Is this a LEGAL approach??

[Fly_M20R]

I filed and got clearance for a night IFR flight to a private airpark (15FL) with no published approaches and had a nearby airport (KLCQ) as a waypoint in my flight plan where I was planning an approach to get under the ceiling and then fly VFR to the destination airport. However, when I contacted Jax Center to request the RNAV 28 approach at KLCQ which is 5 NM from the destination airport I was told by the controller that she could not "legally clear me for the approach unless I was landing at KLCQ". First time since I started flying that route that ATC denied me the approach to then continue on to destination. I always cancel IFR prior to reaching the MAP and continue the flight to destination either SVFR or VFR.

What do you think? I have a feeling it will generate some controversy.... 

Chris

 

 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

When I started flying, I kept my Mooney at the now abandoned Aurora Airpark in Colorado. We used to do approaches in to Buckley ANG and then circle to land at Aurora. It was sometime in the 90s that they said that was not allowed. Civilians are not normally allowed to land at the military base (they did have a flying club), so you can't just file for there.

That being said, I would just file to the airport with the approach and if you can cancel in the air, and it is VFR at both airports, they can't really stop you from flying anywhere you want after you cancel. Just don't put your final destination on the flight plan. 

[N201MKTurbo]

I can see why they don't want you to do this. When you are given a clearance, it is to the destination airport. seeing that there is no procedure for getting to the airpark IFR, how can that work?

I know you can file to an airport without an approach, but you need to file an alternate with an approach. Have you tried just filing to your destination and letting them vector you below the clouds? might actually be easier. You could file Lake City as the alternate.

[Fly_M20R]

37 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I can see why they don't want you to do this. When you are given a clearance, it is to the destination airport. seeing that there is no procedure for getting to the airpark IFR, how can that work?

I know you can file to an airport without an approach, but you need to file an alternate with an approach. Have you tried just filing to your destination and letting them vector you below the clouds? might actually be easier. You could file Lake City as the alternate.

Yep, not only did I have KLCQ as a waypoint in my flight plan but also had it as an alternate (or nearby KGNV - can't remember). I personally know both Jax approach and Jax Center controllers who have stated that if I have an airport in my flight plan they cannot really deny me an approach. Since this was a completely new event for me I even contacted FSDO at Orlando after my flight and talked with them extensively about it. FSDO saw no regulation that would prohibit me from doing what I described. A Jax approach controller told me that John Travolta would do that all the time flying into his private airfield near Ocala - approach into Ocala and then fly VFR to his destination. I am aware of other pilots at this airpark and elsewhere who do this as well.

On my most recent night flight to 15FL I had filed same route with KLCQ in it and the controller said he had to keep me down at 4000 feet because whenever they see an airport in the flight plan they are assuming I will do an approach  and he needs to hand me over to Center at 4000 ft (I like 6000 because I have more options in case of an engine failure). Therefore, every controller I have spoken with, including FSDO, is on board except for this one controller who may not be fully familiar with all the procedures. You can hear her being insecure on her radio transmissions. 

For this flight it did not matter since ceilings were high enough for her to clear me down to the MEA. However, had ceilings been below MEA I would have definitely needed the approach. No other way around it. I would have told her that I plan to land at KLCQ so she would feel "legal". Then I would cancel IFR in the air and fly on VFR to my destination. Had ceilings been low enough to be unable to keep the usual VFR cloud clearance (3-152) I would have requested a special VFR clearance inside E airspace after cancelling IFR, but I can imagine she would be quite confused with that. That would put me in a pickle all because of her insecurity.

Thank you for your thoughts!! 

Chris

[rbp]

48 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

When you are given a clearance, it is to the destination airport

to be clear, when you are given a clearance, its to the clearance limit in CRAFT.  eg, you can file to a VOR where its reported to be VOR

[N201MKTurbo]

1 minute ago, rbp said:

to be clear, when you are given a clearance, its to the clearance limit in CRAFT.  eg, you can file to a VOR where its reported to be VOR

You are correct of course. You can file to anywhere even a random lat lon. 

[Fly_M20R]

1 minute ago, N201MKTurbo said:

You are correct of course. You can file to anywhere even a random lat lon. 

Agree with both of you. I have always filed to 15FL so that they are aware of my intentions, with an alternate as per regs. The Jax approach controller even anticipated it. 

CK

[rbp]

14 CFR § 91.169 (2) If no instrument approach procedure has been published in part 97 of this chapter and no special  instrument approach procedure has been issued by the  Administrator to the operator, for the  alternate airport, the  ceiling and visibility minima are those allowing descent from the  MEA, approach, and landing under basic  VFR.

the way i read this is that if the destination airport has no IAP, you must file a legal alternate 

did you have an alternate in the original FLP?

[Fly_M20R]

17 minutes ago, rbp said:

14 CFR § 91.169 (2) If no instrument approach procedure has been published in part 97 of this chapter and no special  instrument approach procedure has been issued by the  Administrator to the operator, for the  alternate airport, the  ceiling and visibility minima are those allowing descent from the  MEA, approach, and landing under basic  VFR.

the way i read this is that if the destination airport has no IAP, you must file a legal alternate 

did you have an alternate in the original FLP?

I did since weather conditions were MVFR at the time I filed. If weather had been IFR I would have filed another nearby airport as the alternate since it has an ILS.

The wording in the paragraph you quote could be confusing such that it could be interpreted that if the destination and alternate have no approach then the weather minima need to be above the MEA. I am sure that they want it to mean that if there is no approach at the destination then the weather for the alternate must be with minimums above the MEA. FAR's are full of this type of wording.... 

[N201MKTurbo]

It isn't the MEA you have to get below to get to VFR. It is the OROCA and then the MVA. The OROCA in your area is 1800 ft. The MVA is a little harder to come by, but if you call the TRACON or center on the phone they will tell you.

[Fly_M20R]

4 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

It isn't the MEA you have to get below to get to VFR. It is the OROCA and then the MVA. The OROCA in your area is 1800 ft. The MVA is a little harder to come by, but if you call the TRACON or center on the phone they will tell you.

MVA there is 1800 ft

[PeteMc]

Getting back to your original question...  I'd actually call whatever Approach you were talking to and ask to talk to the Manager to get some clarification.  Approach it with him/her as a learning experience and ask why it isn't a "legal" approach and what would they recommend you do in  the future.

If getting and Approach into an airport that you're not landing at, then I'm in deep Sh*t as I had a LOT of those kind of Approaches way back when I was doing my Inst. training.  I'm guessing a LOT of others here have done the same.  So it may end up being more of a Learning Experience for the Controller once you discuss it with the Manager. 

[Fly_M20R]

10 hours ago, PeteMc said:

Getting back to your original question...  I'd actually call whatever Approach you were talking to and ask to talk to the Manager to get some clarification.  Approach it with him/her as a learning experience and ask why it isn't a "legal" approach and what would they recommend you do in  the future.

If getting and Approach into an airport that you're not landing at, then I'm in deep Sh*t as I had a LOT of those kind of Approaches way back when I was doing my Inst. training.  I'm guessing a LOT of others here have done the same.  So it may end up being more of a Learning Experience for the Controller once you discuss it with the Manager. 

Good point PeteMc! I actually consulted with FSDO in Orlando as I mention toward the end of the video and they said it was legal what I did. Nothing in the FAR’s that prohibit what I filed.

Yep! We would all be in deep Sh**#t if it were not legal since we have all done round robin flights doing approaches at other airports to then come back to our home field which may or may not have a published approach.

Chris

 

[PT20J]

+1 for calling the TRACON. They have all sorts of procedures and LOAs and such that the FSDO probably doesn't know about. If it happens again, I'd just politely ask for a phone number and go over it on the ground.

[N201MKTurbo]

The infamous Stanfield stack south of Phoenix is crazy busy 24/7 with people flying practice approaches into KCGZ. All the approaches are flown VFR, center won’t even think about controlling you. If you really want to cause trouble, actually file to KCGZ. I’m not sure what they would do if you did. There is no way they could get you even close to any of the published approaches.

[Ibra]

I don’t know the specific rules for US, however, this is a recurring theme across all countries there are all sort of Letter Of Agreement, local procedures and rules that gets entangled in such interpretation, especially at night, it’s worth calling the unit to understand what they or you did not understand  

If conditions are marginal, you are likely to ask for SVFR,

- Who decides on weather ATC or PIC? this depends on “weather gates” and where you are versus 700ft agl, 1000ft agl, 1200ft agl, above FAF, within pattern, or inside TMA, on RVR runway, or circle to land...

- Where you can cancel IFR? cancelling IFR between FAF-MAPT to fly SVFR is tricky (as ATC needs to provide separation in CTR zone for SVFR), I still think everyone will agree that after touching on runway under IFR, you can depart VFR or SVFR right away elsewhere

There are not that many alternatives (some jokes), 
- Ask for IFR as “50nm circle to land” under IFR
- Ask for VFR with no separation while in TMA: just say you have both aerodromes in sight, 100km visibility and 10000ft ceiling and you can separate from terrain and traffic because it’s CAVOK day from your cockpit 

Few things I would ask,

- Does that ATC unit allow SVFR transits at night? or SVFR is only used for takeoff & landing at night?

- Does that ATC unit allow SVFR in TMA? or it’s SVFR in CTR only?

- Is TMA Echo airspace and it's built like an inverted cake? then cancel IFR and fly VFR as you wish elsewhere (Echo is only controlled for IFR, you don’t even need to talk on radio for VFR in Echo at night? let alone ask for VFR clearance)

If Echo airspace is some sort of lateral adjacent TMA to the airports, then it's not clear who decides on weather/clearance to operate SVFR? especially with low ceiling at night, I think visibility is always owned by the pilot...

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by Ibra

[Fly_M20R]

On 6/7/2023 at 12:00 AM, PT20J said:

+1 for calling the TRACON. They have all sorts of procedures and LOAs and such that the FSDO probably doesn't know about. If it happens again, I'd just politely ask for a phone number and go over it on the ground.

Hi PT20J,

 

You always have great comments. I have personally spoken to other controllers at Jax Center who have said that this is perfectly legal. Unfortunately, the controller I dealt with seems to lack some knowledge or motivation to provide the service. I have the number already and have not called it since at present I prefer not to generate animosity because I have to fly that route once or twice a week and hopefully don’t run into same controller.

If she denies it again and I truly need the approach then will actually call the number from the air which takes me to the supervising controller directly and ask that he or someone else get me cleared. By the time I am at 2000 - 3000 ft I have sufficient cell reception to be able to make the call. It is always nighttime when I fly there and I really don’t want to play games and burn fuel unnecessarily while flying around in a hold.

Thank you for your great comments!

[Ibra]

On 6/5/2023 at 5:23 PM, rbp said:

the way i read this is that if the destination airport has no IAP, you must file a legal alternate 

Do ATC in US see your alternate that you have in the flight plan?

In Europe (UK & France), they don’t have it handy from the flight plan they see in their systems, they rely on pilot to tell them where he wants to go, the operational alternate you chose is not necessarily the filed alternate (say an airport you overflew 20min ago) 

However, when planing you need filed one or two alternates and these need weather to dispatch (including those without procedure) 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Ibra

[EricJ]

On 6/6/2023 at 9:50 PM, N201MKTurbo said:

The infamous Stanfield stack south of Phoenix is crazy busy 24/7 with people flying practice approaches into KCGZ. All the approaches are flown VFR, center won’t even think about controlling you. If you really want to cause trouble, actually file to KCGZ. I’m not sure what they would do if you did. There is no way they could get you even close to any of the published approaches.

I was in the stack doing safety pilot duty last month.   It was about six airplanes deep and somebody called in claiming that they were actually IFR like it gave them priority or something.   You could just about hear the collective, "So?" from everybody in the stack.   They had to go to the top like everybody else.   I was doubting that they were really IFR.     

[Fly_M20R]

Would filing a YFR flight plan be another option? YFR being start IFR to KLCQ as the clearance limit followed by VFR to 15FL.

Garmin Pilot and Foreflight both support it and apparently ATC computers accept it. That would make it totally clear as to what intentions are and controller would then have no excuses whatsoever in clearing for an approach at KLCQ.