What’s the Best Option for Upgrading Cabin Insulation?

[LANCECASPER]

12 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

Any idea what year(s) they made those changes?

1994 on the long bodies. (All Ovations (m20R) and on the M20M Serial #0181 and then 0184 through the end of the M20M production)

The K (Encore) was brought back and produced only in 1997 and 1998 and all 36 that they made had the new style interior.

If I had to guess, I would say that that the 1997 and 1998 Js had the new style interior for sure, and maybe a little earlier than that. They didn't stop making Js when they discontinued the K in 1990 so it could have been as early as 1994 or 1995 on the J for the new interior.

[amillet]

Our 97 J has the “Ovation interior “. I believe the 96J was the first to have this 

[Gee Bee Aeroproducts]

15 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

Are you recommending Ensolite without the PSA, and then using the high temp Velcro instead?

That is correct , no Psa

3m red heavy duty Velcro on the corners 

[RoundTwo]

As interior deconstruction continues into the hat shelf area, found this little crispy critter in his little fiberglass coffin behind the bulkhead. 

[Fly Boomer]

33 minutes ago, RoundTwo said:

As interior deconstruction continues into the hat shelf area, found this little crispy critter in his little fiberglass coffin behind the bulkhead. 

Not something you want to find.  That said, better dead than alive.

[Fly Boomer]

8 hours ago, Gee Bee Aeroproducts said:

That is correct , no Psa

3m red heavy duty Velcro on the corners 

Have you used, or do you have an opinion regarding the 3M Dual Lock product?

[RoundTwo]

It looks like they had quite an amusement park set up in the insulation around the hat rack. 

[Shadrach]

On 8/17/2023 at 8:56 PM, philiplane said:

do not use the thick black foam type insulation as linked above.

It turns into black dust in 5-8 years in warm environments, and it is heavy. Wrapped fiberglass is best, that's what the turbine crowd uses. Air bubble type is second best.

I'm already pulling it back out of customer planes, it makes a huge mess, black sticky crumbles everywhere. 

Are you speaking from personal experience or is this something you’ve read?

Your comment contradicts my first hand experience. We installed super soundproofing in 2009 and it has not changed texture since installed. I still have a partial roll in my uninsulated hangar. Still pliable with adhesive backing intact. We’re in the mid Atlantic where it has been seasonally subjected  to temps as low as 2°F and as hot 100°F.

The 1/2” adhesive weighs .737lbs per linear foot (12”X48”). I bought 9 linear feet at a total of 6.33lbs and had ove a foot left over. After weighing what was removed (we made roof panels with it as well) we actually lost a little weight (oz not pounds).

[ArtVandelay]

As interior deconstruction continues into the hat shelf area, found this little crispy critter in his little fiberglass coffin behind the bulkhead.

This brings up a couple of questions:

1.How did they can access and can you do anything about it?
2.Id inspect everything carefully, wires they chewed the insulation off, corroded metal, and where was their bathroom?
3.Did the mouse die of old age or something else and can this something else be 100LL, hydraulic brake fluid, etc?

[philiplane]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Are you speaking from personal experience or is this something you’ve read?

Your comment contradicts my first hand experience. We installed super soundproofing in 2009 and it has not changed texture since installed. I still have a partial roll in my uninsulated hangar. Still pliable with adhesive backing intact. We’re in the mid Atlantic where it has been seasonally subjected  to temps as low as 2°F and as hot 100°F.

The 1/2” adhesive weighs .737lbs per linear foot (12”X48”). I bought 9 linear feet at a total of 6.33lbs and had ove a foot left over. After weighing what was removed (we made roof panels with it as well) we actually lost a little weight (oz not pounds).

Personal experience. And now I've got to take it out of another Aztec starting next week. What a mess. Installed in 2012, and it's self-destructing. They also put it in behind the panel, on the firewall area, and it's fouling the control cross chain and avionics. This plane came from Texas so it sees 90-110 degree temps most of the year, in the hangar. I suspect this material lasts longer in cooler environments, but in the south, forget it. Wrapped fiberglass is lighter and doesn't hold water.

This foam does hold moisture, more so as it ages.

[Shadrach]

5 hours ago, philiplane said:

Personal experience. And now I've got to take it out of another Aztec starting next week. What a mess. Installed in 2012, and it's self-destructing. They also put it in behind the panel, on the firewall area, and it's fouling the control cross chain and avionics. This plane came from Texas so it sees 90-110 degree temps most of the year, in the hangar. I suspect this material lasts longer in cooler environments, but in the south, forget it. Wrapped fiberglass is lighter and doesn't hold water.

This foam does hold moisture, more so as it ages.

I don’t think it’s the same material. Closed cell vinyl nitrile foam does not absorb moisture.

[RoundTwo]

4 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

This brings up a couple of questions:

1.How did they can access and can you do anything about it?
2.Id inspect everything carefully, wires they chewed the insulation off, corroded metal, and where was their bathroom?
3.Did the mouse die of old age or something else and can this something else be 100LL, hydraulic brake fluid, etc?

The log books mentioned removing nest debris from the left wing root with subsequent cleaning and ACF50 treatment. There were also some gnawed wires that were repaired. In total, I found 3 bodies. It looks like they were nice enough to locate their bathroom over some duct tape, so everything looks OK. 
 

Every bit of insulation is being replaced, so it will all get cleaned well before anything goes back. Who knows, maybe this was part of that “old plane smell”.

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, RoundTwo said:

The log books mentioned removing nest debris from the left wing root with subsequent cleaning and ACF50 treatment. There were also some gnawed wires that were repaired. In total, I found 3 bodies. It looks like they were nice enough to locate their bathroom over some duct tape, so everything looks OK. 
 

Every bit of insulation is being replaced, so it will all get cleaned well before anything goes back. Who knows, maybe this was part of that “old plane smell”.

I would look for corrosion in places that are almost impossible to inspect.  How?  I have no clue.  But, I have read that a male mouse pees up to 1 ml per day (a cube 0.4 inches per side) in hundeds of little droplets every day.  For a colony of mice, that's a lot of pee all over your aluminum airplane.

[Fly Boomer]

5 hours ago, philiplane said:

Personal experience. And now I've got to take it out of another Aztec starting next week. What a mess. Installed in 2012, and it's self-destructing. They also put it in behind the panel, on the firewall area, and it's fouling the control cross chain and avionics. This plane came from Texas so it sees 90-110 degree temps most of the year, in the hangar. I suspect this material lasts longer in cooler environments, but in the south, forget it. Wrapped fiberglass is lighter and doesn't hold water.

This foam does hold moisture, more so as it ages.

Is there some reason or requirement for gluing the insulation to the outer skin?  Why not just cut it a tiny bit big, and press it into place?  It can't get away once the cabin walls are in place.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, RoundTwo said:

The log books mentioned removing nest debris from the left wing root with subsequent cleaning and ACF50 treatment. There were also some gnawed wires that were repaired. In total, I found 3 bodies. It looks like they were nice enough to locate their bathroom over some duct tape, so everything looks OK. 
 

Every bit of insulation is being replaced, so it will all get cleaned well before anything goes back. Who knows, maybe this was part of that “old plane smell”.

Sounds like you got off lucky. One of the issues with loose fiberglass is that though it will not absorb moisture, it will hold it in place. If a family of rodents build a nest in the vicinity of a steel tube and start doing their business, it will cause corrosion. I am not a fan of fiberglass in airplanes because it is an attractive building material for rodents. Even when backed or sandwiched, they can break it down into useable nesting material.
I prefer closed cell vinyl nitrile foam because in addition to having reasonable thermal insulation qualities it dampens noise, vibration and harshness  in a way that fiberglass does not.

[Ragsf15e]

7 hours ago, RoundTwo said:

It looks like they had quite an amusement park set up in the insulation around the hat rack. 

Might want to check carefully for pee induced corrosion back there…

[RoundTwo]

5 hours ago, philiplane said:

Personal experience. And now I've got to take it out of another Aztec starting next week. What a mess. Installed in 2012, and it's self-destructing. They also put it in behind the panel, on the firewall area, and it's fouling the control cross chain and avionics. This plane came from Texas so it sees 90-110 degree temps most of the year, in the hangar. I suspect this material lasts longer in cooler environments, but in the south, forget it. Wrapped fiberglass is lighter and doesn't hold water.

This foam does hold moisture, more so as it ages.

Do you have a brand name and product that isn’t any good?

[RoundTwo]

21 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Is there some reason or requirement for gluing the insulation to the outer skin?  Why not just cut it a tiny bit big, and press it into place?  It can't get away once the cabin walls are in place.

Soundex does just that, cut oversize and use tape around the edges to make removal easier. I’m now in the process of adhesive removal, some from PSA foam and some from brush on contact glue.

[RoundTwo]

5 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Might want to check carefully for pee induced corrosion back there…

My eyes are wide open to such possibilities but so far I haven’t seen any damage other than some benign chewing. There were some pee spots on the top side of the ceiling panels, in some of the valleys, but nothing on the aluminum so far.

[Shadrach]

3M 08987 Adhesive remover

 

[RoundTwo]

29 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Sounds like you got off lucky. One of the issues with loose fiberglass is that though it will not absorb moisture, it will hold it in place. If a family of rodents build a nest in the vicinity of a steel tube and start doing their business, it will cause corrosion. I am not a fan of fiberglass in airplanes because it is an attractive building material for rodents. Even when backed or sandwiched, they can break it down into useable nesting material.
I prefer closed cell vinyl nitrile foam because in addition to having reasonable thermal insulation qualities it dampens noise, vibration and harshness  in a way that fiberglass does not.

All of the walls around the tubes had Mylar backed open cell PSA backed foam. This is a 1988 J and SBM208 came out 8/89. I believe the sidewall foam I’m removing was factory installed because there is nothing in the logs about changing it out, but I could be wrong about that.

[RoundTwo]

4 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

3M 08987 Adhesive remover

 

So far I haven’t needed to buy anything because 100LL works great on the PSA residue and mineral spirits breaks down the contact cement really well. 3M will be my go to if I run into problems.

[Gee Bee Aeroproducts]

We sell toluene, 20.00 per qt

same as 3m adhesive remover 

 

gloves

well ventilation or mask

brass brush

perfect with brass brush to remove 1300 or barge cement.

 

GB

[Denis Mexted]

do not use the thick black foam type insulation as linked above.

 

Yes I’ve had the same. Black closed cell with silver on one side. 15 years later it was dust and a nightmare to remove.

I don’t know the brand name but it was sold by an aviation store.

The insulation I’m pulling out of the F now I’m super impressed with. Absolutely no degradation of it after nearly 50 years. EXCEPT the plastic coating it leaves behind stops the solvent working on the adhesion. 
But no corrosion under it.

I’m seeing corrosion on the roof where the foam was adhered with contact cement. No corrosion in the baggage locker which was primed. 

I briefly tried Toluene last night and that appears to soften the plastic film. More joy awaiting me this weekend. 

 

Cheers,

Denis.

[Shadrach]

40 minutes ago, Denis Mexted said:

do not use the thick black foam type insulation as linked above.

 

Yes I’ve had the same. Black closed cell with silver on one side. 15 years later it was dust and a nightmare to remove.

I don’t know the brand name but it was sold by an aviation store.

The insulation I’m pulling out of the F now I’m super impressed with. Absolutely no degradation of it after nearly 50 years. EXCEPT the plastic coating it leaves behind stops the solvent working on the adhesion. 
But no corrosion under it.

I’m seeing corrosion on the roof where the foam was adhered with contact cement. No corrosion in the baggage locker which was primed. 

I briefly tried Toluene last night and that appears to soften the plastic film. More joy awaiting me this weekend. 

 

Cheers,

Denis.

Post some picture please. The 50 year old insulation that I pulled out of my always hangared F was anything but impressive.