Potential upgrade to a 1965 M20C. Am I crazy?

[EfficientFlying]

Hi all! I've been lurking here for about two years but I think I'm finally ready to make the plunge into Mooney ownership. Everyone has told me to buy the best plane you can rather than trying to upgrade it yourself (not only cost but downtime as well). One has come up for sale that really looks like it will tick all of my boxes for the next several years and I'm hoping for a sanity check to see if I'm overlooking something.

Firstly, why Mooney? I love the looks and the efficiency but I think it will also suit my main missions:
Mission 1 - Weekend Warrior
- 3 x 80kg (176lbs) people
- 150-300nm for $100 hamburgers
- Mostly fair weather flying

Mission 2 - Visiting Family
- Me 80kg (176lbs), wife 70kg (154lbs) kid (light) plus 50-60 lbs of luggage.
- 500nm with the option to do it sub 4 hours and one leg if bladders can make it.
- Light IFR - I want to make this a more reliable option than VFR has proved to be in my location.

The Pilot
Currently 130ish hours, primarily in a C172 (50ish) and a Sonex Tailwheel (70ish), so I will need CSU/RU and conversion training but I am comfortable with a slippery aircraft and airspeed management at least. I am VFR currently but will be sitting my instrument exam soon and following onto an instrument rating soon after and I would love to be able to train in my own aircraft.

The Aircraft
https://www.mooney.org.au/ifr-mooney-m20c-for-sale/

"Mooney M20C IFR 1965 Mark 21.
TTAF 4330 Hrs.
ETR 1619 Hrs. (381 Hrs TSO).
PTSO 15 Hrs. (303 Hrs TSN).

LASAR speed mods including Single piece belly kit, cowl closure, flap gap seals, etc.
IFR Avionics upgrade including Dual Garmin G5’s EFIS and HSI with winds aloft, TAS, Garmin GTN650 GPS/COM, Garmin GTX335 ADSB, 2nd Backup NAV/COM, 4 Place Intercom, Vertical Card Compass, Fuel Flow Meter, STEC Autopilot.
New Pilot/Copilot leather seats, lifetime Teflon hoses fitted.

Fresh IFR 100 Hrly recently completed.
$139K AUD ONO $89k USD"

There are a few M20Cs for sale in Australia, but most have 1700+ SMOH and all have basic VFR panels. This seems to have more than $25k USD of avionics upgrades, not including the installation costs, plus a low time engine and prop. I imagine the interior isn't amazing and the paint is close to 20 years old and is stored somewhat coastal (corrosion risk). 

A few final points:
- Pre Buy Inspection - We actually have a Authorised Mooney Service Centre a short flight from where it's currently located so they will be doing the pre buy.
- Definitely need to ask about the fuel tanks
- Hangars are neigh impossible to get close to major cities in Australia so I expect that it will need to live in the tie downs with annual Corrosion X treatments

Summary
If you got this far thank you, please share your thoughts about taking the plunge into Mooney ownership with this particular example and questions that I should ensure are addressed before making a purchase.   

 

[A64Pilot]

Get real serious with the corrosion inspection, pretty much anything else is recoverable, but corrosion will kill one stone dead especially one that old.

People get wrapped around the axle worrying about wheel bearings, brake disks and other things that are easily fixable, don’t be that person, forget about the nickel dime stuff, get real serious with looking for corrosion, any significant corrosion is cause to walk away

[Bobaran]

Just know that annuals can result in thousands of dollars beyond what you might have expected due to fixes you were not expecting. 

 

[Rusty Pilot]

Nice looking C.  I own a 1974 C with electric gear and flaps.  I love it.

[DXB]

5 hours ago, EfficientFlying said:

Hi all! I've been lurking here for about two years but I think I'm finally ready to make the plunge into Mooney ownership. Everyone has told me to buy the best plane you can rather than trying to upgrade it yourself (not only cost but downtime as well). One has come up for sale that really looks like it will tick all of my boxes for the next several years and I'm hoping for a sanity check to see if I'm overlooking something.

Firstly, why Mooney? I love the looks and the efficiency but I think it will also suit my main missions:
Mission 1 - Weekend Warrior
- 3 x 80kg (176lbs) people
- 150-300nm for $100 hamburgers
- Mostly fair weather flying

Mission 2 - Visiting Family
- Me 80kg (176lbs), wife 70kg (154lbs) kid (light) plus 50-60 lbs of luggage.
- 500nm with the option to do it sub 4 hours and one leg if bladders can make it.
- Light IFR - I want to make this a more reliable option than VFR has proved to be in my location.

The Pilot
Currently 130ish hours, primarily in a C172 (50ish) and a Sonex Tailwheel (70ish), so I will need CSU/RU and conversion training but I am comfortable with a slippery aircraft and airspeed management at least. I am VFR currently but will be sitting my instrument exam soon and following onto an instrument rating soon after and I would love to be able to train in my own aircraft.

The Aircraft
https://www.mooney.org.au/ifr-mooney-m20c-for-sale/

"Mooney M20C IFR 1965 Mark 21.
TTAF 4330 Hrs.
ETR 1619 Hrs. (381 Hrs TSO).
PTSO 15 Hrs. (303 Hrs TSN).

LASAR speed mods including Single piece belly kit, cowl closure, flap gap seals, etc.
IFR Avionics upgrade including Dual Garmin G5’s EFIS and HSI with winds aloft, TAS, Garmin GTN650 GPS/COM, Garmin GTX335 ADSB, 2nd Backup NAV/COM, 4 Place Intercom, Vertical Card Compass, Fuel Flow Meter, STEC Autopilot.
New Pilot/Copilot leather seats, lifetime Teflon hoses fitted.

Fresh IFR 100 Hrly recently completed.
$139K AUD ONO $89k USD"

There are a few M20Cs for sale in Australia, but most have 1700+ SMOH and all have basic VFR panels. This seems to have more than $25k USD of avionics upgrades, not including the installation costs, plus a low time engine and prop. I imagine the interior isn't amazing and the paint is close to 20 years old and is stored somewhat coastal (corrosion risk). 

A few final points:
- Pre Buy Inspection - We actually have a Authorised Mooney Service Centre a short flight from where it's currently located so they will be doing the pre buy.
- Definitely need to ask about the fuel tanks
- Hangars are neigh impossible to get close to major cities in Australia so I expect that it will need to live in the tie downs with annual Corrosion X treatments

Summary
If you got this far thank you, please share your thoughts about taking the plunge into Mooney ownership with this particular example and questions that I should ensure are addressed before making a purchase.   

 

The plane you've described is totally appropriate for the outlined missions, as long as the single back seat adult (or rapidly growing child) doesn't mind being slightly cramped.  3 full size adults plus full fuel and bags will get you right up to gross weight and may require slight adjustments in fuel load, but not at all prohibitive. You will want to check the useful load on the particular plane of interest, since there can be wide variation among old C's.  The pilot also seems totally appropriate for the plane as long as close attention to transition training and an appropriate instructor are available.  As far as prebuy, check the spar and the steel cockpit cage first, then go ahead with rest of inspection if you find those ok.

[S.C.]

A64Pilot is spot on.  The corrosion is key.  If the pre-buy goes deep enough it will help you avoid unnecessary heartache later.  I have a 65C and have needed to reseal the tanks and do some corrosion repair.  Both were missed in the pre-buy and it has delayed some of the other things I’ve been working on to bring my Mooney up to date.  (Both have been repaired).  
 

As for the mission, what you’ve described is a perfect fit for the M20C.  It’s a great light IFR plane and getting from here to there in a Mooney is a pleasure.  
 

Take your time in transitioning over, lots of pattern work to really nail the landings is important.  Energy management in the pattern will take some practice.  

[Ragsf15e]

Just a minor thought as it looks great and fills most of your needs… you have the smaller fuel tanks on a C, so 500 miles will generally require full fuel tanks and may or may not be possible with a one hour reserve depending upon your winds and fuel burn.  Most Cs aren’t too happy lean of peak, so don’t count on that.  It will work fine often, but not always.

[Hank]

39 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Just a minor thought as it looks great and fills most of your needs… you have the smaller fuel tanks on a C, so 500 miles will generally require full fuel tanks and may or may not be possible with a one hour reserve depending upon your winds and fuel burn.  Most Cs aren’t too happy lean of peak, so don’t count on that.  It will work fine often, but not always.

He should have 52 gal tanks, which have taken my C 4:45 twice, landing with 11-12 gallons. I prefer shorter legs than that, but sometimes the winds conspire against you. Even at book speed, 4-3/4 x 140 knots = 560 nm with 1:15 in reserve. And my departures these two times were traveling with my wife, loaded to max volume but not quite gross weight. 

The M20-C is a great machine!

[EfficientFlying]

Thanks for the replies. I've been doing a bit more forum surfing about corrosion and yes it looks like that needs to be the #1 factor and everything else can be fixed (with enough $$$)

I guess that it is probably safest to plan for a new paint job in the first 1-2 years of ownership. Since it will need to be outside for very likely the first 4-5 years, the two decade old paint probably won't be up to the task of keeping the metal safe. 

There is another one that is interesting, a 1977 M20C which was painted less than 2 years ago and has always been hangered. But 1700 SMOH and the VFR panel are the cons. 

Lots of things to think about. But I'm glad most people expect that it will fit the missions so I'm not too far off the mark. IFR reserves are only 45 mins in Australia but it is always safer to plan for well above that. If I'm expecting solid headwinds the trip to visit family may necessitate a fuel stop along the way. 

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

He should have 52 gal tanks, which have taken my C 4:45 twice, landing with 11-12 gallons. I prefer shorter legs than that, but sometimes the winds conspire against you. Even at book speed, 4-3/4 x 140 knots = 560 nm with 1:15 in reserve. And my departures these two times were traveling with my wife, loaded to max volume but not quite gross weight. 

The M20-C is a great machine!

Yeah I figured it would work most times fine.  My parents are 525nm and I do it a lot in my F with 50 gallon fuel load most times.  Last weekend we did it with ~15-20kts headwind though and I had to run Lop to make it with ~12 gallons from 55.  Loaded to 50 gallons on the way home with a tw and landed with 17.  The winds make a huge difference.

[LANCECASPER]

46 minutes ago, EfficientFlying said:

I guess that it is probably safest to plan for a new paint job in the first 1-2 years of ownership. Since it will need to be outside for very likely the first 4-5 years, the two decade old paint probably won't be up to the task of keeping the metal safe. 

Surface corrosion is the least of your concern. You can make sure any bare spots are touched up. That will have nothing to do with airworthiness, just cosmetics.

In fact the last thing I would do with an airplane that's going to have to be outside is spend $15,000 - $20,000 on new paint. Scour through the threads on here that deal with spar corrosion and roll cage corrosion - that's the corrosion you need to worry about. On your pre-buy it will take someone who really knows what they are looking for.

[Hank]

@EfficientFlying, save the.new paint job for after you're in a hangar..instead, concentrate on airworthiness issues and panel upgrades. Move into a hangar, then paint, and it will look good for a couple of more decades or longer.

My C was painted in the mid-90s, two owners ago, and is in its fourth hangar since then. This is a recent picture.

[cliffy]

Hello  I sent you a PM note Please look at it. 

Glad you are here

[Fly Boomer]

14 hours ago, EfficientFlying said:

There are a few M20Cs for sale in Australia, but most have 1700+ SMOH and all have basic VFR panels. This seems to have more than $25k USD of avionics upgrades, not including the installation costs, plus a low time engine and prop. I imagine the interior isn't amazing and the paint is close to 20 years old and is stored somewhat coastal (corrosion risk). 

You have already received several opinions, so I will just add that total cost of ownership will almost certainly be more than you expect.

[EfficientFlying]

4 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Surface corrosion is the least of your concern. You can make sure any bare spots are touched up. That will have nothing to do with airworthiness, just cosmetics.

In fact the last thing I would do with an airplane that's going to have to be outside is spend $15,000 - $20,000 on new paint. Scour through the threads on here that deal with spar corrosion and roll cage corrosion - that's the corrosion you need to worry about. On your pre-buy it will take someone who really knows what they are looking for.

Oh ok that's great news then. I can accept the few knots of speed loss from rough paint to keep that money available for other things.

I'll be going to the Mooney Service Centre, one would hope they know what they are doing! But I will make sure that those areas are the first things inspected.

2 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

You have already received several opinions, so I will just add that total cost of ownership will almost certainly be more than you expect.

I've had a good taste with the Sonex ownership, I like things to be running smoothly and I know that will cost me. I know that owning isn't always the wisest financial decision but my flying experiences have been better than those of my friends who are hampered by renting restrictions. I expect that to only increase with something as capable as a Mooney.

 

4 hours ago, Hank said:

@EfficientFlying, save the.new paint job for after you're in a hangar..instead, concentrate on airworthiness issues and panel upgrades. Move into a hangar, then paint, and it will look good for a couple of more decades or longer.

My C was painted in the mid-90s, two owners ago, and is in its fourth hangar since then. This is a recent picture.

Looks great! The color gradient is very cool.