Camguard at 10 hours?

[toto]

I’m breaking in a new cylinder.. I’ve now crossed the 10-hour mark running at high power using plain Phillips XC.

I’m planning to do an oil change, and I’m not sure how long after the cylinder break-in starts before adding Camguard is a good idea. The plane will be in the avionics shop for a while starting soon, and I don’t like the idea of an extended period sitting without Camguard, but I don’t want to harm the break-in by adding Camguard prematurely. 

Is 10 hours long enough? Or should I keep running plain XC?

[bcg]

I think you're supposed to give it 50 hours before adding any additives to the oil. 

[TheAv8r]

Ask the shop that did the cylinder overhaul or installed it, usually there's a warranty involved and that warranty will be voided if the break-in procedure they specify is not followed (which can include oil additives). Getting the specifics from them will ensure if something does happen you're covered. 

[kortopates]

Keep using the break-in oil till your confident oil consumption has stabilized. Good chance you’re there at 10 hrs if you’ve been running it hard. But it’s not determined by hours but rather oil consumption.
Also as advised, be sure to follow all instruction from whom ever is providing warranty. But few do on a cylinder.


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[Danb]

I just finished breaking in a new top, I did three 10 hard run-ins with an oil change after each 10 hours. Currently just changed to regular oil, cht temps are great oil consumption settled in after 10-12 hours, I’m strongly considering not using any additives I’ve heard conflicting statements concerning camguard in continental engines. I used camguard regularly in my bravo. I really wished I knew the best choice for my engine. My bravo never had an issue with camguard 

[N201MKTurbo]

If you fly regularly, I don’t see the need for camgaurd.

[cliffy]

If you fly regularly and its not required why?  

I've got 1,000 hrs on my overhaul using AS W100  or W80  and nary a problem noted. 

Have never seen even a flake of metal in the filter doing about 100 hrs per year. 

10-12 hrs / qt

[kortopates]

If you fly regularly and its not required why?  
I've got 1,000 hrs on my overhaul using AS W100  or W80  and nary a problem noted. 
Have never seen even a flake of metal in the filter doing about 100 hrs per year. 
10-12 hrs / qt

If you’re flying 100 hrs a year, that’s double the average private owner at 50 hrs a year.
But what can be conflicting or controversial about an additive package to reduce corrosion. It’s the number one cause of not making TBO; especially on an engine with the cam on top more susceptible to corrosion. It’s just added insurance but does cost money. Yet for me, oil and oil changes don’t even make a dent in my annual flying cost.

FWIW, Continental actually did a warranty experiment where they provided an extended warranty if you agreed to use Camguard throughout. Unfortunately they never shared what ever data they gathered or what they learned.


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[Danb]

So Paul engine is just broken in, I used camguard religiously in my lycoming Bravo but thought I read or heard that due to starter slippage on continental 550’s was prevalent with camguard. I still has a case left over if I’m misled I’ll add it tomorrow 

Dan 

[Schllc]

14 minutes ago, Danb said:

So Paul engine is just broken in, I used camguard religiously in my lycoming Bravo but thought I read or heard that due to starter slippage on continental 550’s was prevalent with camguard. I still has a case left over if I’m misled I’ll add it tomorrow 

Dan 

Some folks think it’s snake oil some are ambivalent, and some swear by it, I’m somewhere in the middle.  I think lancecasper had some starter issues he attributed to canguard, he isn’t a chicken little so I weighed his perspective. 
I average between 140-200 hours per year, and I use it at every oil change as well as when I add oil. 
I also talk to most of the guys who own my old planes and they all operate the same way I do, LOP and with cam guard and so far, knock on wood, no issues   
I use it, and have never had a problem, but one instance is hardly conclusive. 
I also think if you fly often its probably unnecessary. My concern is I don’t know when the inactivity will happen, so I thought the preparation can’t hurt. 
I can’t say I’m confident enough it it’s properties to. argue with someone over it, but it’s worked for me so I will continue to use the product.  

[LANCECASPER]

I used it all the time in two of the Bravos I owned (Lycoming).

After owning an Ovation (Continental) that had just had a top overhaul before I bought it, I started using it on the second oil change. My first start with the Camguard the starter slipped a little and a few starts later I was rebuilding the starter adaptor. The adaptor could very well have been on its way out and the Camguard may not have had anything to do with it.

On my first oil change with the Acclaim (Continental) with less than 200 hours total time, I added Camguard and within a few hours my starter was slipping and I was rebuilding the starter adaptor. These easily could have been coincidences, but based on the anecdotal experiences I've had, personally I am not going to use it on a Continental engine.

(Sidenote: both of these engines originally had Iskra (or otherwise known as Is-krap) starters, but had been changed out for the Energizer starters with less chance of a kickback. so I put most of the blame on the junk starters that Continental used as original equipment.)

[GeeBee]

I've use Camguard for over a thousand hours on an IO-550 and no issues. Mike Busch has done some studies on it, comparing oil analysis iron levels with and without Camguard and says it works. 

[toto]

3 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

If you fly regularly, I don’t see the need for camgaurd.

Understood, but my main concern here is about the plane sitting for a period of time in the avionics shop where it can’t be flown. 

[toto]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

I've use Camguard for over a thousand hours on an IO-550 and no issues. Mike Busch has done some studies on it, comparing oil analysis iron levels with and without Camguard and says it works. 

Aviation Consumer has compared Camguard against premix alternatives like Exxon Elite (which is no longer made), and Camguard performed impressively on corrosion resistance. 

[kortopates]

So Paul engine is just broken in, I used camguard religiously in my lycoming Bravo but thought I read or heard that due to starter slippage on continental 550’s was prevalent with camguard. I still has a case left over if I’m misled I’ll add it tomorrow 
Dan 

there are those that blame camguard for starter adapter slippage, including Niagara. They blame aeroshell multi-weight even more. But at Savvy we find those claims unwarranted.
The one thing that may have some truth to it is changing oil types on a high time engine since then it may be just enough to cause a worn starter adapter to start slipping.
Protecting the engine from corrosion is a much bigger priority in our opinion.


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[GeeBee]

Wow, I am running with scissors! I am using Camguard with Aeroshell 15W-50. 1000 hours and starter adapter is still good.

 

[toto]

15 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

Wow, I am running with scissors! I am using Camguard with Aeroshell 15W-50. 1000 hours and starter adapter is still good.

 

I switched from Aeroshell 15w50 to Phillips XC with Camguard several years ago, and have been very happy - seeing lower oil consumption and better compression numbers, though my primary concern is about corrosion. 

[GeeBee]

I am at a quart every 11 hours, I don't think it can run better than that.

 

[toto]

6 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

I am at a quart every 11 hours, I don't think it can run better than that.

 

At some point, isn’t there a concern that oil consumption is too low? I’ve never had an engine that consumed less than a quart every ten hours.

[GeeBee]

4 hours ago, toto said:

At some point, isn’t there a concern that oil consumption is too low? I’ve never had an engine that consumed less than a quart every ten hours.

Certainly there is, but 1 quart every 10-12 hours is not it.

[hubcap]

Myrtle’s TSIO-360-LB has about 900 hrs on it and it burns a quart about every 11-12 hours. I do add  the recommended amount of Camguard  with every quart of oil, but I can’t say it’s beneficial or not, having nothing to compare it with.

[A64Pilot]

On 9/3/2023 at 8:50 AM, toto said:

At some point, isn’t there a concern that oil consumption is too low? I’ve never had an engine that consumed less than a quart every ten hours.

I don’t think it’s a concern, but way back about WWII time frame the Brits who probably knew more than anyone did about recip engines conducted a series of tests and determined that an engine that used a moderate amount of oil had significantly less upper cylinder wear than one that didn’t, and that when an engine wore to the point that it started consuming oil, wear went down. Same thing derived at from different directions if you will.

Having said that I had a factory overhaul IO-520 that I swear when it burned a quart it was due an oil change because it had 50 hours on it, I ran that engine for over 1,000 hours before selling the airplane with zero issues, not even a fouled plug. Of course I flew it about 200 hours a year too, and most flights were long cross countries.

Any of the testing I’m aware of for corrosion prevention on aircraft engines that I’m aware of like Aviation Consumers is pretty suspect, it’s the best a non lab can do without serious money being spent, but it’s not much better than comparing what your flying buddies experience is or isn’t, like my IO-520, I don’t think it was common, it was an outlier.

My IO-540 that I overhauled with new Milleniums etc and everything meeting new spec and set up as perfectly in the middle of tolerances that I could had the exact same oil consumption after overhaul that it did just prior to overhaul, 1 gt ever 10 hours or so, so go figure.

If I were concerned about it sitting and corrosion, I’d put preservative oil in it, not someone’s additive, but honest storage oil, then upon bringing the aircraft out of storage drain it and keep it because you or a friend may need it in the future, or heck just run it until break-in’s over

I think depending on where you are, you have a realistic concern on storage.

I think this fits exactly what your looking for

https://phillips66lubricants.com/product/aviation-anti-rust-oil/

I’d also plug my exhaust and crankcase vent and take my air filter out, put it in a plastic bag and re-install it, this should keep any air from getting in the engine

[Pinecone]

There was an issue in the 90s or so with Continental cylinders. They changed how they made then and ended with virtually 0 oil consumption.  And a life span of a few hundred hours.

Too little oil consumption CAn be a big red flag.

[DXB]

On 9/2/2023 at 4:21 PM, toto said:

I’m breaking in a new cylinder.. I’ve now crossed the 10-hour mark running at high power using plain Phillips XC.

I’m planning to do an oil change, and I’m not sure how long after the cylinder break-in starts before adding Camguard is a good idea. The plane will be in the avionics shop for a while starting soon, and I don’t like the idea of an extended period sitting without Camguard, but I don’t want to harm the break-in by adding Camguard prematurely. 

Is 10 hours long enough? Or should I keep running plain XC?

Definitely long enough, most of break-in for a new steel cylinder happens in the first 1-2 hours.  When you ran it hard initially, you should have seen the temps be too high for 30 min or so then drop back to normal rapidly. Leaving out CG is good practice for break in of a cylinder, but in reality the anti-scuff additive in it probably wouldn't have made much difference.  You definitely want an anti-corrosive additive like CG contains in Phillips XC if the plane is gonna sit in the avionics shop because that oil lacks any such additive. You could go with one of the other anti-corrosive options mentioned above.  A dehydration system would be desirable to prevent corrosion if the plane could be down for months in the shop

[toto]

On 9/6/2023 at 2:48 PM, DXB said:

Definitely long enough, most of break-in for a new steel cylinder happens in the first 1-2 hours.  When you ran it hard initially, you should have seen the temps be too high for 30 min or so then drop back to normal rapidly. Leaving out CG is good practice for break in of a cylinder, but in reality the anti-scuff additive in it probably wouldn't have made much difference.  You definitely want an anti-corrosive additive like CG contains in Phillips XC if the plane is gonna sit in the avionics shop because that oil lacks any such additive. You could go with one of the other anti-corrosive options mentioned above.  A dehydration system would be desirable to prevent corrosion if the plane could be down for months in the shop

This is a chrome cylinder..  I have no prior experience with chrome break-in, but so far it doesn't seem that much different from steel.  Oil consumption was high for the first 2-3 hours, but it has gotten much closer to normal in the past 3 hours or so.  I guess the irony is that chrome shouldn't have problems with corrosion - it's the other three cylinders (and the rest of the engine) I'm worried about