1964 M20C Avionics Inquiry

[EricJ]

6 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

I have absolutely no desire to lose the redundancy and readability of my old airspeed indicator and altimeter.  That fact on its own supports my desire to have G5s.  Lower price, better battery life and greater screen size make them even better to me.

I've had two alternator failures (actually just field wire failures) since I've had the G5s, and both times I flew home with most electrical things shut off.    The last time I turned *everything* off, including the G5s, just to save the battery so I'd have comm, transponder, flaps, and gear when I got home.   I really liked being able to do that, since I still had the air instruments.   It made me think that I may not want a full glass panel, since retaining the air instruments does offer more backup options and reliability.    I like glass panels, too, but for my own airplane that I fly more and take on longer trips, I really like the old-school backup.

[hammdo]

Exactly why I have redundant systems - just in case…

-Don

[McMooney]

3 hours ago, EricJ said:

I've had two alternator failures (actually just field wire failures) since I've had the G5s, and both times I flew home with most electrical things shut off.    The last time I turned *everything* off, including the G5s, just to save the battery so I'd have comm, transponder, flaps, and gear when I got home.   I really liked being able to do that, since I still had the air instruments.   It made me think that I may not want a full glass panel, since retaining the air instruments does offer more backup options and reliability.    I like glass panels, too, but for my own airplane that I fly more and take on longer trips, I really like the old-school backup.

did the batteries in the g5's not work?  why turn them off ?

[EricJ]

12 minutes ago, McMooney said:

did the batteries in the g5's not work?  why turn them off ?

Cycling them usually reduces their useful lifespan, and I didn't need them, so I just let them turn off.    If I'd needed them it's easy to turn them back on on their own battery.

[McMooney]

6 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Cycling them usually reduces their useful lifespan, and I didn't need them, so I just let them turn off.    If I'd needed them it's easy to turn them back on on their own battery.

good to know, i just got mine a couple of months back.  also a new to me avionics master, hehe

never knew how bad i had it till i got a switch that turned everything off at once

[toto]

4 hours ago, Andy95W said:

I saw a guy who installed 2x GI-275s and nothing else.  It looked ridiculous. 

You could just put a 10” magnifying glass in front of each of them. Boom.. instant glass panel

 

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, toto said:

You could just put a 10” magnifying glass in front of each of them. Boom.. instant glass panel

 

[Shep.G]

So just an update on my avionics dilemma. Spoke with Dynon reps over the phone, and visited a couple of my closest avionics shops (Horizon at KTYS, KHKY (not garmin certified), and KGKT (also not garmin certified, but Dynon certified)

As you can tell from the panel, next to nothing is really ready to move to the next generation (MAYBE the comm as a backup - that ILS does not work). Also, as some have mentioned here and the mechanics confirmed, the riveted panel on the mooney (and the condition of my panel in general) essentially require a new panel to be fashioned and the old one trashed.

The Dynon rep was very helpful, but unfortunately alerted me that their AP is only about to be released for K/E models in October of this year. He had no timeline for the C, if one even exists.

 

This is the part where you guys talk me off the cliff, because at this point I'm leaning towards the "buy once, cry once" philosophy. Which is looking to be close to a $50K  pricetag for one of the following two routes:

 

1. Dynon skyview package:

          10" MFD display, ADSB In/Out, Transponder, Comm, Backup EFIS-D10A w/ battery, EIS, associated cables - $20,447 

          Avidyne IFD 440 - $13989

          Need backup GPS or NAV so let's say Garmin 175 GPS - $5695

          Subtotal not including taxes or install - $40131

2. Garmin package: 

          G3X - $12795

          GTN 650xi - $13595

          GMA 345 - $2245

          GNC 255 - $5195

          uAvionix TailbeaconX + AV30 to solve ADSB In/Out & Transponder & Backup to G3X - $3398

          Subtotal - $37228

 

First observation, to be honest I did NOT expect a Garmin package to be cheaper - but install deltas TBD.

Next, with Garmin at least there is a guarantee of the possibility to add AP later.

While at the GKT shop, I hopped in a guy's Saratoga who just finished the Dynon upgrade - two 10" displays, IFD 540 & 440, bunch of custom panel work. Although it looked super clean, I was told that job totaled $120k. So ocean's beyond my budget. But I will say the Dynon/Avidyne combo did look good.

 

I realize I'm being long winded here and apologies for that. This is just potentially the biggest single purchase I've ever made, and more expensive than what I paid for the airframe itself ($28K in 2021). Perusing trade a plane places me in an odd position where, the price tags on other Mooneys almost encourages me to go through with this (as I'll get exactly the avionics I want). But let's just say 40-50k on this upgrade and 30k (AT BEST) for an overhaul (reminder, she's at 1950 SMOH) and we're up to $110k, and you don't see very many rangers listed at that price.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Shep.G

[ArtVandelay]

The Garmin prices I assume are full retail, they certainly are much higher than I remember from a few years ago. As a rule of thumb, the installation will cost 50% of the price of the avionics.

[Fly Boomer]

9 hours ago, Shep.G said:

So just an update on my avionics dilemma. Spoke with Dynon reps over the phone, and visited a couple of my closest avionics shops (Horizon at KTYS, KHKY (not garmin certified), and KGKT (also not garmin certified, but Dynon certified)

As you can tell from the panel, next to nothing is really ready to move to the next generation (MAYBE the comm as a backup - that ILS does not work). Also, as some have mentioned here and the mechanics confirmed, the riveted panel on the mooney (and the condition of my panel in general) essentially require a new panel to be fashioned and the old one trashed.

The Dynon rep was very helpful, but unfortunately alerted me that their AP is only about to be released for K/E models in October of this year. He had no timeline for the C, if one even exists.

 

This is the part where you guys talk me off the cliff, because at this point I'm leaning towards the "buy once, cry once" philosophy. Which is looking to be close to a $50K  pricetag for one of the following two routes:

 

1. Dynon skyview package:

          10" MFD display, ADSB In/Out, Transponder, Comm, Backup EFIS-D10A w/ battery, EIS, associated cables - $20,447 

          Avidyne IFD 440 - $13989

          Need backup GPS or NAV so let's say Garmin 175 GPS - $5695

          Subtotal not including taxes or install - $40131

2. Garmin package: 

          G3X - $12795

          GTN 650xi - $13595

          GMA 345 - $2245

          GNC 255 - $5195

          uAvionix TailbeaconX + AV30 to solve ADSB In/Out & Transponder & Backup to G3X - $3398

          Subtotal - $37228

 

First observation, to be honest I did NOT expect a Garmin package to be cheaper - but install deltas TBD.

Next, with Garmin at least there is a guarantee of the possibility to add AP later.

While at the GKT shop, I hopped in a guy's Saratoga who just finished the Dynon upgrade - two 10" displays, IFD 540 & 440, bunch of custom panel work. Although it looked super clean, I was told that job totaled $120k. So ocean's beyond my budget. But I will say the Dynon/Avidyne combo did look good.

 

I realize I'm being long winded here and apologies for that. This is just potentially the biggest single purchase I've ever made, and more expensive than what I paid for the airframe itself ($28K in 2021). Perusing trade a plane places me in an odd position where, the price tags on other Mooneys almost encourages me to go through with this (as I'll get exactly the avionics I want). But let's just say 40-50k on this upgrade and 30k (AT BEST) for an overhaul (reminder, she's at 1950 SMOH) and we're up to $110k, and you don't see very many rangers listed at that price.

What are you doing for a transponder?  The GTX-345 is popular.

[Shep.G]

39 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

What are you doing for a transponder?  The GTX-345 is popular.

Actually bringing up a great question, since the saratoga's skyview/avidyne combo I viewed did not have a visible transponder. Dynon lists ADSB In/Out Mode S transponder as part of it's entire package...but does not list Mode C, and I did not see Mode C in the saratoga. Will have to ask about that.

The intent was to copy his setup (a much cheaper version), or with the Garmin setup I would trade my tailbeacon into uAvionix (they're running a deal right now) and upgrade to the TailbeaconX + AV30. In this scenario, the AV30 now acts as the transponder for the Tailbeacon. However, I'm only seeing Mode S there so again - will have to check back with the avionics shop.

 

Here's a picture of his just for reference

[65MooneyPilot]

There is a lot to think about on these upgrades. We have all put a lot of thought into our panels. There is all kinds of options. My question is would your A&P be interested in installing your panel and if you are mechanically inclined you could help? Here is why, G5’s, GPS175 and most radios can be installed by A&P/IA’s. Find a 6 pack panel for the pilot side, install the G5’s, GPS 175, GAD29D, GAD13, GMU 11, temp prob, NAV COM with Glide slope receiver(Trig for instance) Get an Approach Systems Hub and order all the wiring harness from them . All A&P capable installs. It’s a lot of work but it may save some money and you will be autopilot ready if you want to make that step. Actually all the avionics can be purchased from Approach Systems. This would be a lot less if your A&P had a reasonable rate and you were able to help. 
Hammdo’s panel the left side would definitely work for you. Your instruments are currently all over the place in your panel and I highly recommend before instrument training you rearrange the instruments. I am not sure how the VOR Indicator made it over to the right side of the panel. Good luck, any questions you can pm me. This is my latest second G5 upgrade. I went in small increments  to get this far.

[aerochet]

I have a 63 C with moderately-well equipped panel. I do not have an engine monitor, but I want to wait until engine overhaul to add this. I am at 2,000 hours on the engine (all 4 cylinders were replaced in the past 500 hours) and the engine runs great, so I am not planning to overhaul until an issue triggers the overhaul. I want to add the CiES fuel senders now, but I don’t have anything to display on until I add the EIS down the road. I am thinking of buying the Aerospace Logic display for fuel now and removing it in a few years when the EIS is installed. I would sell the display later. Any thoughts??

[TheAv8r]

6 hours ago, aerochet said:

I have a 63 C with moderately-well equipped panel. I do not have an engine monitor, but I want to wait until engine overhaul to add this. I am at 2,000 hours on the engine (all 4 cylinders were replaced in the past 500 hours) and the engine runs great, so I am not planning to overhaul until an issue triggers the overhaul. I want to add the CiES fuel senders now, but I don’t have anything to display on until I add the EIS down the road. I am thinking of buying the Aerospace Logic display for fuel now and removing it in a few years when the EIS is installed. I would sell the display later. Any thoughts??

I see your line of thinking with waiting until the overhaul to install the engine monitor, but just playing that out... what if your engine doesn't need an overhaul until 2500 hrs? 3000hrs? Do you really want to wait 1000hrs to have the engine monitor? Then there's the wasted money on buying and hooking up the Aerospace Logic displays to the CIES senders vs. doing what you really want. I would also bet that the money to hook up your existing engine monitor to a new engine is not considerable - mostly installing the probes, and most of the primary probes would have to be installed to your existing equipment when you'd swap the engines out regardless, so the only "new" work would be the EGT probes more than likely.

I'd say just get it taken care of now, do the CIES senders, a primary engine monitor and enjoy it for the next few years. Plus, being able to have better insight into your engine... maybe you'll get even more life out of it before you have to overhaul.