about the Mooney. Send me a private message and I will give you my number. I am based at Cxo. 

76? Don’t you mean 77?

[1980Mooney]

2 hours ago, ewilliams93 said:

Hi all,

 

  What an excellent resource for Mooney research! My name is Eric Williams and I have been watching the Mooney market for quite some time now. A little bit about myself, I'm an aviation enthusiast and professional pilot by trade, currently chief pilot of a  three aircraft corporate flight department in Houston, Texas. My father taught me how to fly and owned a couple aircraft over the years (172 and twin Comanche), I've been isolated from the light GA and single engine piston world for roughly 5 years now with a few exceptions. Over that time frame I've really started to miss that side of aviation and have justified the necessity of ownership so here I am. While I do not directly have any Mooney experience I've always been interested in the airframes because of the pilots appeal, speed, and efficiency. I've been searching through this forum and have found several similar posts and lots of great model comparison and operational notes so I'll try my best not to beat a dead horse. Below is the cliff notes on my mission, my sense is that a J model or Ovation is the most sensible option. If anyone has any input or wouldn't mind fielding some questions over the phone that would be great. I would love to meet or speak with other Texas based Mooney owners about their experience and how they came to their decision in terms of aircraft selection. 

Planned Annual Utilization: 80-110hours

Home Airport 60R Navasota 

10% Local flying for fun or $100 hamburger 1-3pax onboard  less than 100nm

50% short haul cross country 150-300nm(most frequently between Houston and South or Central Texas) often solo 

40% mid to long haul cross country 400-800nm this is where the mission profile is more demanding. These legs would be a mix of the Florida panhandle, Tennessee, deep West Texas(big bend country), and some southern Colorado/New Mexico. The Colorado/New Mexico trips would almost always be 1-2 pax tops as these would likely be short summer vacations or hunting trips. The Florida trips would almost always be 4 adults or 3 adults and one child(currently 3yo).

Everyone in my family is small, I'm about 5'7" 140lbs and that's probably a good average pax weight. We all pack light although I am curious how difficult it would be to carry rifles and hunting gear for 2. I've noticed not all models have removeable rear seats. 

 

A strong IFR platform is a must although I've flown in enough shit weather in my life I don't intend to fly regularly in widespread low imc or night imc conditions as my schedule will likely be flexible enough to avoid it.

Thanks in advance for comments, advice, and future problem solving. Please feel free to reach out with any recommendations in the shopping experience, I would also like to find a local Mooney CFI with a fair amount of J model and ovation experience.

 

Regards,

Eric Williams  

 

Welcome onto the forum.   

A lot of your mission fits a M20J.  But then there are a few issues.

• Years ago, when we we were a lightweight family like yours also based in the Houston area, we had a similar mission and bought our M20J.
  • Trips to Central TX hill country, South TX South Padre, Florida panhandle, Destin, all with seats filled worked well
  • We also frequently took trips to New Mexico with seats filled - the plane was adequate but density altitude planning always critical, especially in the summer.
    • I elected to have the Rocket Engineering "Missile" STC which added an IO-550.  This gave it Ovation like performance which better handles flying in New Mexico and Colorado.
• Just about any Mooney with the right avionics is a "strong IFR platform". 
• Ours does not have split/removable rear seats - that was a feature starting in 1982
  • Skip posted this link https://mooneyspace.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=128630&key=679a9d65c36d11a698921a4cea2a60b3
• You mention "2 pax plus rifles" - that sounds like you might benefit from the greater backseat and luggage space (length) in a Long Body.  You could take one seat out and lay the guns down.

You said "don't intend to fly regularly in widespread low imc or night imc" I am not sure if you meant you need to be able to handle all kinds of weather conditions "occasionally".  If you need FIKI and need to get over some weather in the lower Flight Levels, then that changes things - it narrows your options.  You would need a Bravo M20M or Acclaim M20TN.  I think there are a few Encore M20K with FIKI but they are scarce and weak on UL

And last, since you are based in Houston you didn't mention Air Conditioning.  Perhaps your past GA experiences were here and you have already factored long IFR releases in during hot humid nearly unbearable weather.  I manage without A/C by loading/fuel/preflight and keeping it out of the sun in the hangar before family arrives.

Just my experience.

Edited December 19, 2023 by 1980Mooney

[ewilliams93]

53 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

Welcome!

You've got it narrowed down correctly, IMO.  I've got an early J and it is good enough for me to not feel like I have or will "outgrow" it and want a bigger-engined Mooney.  I do intend to eventually add a turbo-normalizer (long story, and I'm far from normal!) instead of trading-up to a factory turbo.  A J, especially 1982 or newer to get the rear bucket seats, will do your missions just fine, but if you're truly flying a lot of 800 NM trips, then you'll long for an Ovation, especially flying west into typical headwinds.  Rifles and hunting gear will be no problem in either plane, especially with back seats out.  I've carried 2 29er mountain bikes (wheels off, though), camping gear, and a 40 lb dog in my J from KS to WA.  

You didn't mention budget... most J's are older than 1994, and all Ovations are 1994 or newer, and that comes with a big difference in acquisition price.  I don't think you'd be disappointed with whatever you choose, but the best advice is buy the best example you can get, and as closely equipped as you might wish.  Everything except rampant corrosion is "fixable" if you apply enough time and money.    

Great info on the cargo! I've heard if spacious if not using rear seats but never seen a real world application. If you have a photo of it loaded down I would love to see it, I cycle as well and like entertaining the idea of packing the bike just curious how to navigate the door even without seatpost and wheelset.

As far as the budget goes I would be shopping in the <$200k mark for a solid late model J model. Obviously the Ovation budget would be quite different, realistically I think the GX models would be out as I don't need to be spending that kind of money on an airplane but I would be comfortable anything sub $280k

[1980Mooney]

17 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

76? Don’t you mean 77?

The airworthiness date on his plane (serial number 24-0040) is 11/18/1976.  But yes it is technically a "1977 Model"

https://www.mooneyevents.com/chrono.htm

[ewilliams93]

52 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

You have clearly given this some thought, but I will add an admonition to do everything in your power to avoid an airplane with problems.  Down here in the Part 91 world, there can be serious problems that cannot be easily discovered by examining either the airplane or the logs.

Do you have any specific examples or things to look for outside of the norm. While I'm not flying light GA regularly we are a corporate flight department operating under the same 91 regs and I've been around acquisitions in the past so I have some idea.  

[ewilliams93]

10 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

Welcome onto the forum.   

A lot of your mission fits a M20J.  But then there are a few issues.

• Years ago when we we were a lightweight family like yours based in the Houston area, we a similar mission and bought our M20J.
  • Trips to Central TX hill country, South TX South Padre, Florida panhandle, Destin, all with seats, filled worked well
  • We also frequently took trips to New Mexico with seats filled - the plane was adequate but density altitude planning always critical, especially in the summer.
    • I elected to have the Rocket Engineering "Missile" STC which added an IO-550.  This gave it Ovation like performance which better handles flying in New Mexico and Colorado.
• Just about any Mooney with the right avionics is a "strong IFR platform". 
• Ours does not have split/removable rear seats - that was a feature starting in 1982
  • Skip posted this link https://mooneyspace.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=128630&key=679a9d65c36d11a698921a4cea2a60b3
• You mention "2 pax plus rifles" - that sounds like you might benefit from the greater backseat and luggage space (length) in a Long Body.  You could take one seat out and lay the guns down.

You said "don't intend to fly regularly in widespread low imc or night imc" I am not sure if you meant you need to be able to handle all kinds of weather conditions "occasionally".  If you need FIKI and need to get over some weather in the lower Flight Levels, then that changes things - it narrows your options.  You would need a Bravo M20M or Acclaim M20TN.  I think there are a few Encore M20K with FIKI but they are scarce and weak on UL

And last, since you are based in Houston you didn't mention Air Conditioning.  Perhaps your past GA experiences were here and you have already factored long IFR releases in during hot humid nearly unbearable weather.  I manage without A/C by loading/fuel/preflight and keeping it out of the sun in the hangar before family arrives.

Just my experience.

Thanks for the notes, I'm glad to hear it carries a lightweight family of 4 around Texas well!

I'll keep that article and date range in mind as I continue my search.

I don't see the need for FIKI, freezing level for most of what I intend to do shouldn't be a huge issue and on the days that it is I will adjust accordingly, if i went the turbo route it would be a different story.

I'm just use to sweating so its expected but yes AC would be nice.

[1980Mooney]

15 minutes ago, ewilliams93 said:

Great info on the cargo! I've heard if spacious if not using rear seats but never seen a real world application. If you have a photo of it loaded down I would love to see it, I cycle as well and like entertaining the idea of packing the bike just curious how to navigate the door even without seatpost and wheelset

Here is a Youtube of the folding backseats in a Mid-Body M20K (same interior dimensions as a J).  I do not think there is any way to put a bicycle in a Mooney unless it is a folding frame.  For that you need an A36 or a big Piper 6 - Saratoga or Dakota

 

[Hank]

5 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

Here is a Youtube of the folding backseats in a Mid-Body M20K (same interior dimensions as a J).  I do not think there is any way to put a bicycle in a Mooney unless it is a folding frame.  For that you need an A36 or a big Piper 6 - Saratoga or Dakota

 

@aviatoreb is a serious cyclist, and can provide a serious answer. He flies a Rocket, modified K.

My C is a pretty good hauler, but the J has several more cubic feet to work with.

 

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, ewilliams93 said:

Do you have any specific examples or things to look for outside of the norm. While I'm not flying light GA regularly we are a corporate flight department operating under the same 91 regs and I've been around acquisitions in the past so I have some idea.  

Mostly, the things I'm thinking of could be discovered by a competent Mooney guy, but many Mooney guys are just not wired to look for problems in systems that have not yet failed.  The other biggie is corrosion.  A competent Mooney guy will know where to look and, if properly instructed may do so.  But the other half of maybe is "maybe not".  Some famous Mooney guys have people in their employ that are not as competent or motivated.  I'll just go back to my somewhat generic advice:  "Get the best, most competent, most comprehensive pre-buy you can, and then hope for the best.  But plan for the worst."

[Kerrville]

4 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

76? Don’t you mean 77?

Nope late 76. 

[KSMooniac]

Nope late 76. 

There was no 1976 model year M20J. Some (like mine) were produced in late 76 but all were 1977 J's.

Sent from my motorola edge plus 2023 using Tapatalk

[KSMooniac]

Great info on the cargo! I've heard if spacious if not using rear seats but never seen a real world application. If you have a photo of it loaded down I would love to see it, I cycle as well and like entertaining the idea of packing the bike just curious how to navigate the door even without seatpost and wheelset.
As far as the budget goes I would be shopping in the

All of that, plus two humans and a dog went in there!

Sent from my motorola edge plus 2023 using Tapatalk

[Flash]

There have been times I would have liked to have something that could climb higher/go faster than my M20J, but it has gotten me everywhere I have wanted to go so far in 24 years of ownership, to every state but Hawaii and to 20 countries. It is an excellent IFR platform, especially with a good autopilot to relieve workload. Your mission profile seems like a very good fit for an M20J's strengths, with the possible exception of carrying four adults from Texas to Florida, which even with small adults might be a bit of a squeeze for a trip of that duration. (Disclaimers: I have carried four adults for short trips. I have never sat in the back seat of my plane when it was in the air.)

[KSMooniac]

I feel the same as Flash about my J.  It does so much so well, and is so economical I never worry about a trip cost.  I have done 4 adults on a weekend trip a few times with light baggage, and up to 500 miles (~3.x hours) with partial fuel and it works fine if you pack carefully and don't have obese folks.  (I was 25-30 lbs lighter then myself. )  I don't like to subject pax to more than 3 hours at a time anyway, so carrying 42 or 44 gallons or whatever works is just fine, provided you have good fuel gages and/or a totalizer!  

Having said that, there have been times bucking a big headwind that I think that an Ovation would be nice, but then I think about +5-7 GPH and +100k on purchase price and I'm content again.  

[1980Mooney]

7 hours ago, ewilliams93 said:

Do you have any specific examples or things to look for outside of the norm. While I'm not flying light GA regularly we are a corporate flight department operating under the same 91 regs and I've been around acquisitions in the past so I have some idea.  

The later J models had a small modification that allowed the GW to increase to 2,900 lbs from 2,740 lbs. 

• All Serial Numbers 24-1686 and above had 2 tubes in the side of the steel cage with a slightly greater wall thickness (.049 vs .035)
• M20J Serial Number 24-3057 and above are certified at 2,900 lbs. GW
• M20J Serial Number 24-1686 through 24-3056 can be certified via STC (basically 1988 and newer)
  • https://mooneyspace.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=95270
  • It basically involves relabeling the ASI, checking the balance of your rudder and POH additions.

For your mission look for 1988 or newer.  Many will already have the GW increase STC.

[Schllc]

If you have been in aviation and acquisitions you already know this, but perhaps since it’s for personal use you are looking at it differently, but it’s the same thing…

The purchase price is almost irrelevant. If you fly and maintain whatever you buy, you will likely sell it for the same price.  Stretching your budget to buy the best equipped, most flown airplane you can find will save you money and downtime. 
whichever model you decide, buy the best example you can find. 

[ArtVandelay]

The later J models had a small modification that allowed the GW to increase to 2,900 lbs from 2,740 lbs. 
For your mission look for 1988 or newer.  Many will already have the GW increase STC.

It’s not that simple, my 78 has 60lbs more useful load than a 96 on controller.

They got heavier due to changes they made through the years. I’ve seen the UL range from 900-1050 in the Js, less in the Ks. If UL is important you need to check it on each plane.

[1980Mooney]

2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

It’s not that simple, my 78 has 60lbs more useful load than a 96 on controller.

They got heavier due to changes they made through the years. I’ve seen the UL range from 900-1050 in the Js, less in the Ks. If UL is important you need to check it on each plane.

Other than the modern fiberglass interior, starting with Ser. no. 24-3374, which replaced the cheap flimsy, (brittle over time), "Royalite" ABS interior panels and foam sound deadening material replacing cheap fluff fiber glass insulation, can you explain how they got heavier?  Yes some later ones came with the highly sought after fully adjustable (and heavier) pilot seats with arm rests.  But same engine, same steel frame, same skins, same tires.  We have all replaced the fluff insulation with more substantial sound deadening foam.   Later models came from the factory with more (heavier) avionics, and yes there are some out there for sale with practically original panels, but as owners upgrade avionics over time all the planes become lighter and more similar.

A 160 lb. GW improvement is a real improvement.  That said, it is basically a "paper" improvement.  All Mooney's built in the last 60 years fly on and are lifted by the same wing (same airfoil, same area, same lift).  They are all are suspended on the ground with the same exact shock discs in the landing gear.  Yet GW went from 2,450 lbs to 3,380 lbs.  The only fundamental difference is the power used to propel the plane.

I have pointed out previously that Rocket Engineering, got the FAA to certify that the earlier J's with the 2 thinner steel tubes, could be certified to 3,200 lbs. GW in the Missile conversion, without any structural modification.  On trips I fly at 3,200 lbs in the same airframe that I was previously limited to 2,740 lbs.  No Missile has ever had a structural issue.

[KSMooniac]

I agree with both of the above 2 posts re: useful load.  It is a fact that empty weights went UP as the J matured, and useful loads went down until Mooney bumped the gross weight to 2900 from 2740.  All of the incremental little changes from 77 to ~88 or so added up.  My suspicion is that they did not offer a retroactive GW bump to the earlier J's b/c that would potentially cut into sales of the new ones, since we know the earlier fuselages were/are fine at >>2740 lbs weights.  Off the top of my head:

• the fiberglass dorsal fairing + overhead vent system is quite a few pounds heavier than the 1977 metal dorsal fin + awful pop-up scoop on the cabin roof
• fiberglass belly vs. aluminum panels 
• 1977 front seats were very light, typically without headrests too.  The bench seat was also simple and light.  (I just installed Bravo seats in my 77 J and there is much more weight!)
• Panels and especially autopilots got increasingly loaded with heavy 1980's equipment, and extras like Stormscopes or other new developments in that decade
• Leather upholstery is heavier than vinyl or especially cloth
• Fiberglass wingtips vs. none
• 3rd/inner gear door vs. none (on the 205's and maybe later J's)
• Better insulation (a lot of the old stuff still exists in the fleet!)

All of that adds up, but these days it is largely irrelevant since any modern panel updates, even from 20 years ago now, will likely be lighter than removed equipment.  Interior updates could be lighter or heavier, depending on how they were done.  A paint job could add weight over the factory job.  Thicker windows could have been added.  

All of that to say every airplane can be different in terms of useful load, so you have to examine that for each candidate.  If your mission involves 4 people regularly, that should be a discriminating option!  My '77 has 1025 lbs useful load, but will go down when I weigh it soon since I've been transforming it into one resembling a newer model.  I suspect it will still be better than most 1986 J's, though, but maybe not a newer one with 2900 lb GW.

[Shadrach]

 

2 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Other than the modern fiberglass interior, starting with Ser. no. 24-3374, which replaced the cheap flimsy, (brittle over time), "Royalite" ABS interior panels and foam sound deadening material replacing cheap fluff fiber glass insulation, can you explain how they got heavier?  Yes some later ones came with the highly sought after fully adjustable (and heavier) pilot seats with arm rests.  But same engine, same steel frame, same skins, same tires.  We have all replaced the fluff insulation with more substantial sound deadening foam.   Later models came from the factory with more (heavier) avionics, and yes there are some out there for sale with practically original panels, but as owners upgrade avionics over time all the planes become lighter and more similar.

A 160 lb. GW improvement is a real improvement.  That said, it is basically a "paper" improvement.  All Mooney's built in the last 60 years fly on and are lifted by the same wing (same airfoil, same area, same lift).  They are all are suspended on the ground with the same exact shock discs in the landing gear.  Yet GW went from 2,450 lbs to 3,380 lbs.  The only fundamental difference is the power used to propel the plane.

I have pointed out previously that Rocket Engineering, got the FAA to certify that the earlier J's with the 2 thinner steel tubes, could be certified to 3,200 lbs. GW in the Missile conversion, without any structural modification.  On trips I fly at 3,200 lbs in the same airframe that I was previously limited to 2,740 lbs.  No Missile has ever had a structural issue.

Scott @KSMooniac is indeed correct.  I think an analysis of the 2900lb MGW M20J would show them to be the heaviest of their brethren.  The MGW increase merely helped them remain usable as they became heavier. I wish my F were eligible for the increase as it would give me a UL of 1220lbs, and a full fuel payload of 836lbs. 

It's odd to me that Mooney could have continued refining the mid body into a lightweight with excellent load hauling.  Rather than stick with what made them popular, they just did what everyone else was doing...more engine, more fuel and more weight and yes more speed. However, it's telling that the old, low powered models have better loading qualities. Things should not have evolved that way.

[Shadrach]

Almost any mid body will accomplish the mission described easily. There is plenty of room in a mid-body for 3 plus long guns and bags. Just make sure the plane has split, folding rear seats.  I have transported a 77" Hartzell in my plane with one seatback folded down, that is nearly twice as long as most common hunting rifles.