About to over-improve our 205. Open to any tips before we jump in!

[ttflyer]

In about two weeks we are going to get our panel upgraded.  Here's the goals for the project:

1.  Remove all legacy instruments.

2.  Install new custom panel

3.  Install dual (10" and 7") G3X

4.  Install remote comm and remote GTX345

5.  Remove as much Mooney "unobtainium" as possible.  All the switches and the warning panel will be removed and replaced with simple off the shelf items.  Panel light rheostat replaced with led lights and new rheostat.

There is already some pretty great stuff in the panel (750xi, GFC500 etc) so this will not be as big a project as starting from scratch. 

At the same time, our plastic, yokes and glare-shield are getting the Hector treatment.

Anyway, we're open to any suggestions!

Here's the current and (hopefully) future panels:

[EricJ]

That should be nice!

 

[KSMooniac]

Beautiful!  I agree with remote transponder and am glad to see a real audio panel in the stack, but I would upgrade to the PMA-450B as it is the best available.  I would move your USB charger over to the key panel area...maybe put it in the bottom position and put the key up higher.  (It looks like it disappeared from your current panel!)  Does the G3X allow removal of a dedicated clock?  Perhaps consider one of the Mid Continent Clock + USB charger units on the left side?

I'm a bigger fan of JPI engine monitors vs. Garmin EIS, but understand the appeal of the integrated solution.  I would love to have what you're proposing, but I would retain my EDM 900 and put it under your G5 in landscape format.  I think that would fit.  BTW, somewhere long ago I read of a design idea to make sure the horizon lines of the PFD and backup line up in cruise flight for quicker scan/comparison.  

Another thought... you might consider ditching the ignition key all together and go with the Electroair switch panel.  I think you can use it with conventional mags, or you can add an electronic ignition (or two!) "while you're in there."  I'm in the process of installing their dual system in my J right now, and it requires the switch panel as well as a battery status panel, along with a backup battery, some new breakers, etc.  If you're at all tempted to do such work in the future, now is the time to incorporate the components so you don't have to pull the whole panel out later!  (I'm still on my 1977 panel and made a new key panel on the left, and a new filler panel in the right side stack.)

It might be a good time to replace the engine control cables while everything is out too if yours are still original.  McFarlane makes fantastic new ones.

Good luck!  It looks like a great improvement.

[ArtVandelay]

Done something similar, but
I added AV20 to be a non Garmin option.
Panel mounted compass to clean up the view
Went with regular switches and separate CBs
I went with just upgrading JPI, less labor, and I like the presentation better.
Move the PTT switch from the right side to the left side.
Replace the control cables as mentioned, and replace the defrost hoses.
And yes I got rid of the clock.

[ttflyer]

48 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

Beautiful!  I agree with remote transponder and am glad to see a real audio panel in the stack, but I would upgrade to the PMA-450B as it is the best available.  I would move your USB charger over to the key panel area...maybe put it in the bottom position and put the key up higher.  (It looks like it disappeared from your current panel!)  Does the G3X allow removal of a dedicated clock?  Perhaps consider one of the Mid Continent Clock + USB charger units on the left side?

I'm a bigger fan of JPI engine monitors vs. Garmin EIS, but understand the appeal of the integrated solution.  I would love to have what you're proposing, but I would retain my EDM 900 and put it under your G5 in landscape format.  I think that would fit.  BTW, somewhere long ago I read of a design idea to make sure the horizon lines of the PFD and backup line up in cruise flight for quicker scan/comparison.  

Another thought... you might consider ditching the ignition key all together and go with the Electroair switch panel.  I think you can use it with conventional mags, or you can add an electronic ignition (or two!) "while you're in there."  I'm in the process of installing their dual system in my J right now, and it requires the switch panel as well as a battery status panel, along with a backup battery, some new breakers, etc.  If you're at all tempted to do such work in the future, now is the time to incorporate the components so you don't have to pull the whole panel out later!  (I'm still on my 1977 panel and made a new key panel on the left, and a new filler panel in the right side stack.)

It might be a good time to replace the engine control cables while everything is out too if yours are still original.  McFarlane makes fantastic new ones.

Good luck!  It looks like a great improvement.

Great ideas!  I'll be looking into the Electorair switch panel for sure! 

My original plan had the JPI EDM900 under the G5 just as you suggested but the shop talked me into the Garmin EIS.  Adding the 7" G3X was almost the same money and gave lots of options to move info around the panel so...

[ttflyer]

17 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Done something similar, but
I added AV20 to be a non Garmin option.
Panel mounted compass to clean up the view
Went with regular switches and separate CBs
I went with just upgrading JPI, less labor, and I like the presentation better.
Move the PTT switch from the right side to the left side.
Replace the control cables as mentioned, and replace the defrost hoses.
And yes I got rid of the clock.

Nice panel!  I love your switches. Any idea who made them?

[ttflyer]

21 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Done something similar, but
I added AV20 to be a non Garmin option.
Panel mounted compass to clean up the view
Went with regular switches and separate CBs
I went with just upgrading JPI, less labor, and I like the presentation better.
Move the PTT switch from the right side to the left side.
Replace the control cables as mentioned, and replace the defrost hoses.
And yes I got rid of the clock.

Curios:  Did your panel originally have the "hump" ours has?  I would like to remove the hump but it seems like that would be major surgery on our glare-shield so I think we've decided to leave it as is.

[KSMooniac]

My '77 has a flat glareshield and I love it compared to the hump that came later for the Mooney annunciator panel.  Hector could probably cut and repair yours to make it flat as a minor mod.

Understood re: Garmin EIS cost and flexibility, but the JPI functionality showing everything (all temps) on one screen and especially the critical normalize mode make it the superior choice IMO.  Until Garmin catches up, you'll have to pry my EDM 900 from my cold, dead hands.    Shops get commissions on sales, especially Garmin units...just sayin'.

Anyway, you're on a great path and I hope you post progress pics and details along the way.

[Aerodon]

12 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

My '77 has a flat glareshield and I love it compared to the hump that came later for the Mooney annunciator panel.  Hector could probably cut and repair yours to make it flat as a minor mod.

I found a flat glare shield and am halfway through removing the hump.  

Aerodon

[ArtVandelay]

Nice panel!  I love your switches. Any idea who made them?

C&K

[ArtVandelay]

Curios:  Did your panel originally have the "hump" ours has?  I would like to remove the hump but it seems like that would be major surgery on our glare-shield so I think we've decided to leave it as is.

No hump on my 78.

[ttflyer]

12 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

My '77 has a flat glareshield and I love it compared to the hump that came later for the Mooney annunciator panel.  Hector could probably cut and repair yours to make it flat as a minor mod.

Understood re: Garmin EIS cost and flexibility, but the JPI functionality showing everything (all temps) on one screen and especially the critical normalize mode make it the superior choice IMO.  Until Garmin catches up, you'll have to pry my EDM 900 from my cold, dead hands.    Shops get commissions on sales, especially Garmin units...just sayin'.

Anyway, you're on a great path and I hope you post progress pics and details along the way.

Completely agree on the JPI.  Your thoughts were mine exactly when I originally designed the panel with the JPI.  But...  Having the dual screen G3X with integrated garmin EIS seemed the better option for about the same money.  At the end of the day, I'm coming from a EDM700 so....  I think the Garmin will be a considerable upgrade.  Not to mention the ability to set limits on the Garmin that I believe you can not do on the JPI (Like yellow arc cylinder temperature at 380 degrees for example). 

Everything is a trade off.

[ttflyer]

8 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

No hump on my 78.

Was it modified from the hump or did the airplane come that way?   I don't know when the hump went into production.

 

[Pinecone]

2 weeks before start of work is a bit late to be making changes.

I am adding two USB power outlets.  One on each side of the panel.  I fly with pilot friends a lot.  And my former GF watched movies on an iPad in flight.

I have a JPI 830 and I love the display, but I have been convinced (see threads here) to do with the Garmin EIS.  WIth the 7" second screen or a tablet running GP, you can get more displayed full time.

I agree with  the idea od the PS-450B.  That is what I am doing.  The only thing you really lose is the ability to speak to the 750 instead of touching it.

[KSMooniac]

2 hours ago, ttflyer said:

Completely agree on the JPI.  Your thoughts were mine exactly when I originally designed the panel with the JPI.  But...  Having the dual screen G3X with integrated garmin EIS seemed the better option for about the same money.  At the end of the day, I'm coming from a EDM700 so....  I think the Garmin will be a considerable upgrade.  Not to mention the ability to set limits on the Garmin that I believe you can not do on the JPI (Like yellow arc cylinder temperature at 380 degrees for example). 

Everything is a trade off.

Definitely concur re: trade off sentiment.  For me, I would rather have the normalized mode instead of extra warning limits.  I look at the engine monitor more than anything else and will see trends, especially with the EGTs normalized, and don't feel the need for extra warnings.  YMMV, of course.  I don't know why Garmin has not implemented this extremely useful feature yet.

[201Mooniac]

15 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Done something similar, but
I added AV20 to be a non Garmin option.
Panel mounted compass to clean up the view
Went with regular switches and separate CBs
I went with just upgrading JPI, less labor, and I like the presentation better.
Move the PTT switch from the right side to the left side.
Replace the control cables as mentioned, and replace the defrost hoses.
And yes I got rid of the clock.

I also went with the AV20S as a third AI and a tie breaker in case both Garmin AIs decide to go out to lunch together.  The AV20S is also legal as a clock.

[wombat]

16 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

And yes I got rid of the clock.

What are you using to comply with 91.205(d)(6)?   That is for IFR flight, you must have "A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation."

Do you have the time showing on one of the screens?

[ttflyer]

1 hour ago, 201Mooniac said:

I also went with the AV20S as a third AI and a tie breaker in case both Garmin AIs decide to go out to lunch together.  The AV20S is also legal as a clock.

Is the clock on the G3X not legal?  I was under the impression it was.

[wombat]

19 minutes ago, ttflyer said:

Is the clock on the G3X not legal?  I was under the impression it was.

I didn't know the G3X had a time display.

 

Looking at this page: https://sarasotaavionics.com/avionics/g3x-touch-for-certified-aircraft

There is a time display in the lower right.

Probably configurable, so if you are going to fly IFR, you need to have that display part turned on.

Edited October 24, 2023 by wombat

[ArtVandelay]

What are you using to comply with 91.205(d)(6)?   That is for IFR flight, you must have "A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation."
Do you have the time showing on one of the screens?

AV20S and G3X both have times, plus Aera 660 if I need it.

[ttflyer]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

AV20S and G3X both have times, plus Aera 660 if I need it.

And if the excrement hits the rotary oscillator, I carry a spare on my wrist...

[201Mooniac]

4 hours ago, ttflyer said:

Is the clock on the G3X not legal?  I was under the impression it was.

I know this is a contentious issue here but I asked Garmin and their answer (through Trek) was that none of their devices meet the requirements of 91.205(d)(6).

[ArtVandelay]

I know this is a contentious issue here but I asked Garmin and their answer (through Trek) was that none of their devices meet the requirements of 91.205(d)(6).

On the G3X the time is in the bottom status bar as is the timer. I think the time is gotten from the GPS, not kept locally so maybe that’s why Trek said that, either way, as mentioned the AV20S does meet the requirement.

[EricJ]

25 minutes ago, 201Mooniac said:

I know this is a contentious issue here but I asked Garmin and their answer (through Trek) was that none of their devices meet the requirements of 91.205(d)(6).

Weird.   On the IFD a lot of the display area is configurable, and I seem to recall that putting the time, which has seconds, along the top bar met the requirements.   You can make it local or zulu, iirc.   I keep it zulu just because it makes it easy to tell how old ATIS is if it's close to the hour.

[Pinecone]

The AV-20 is a clock, that has an attitude display.  So yes, it is legally a clock.