High Fuel Prices

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

Pretty sure the Iranians aren’t flying their F-14’s though.  

https://www.businessinsider.com/f14-tomcat-fighter-top-gun-legend-and-iran-best-jet-2022-6#:~:text=Today%2C Iran is the world's,successive F%2FA-18.

Iran is the only country still operating F-14s.

I have had a few acquaintances from Iran and I have asked them about this. In Iran there is a vibrant group of machine shops and other shops that are copying and reproducing spare parts for them. Not only do they have the F-14s, but they have a good collection of Boeings they keep flying. The ultimate Owner Produced Parts.

[Pinecone]

Maybe they should start making Mooney parts.

 

[1980Mooney]

On 12/14/2022 at 6:58 AM, A64Pilot said:

A much more serious concern is our alienation of Saudi Arabia and their increasing reliance on Russia for weapons technology because we pulled out the Air Defense missiles from Saudi, to say nothing of China’s sugaring up to the Saudi’s, if oil starts trading in Yen as opposed to U.S. dollars it’s not going to help us.

I suspect that any country the relies upon Russia for weapons is having second thoughts after witnessing their dismal performance in Ukraine. 

 

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

I suspect that any country the relies upon Russia for weapons is having second thoughts after witnessing their dismal performance in Ukraine. 

 

I can’t fathom that, frankly the Ukraine can’t even be a third world military, can’t be, I’m not maligning their bravery but their lack of a large standing professional military and hardware to go with it.

There must not be much left of Russia’s military, just as I strongly suspect there isn’t much left of ours.

Russia’s inability to simply walk over them is unfathomable. Many think we “lost” Vietnam or were beaten where that’s not even close to being true, simple truth is that we had a Politician who had set himself up like Hitler and there was no political will to “win”, which I’m glad there wasn’t because I don’t believe it was winnable without us doing things we shouldn’t do.

What strongly concerns me is my suspicion that all this military aid we are sending is being pulled from active Military stock and isn’t being replaced, it’s not as if there is a Military Walmart that you can go to and buy hardware out of stock.

If nothing else that’s shed loads of money taken out of our savings account, just like the Strategic Oil Reserve, are we replenishing it?

First Arab Israeli war we stripped Europe of almost all our weapons and ammunition, if Russia had wanted Germany they could have simply taken it. But it was either that or let Israel fall. 

[jaylw314]

5 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I can’t fathom that, frankly the Ukraine can’t even be a third world military, can’t be, I’m not maligning their bravery but their lack of a large standing professional military and hardware to go with it.

I'd point out that a significant portion of the Soviet military-industrial complex was based in Ukraine before it broke up.  In aviation, the Antonov bureau was the big one, of course.  There was a lot of stuff they inherited, although granted older stuff but could still be used to good effect for defense.  And while they had no large standing army, they've got a big advantage in personnel now since they're treating this like a war, not a cockamamie 'special military operation'

[flyboy0681]

19 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I can’t fathom that, frankly the Ukraine can’t even be a third world military, can’t be, I’m not maligning their bravery but their lack of a large standing professional military and hardware to go with it.

There must not be much left of Russia’s military, just as I strongly suspect there isn’t much left of ours.

Well, next years military budget about to be signed by the president totals nearly a trillion dollars, so it must be going toward something. Talk about "unfathomable".

[Fly Boomer]

3 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

Well, next years military budget about to be signed by the president totals nearly a trillion dollars, so it must be going toward something. Talk about "unfathomable".

I say give the military whatever they want.  I don't mind paying $500 for a toilet seat, as long as my country is carrying the biggest stick.  The last thing I want is being told what to do by an invading force.

[A64Pilot]

You can’t tell much about where the money really goes. A trillion for the Military? I wonder if they even get half

For example the Farm bill is money for farmers right?

Nope in 2018 76% of it was for “nutrition” AKA food stamps or now I guess SNAP.

https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/farm-commodity-policy/farm-bill-spending/

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

I'd point out that a significant portion of the Soviet military-industrial complex was based in Ukraine before it broke up.  In aviation, the Antonov bureau was the big one, of course.  There was a lot of stuff they inherited, although granted older stuff but could still be used to good effect for defense.  And while they had no large standing army, they've got a big advantage in personnel now since they're treating this like a war, not a cockamamie 'special military operation'

Antonov was pretty small compared to Sukhoi, Tupolev, MiG, Ilyushin, Yak, Sokol, etc., which Putin has merged into all one, big state-majority-owned aircraft company.    Don't underestimate the Russian aerospace capability.   Their main limitation is their economy, which is why the oil and gas thing is so important to them.   The Ukrainian thing is largely driven by natural gas reserves in eastern Ukraine.

 

[jaylw314]

31 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Antonov was pretty small compared to Sukhoi, Tupolev, MiG, Ilyushin, Yak, Sokol, etc., which Putin has merged into all one, big state-majority-owned aircraft company.    Don't underestimate the Russian aerospace capability.   Their main limitation is their economy, which is why the oil and gas thing is so important to them.   The Ukrainian thing is largely driven by natural gas reserves in eastern Ukraine.

Antonov is small, but the tip of the iceberg in terms of Ukrainian military industrial infrastructure--I was including naval and ordnance industries.  And for every bureau Ukraine inherited, the Russia correspondingly 'lost' that bureau when the USSR broke up.

The natural gas stuff is definitely a thing, but I think it culturally and ideologically it goes way beyond that.  I mean, good grief, the USSR nee Russia inflicted the Holodomor on Ukraine, it's hard to imagine the Russian state has moved on from those attitudes

Anyways, apologies for the major thread drift 

Edited December 16, 2022 by jaylw314

[Eight8Victor]

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

You can’t tell much about where the money really goes. A trillion for the Military? I wonder if they even get half

For example the Farm bill is money for farmers right?

Nope in 2018 76% of it was for “nutrition” AKA food stamps or now I guess SNAP.

https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/farm-commodity-policy/farm-bill-spending/

Don't forget about the 10% for the big guy.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Eight8Victor

[A64Pilot]

18 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

I say give the military whatever they want.  I don't mind paying $500 for a toilet seat, as long as my country is carrying the biggest stick.  The last thing I want is being told what to do by an invading force.

Having been in for 20 years and being close but not in acquisitions, I can tell you that the Military is run by Civilians. Spending in the Military is tightly controlled and there are programs that reward you in cash if you turn in fraud, waste and abuse. Good friend received a large award when he discovered that he could build an IHADDS helment from parts for significantly less than Honeywell was getting for a new one.

 think it funny every time I see the Military being accused of huge spending overruns being blamed on Generals, when in fact they neither hold the purse strings and to a great extent don’t decide what or how much is bought and certainly not the price.

That’s Congress at the high level and Department of the Army Civilians at the lower ends and other levels of Government in the middle, various Secretaries.

Generals prosecute the orders given to them by Civilians, and in my opinion anyway that’s the way it should be, done correctly they are allowed to plan and execute the orders. It breaks down when the Government particularly the President  takes the Commander in Chief title seriously and starts being the one that’s picking bombing targets etc personally.

Military exists and if done correctly trains to do two things, kill people and break things, it breaks down when it’s used as a captive social experiment.

But it has been and can be used for humanitarian relief too, example big warships can “make” a phenomenal amount of pure drinking water a day and has significant airlift capability to distribute relief aid particularly a helicopter landing ship.

I’ve participated a couple of times as part of JTF-6 in surveilling the  Southern Border, an Apache Squadron can shut down as in nothing bigger than a rabbit can cross without being tracked on a screen line of 100 miles or so, and it’s good Military training as all we are doing is executing a Screen line, which is an Air Cavalry mission.

Ground units were often used too, Military has surprisingly good recon assets of course 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Task_Force_North

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

But it has been and can be used for humanitarian relief too, example big warships can “make” a phenomenal amount of pure drinking water a day and has significant airlift capability to distribute relief aid particularly a helicopter landing ship.

I’ve participated a couple of times as part of JTF-6 in surveilling the  Southern Border, an Apache Squadron can shut down as in nothing bigger than a rabbit can cross without being tracked on a screen line of 100 miles or so, and it’s good Military training as all we are doing is executing a Screen line, which is an Air Cavalry mission.

Ground units were often used too, Military has surprisingly good recon assets of course 

Makes perfect sense.  Young, well-trained, well-provisioned people with the most sophisticated equipment.  When not deployed, they can be kept busy training, but missions like you are describing can be good for the soldiers, solve a problem, and maybe even provide a proving ground for some of our newer equipment.

[A64Pilot]

58 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Makes perfect sense.  Young, well-trained, well-provisioned people with the most sophisticated equipment.  When not deployed, they can be kept busy training, but missions like you are describing can be good for the soldiers, solve a problem, and maybe even provide a proving ground for some of our newer equipment.

That has been for years the domain of the National Guard. Many who join the Guard do so in the theory they will help their neighbors in time of need.

I can remember one time in Texas a school bus tried crossing a flooded crossing with predictable results and many kids were washed away and it got dark pretty quick. Using the Apache’s FLIR we could have found them quickly but for some reason we didn’t launch. Several were saved, but we could have found them faster and saved more.

For example I was chase sometimes when the Army was testing the Sikorsky Firehawk, it’s a kit that goes on a UH-60 and is a lot of work but is removable so the Military mission can be done. It can suck water out of a swimming pool at a hover and carries 1000 gl, so it’s much more effective than a fixed wing as it can suck water out of any available source and keep dropping 1000 gls at a time

Apparently at least California has need of firefighting aircraft, but due to politics and frankly a bunch of money to be made the dozens or maybe hundreds of the National Guards UH-60’s sit on ramps only occasionally flying training missions. I’m sure those Guard guys would love helping their neighbors and as the aircraft are already paid for and the Aircrews also they could hugely affect the fire fighting, but Civilian firms would lose out.

https://fireaviation.com/tag/sikorsky-s-70i/

When I was Enlisted in Savannah Ga, there was a program named MAST, or Military Assistance to Safety and Traffic.

What it was in any location where the facilities existed the Military would fly Medivac mission for the surrounding area, in almost always UH-1’s. Almost always with a Tramua Surgeon on board and at least one Nurse, a Huey isn’t small so it had room for loads of equipment and a Dr and a Nurse etc. Due to its room and load carrying capacity the Huey was a better Medivac and could carry more than one patient. It worked really well, but the local hospital wanted a Lifeflight as frankly it’s a money maker, for awhile they worked together, if a Mercedes was in a wreck Lifeflight launched, old cheap car, MAST did, but soon it went to court and the Army was forced to cease and desist, because the Federal government was seen as hurting a civilian business.

MAST was excellent training, a morale booster for the crews and the public wasn’t billed so they weren’t saddled with an enormous bill for an accident. But it interfered with making money, just as Military Firehawks would.

Even the USCG who used to help out and “rescue” boats that had broken down and needed help were made to cease and desist in court by Seatow and Boat US. They can only assist if the Commercial tow agencies decline, so now pretty much the Coasties can rescue crews the boat has to be abandoned or sometimes sunk as it’s a navigation hazard, where they used to would save you and your boat.

While the Military can’t and shouldn’t be involved in law enforcement (Posse Comistus act) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act  State militia (National Guard) is exempt

there is a lot that they could do for the public that would be good training for them and as the taxpayer has already paid, give something back to the taxpayer and help improve morale. But civilian agencies would lose money so it’s not done.

[Echo]

30 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

That has been for years the domain of the National Guard. Many who join the Guard do so in the theory they will help their neighbors in time of need.

there is a lot that they could do for the public that would be good training for them and as the taxpayer has already paid, give something back to the taxpayer and help improve morale. But civilian agencies would lose money so it’s not done.

So are you saying that National Guard, citizen soldiers that have day jobs should be mobilized outside of their annual training  (two week deployment) or that they should be mobilized within state for various "missions" outside of their combat training emphasis, i.e. Infantry training for likely combat missions?  Is emptying pools going to aide combat rediness?  Not being snarky, just trying to better understand your direction?  

Maybe we should send Guard to Ukraine, or is sending untracked financial and military aide enough?  $31 trillion National debt and Ukraine is NOT on our continent?  Is this a good use of taxpayers support, sending to Ukraine, one of the most corrupt nations military and financial aide?  How about peace instead of war?  I am for that.  

Edited December 17, 2022 by Echo
spelling

[EricJ]

Notwithstanding the numerous errors in the most recent posts, it should be remembered that drifting into politics is how threads get locked on mooneyspace.    It should be obvious to the most casual observer that that does not serve the interest of the users of an aviation marque forum.

[Echo]

Why is U.S. actively supporting a non NATO country?  Maybe we should NOT have taken Ukraines's nukes?  THEY were a deterrent to the devastating land grab war that has destabilized the world.

Peace, NOT War is the answer.  U.S. has commitment to NATO, NOT to ongoing war in Ukraine.

[Echo]

Ukraine war and US national energy policy DIRECTLY impact fuel prices to include G.A.

[A64Pilot]

Guard trains two weeks a year and one weekend a month I think, but the Aviation units train a LOT more than that, there is even a not insignificant number of full time Guard people in Aviation.

There IS a fire season, so yes I’m saying that use the guard during fire season to man some number of “ready” birds to fight fires.

If your guard your under the threat of being activated at any time, several served six month deployments to Kuwait for example, well after the war was over, with I’m sure a couple of months training up for it, travel time there and back and recovery so it blew probably the better part of a year. 

I bet if you surveyed Guard members you would find many if not most would be OK with a month on month off rotation for fire season etc. 

Were you under the impression that Guard members only worked weekends every so often?

[A64Pilot]

30 minutes ago, EricJ said:

 it should be remembered that drifting into politics is how threads get locked on mooneyspace. 

I think the best course of action if a political biased post is made to just ignore it

[EricJ]

1 minute ago, A64Pilot said:

I think the best course of action if a political biased post is made to just ignore it

The even better course of action is to not make them.

 

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

Guard trains two weeks a year and one weekend a month I think, but the Aviation units train a LOT more than that, there is even a not insignificant number of full time Guard people in Aviation.

There IS a fire season, so yes I’m saying that use the guard during fire season to man some number of “ready” birds to fight fires.

If your guard your under the threat of being activated at any time, several served six month deployments to Kuwait for example, well after the war was over, with I’m sure a couple of months training up for it, travel time there and back and recovery so it blew probably the better part of a year. 

I bet if you surveyed Guard members you would find many if not most would be OK with a month on month off rotation for fire season etc. 

Were you under the impression that Guard members only worked weekends every so often?

The National Guard has Additional Flight Training Periods, (AFTPs), to go above and beyond the normal Drill routine to keep Aviators current.  Experienced pilots, flying less complicated aircraft, such as Hueys, might only get 24 AFTPs/year, while Apache pilots get 96.  These 4-hour blocks can be combined with Drill periods, sometimes, but are mostly used on evenings after your normal work schedule, (why I have such a high percentage of NVG time).

About 10% of the NG are federal technicians, and about 10% are T-32 active duty.  A much smaller percentage, and only a few in any given state, are T-10 active duty.  So, roughly 80% are M-Day/traditional NG.

The people in the NG have switched significantly between the late-1980s to the present, and are in the process of switching again, (not necessarily back).  Prior to the big deployment for Desert Storm, we were there to truly be 'reserve' forces that would be called on when the Big One Went Up and maybe for local disasters, not for Kosovo, (for sake of example), let alone for a steady stream of deployments such as we have seen sine 9-11.  Thus, NG Soldiers have a completely different mind-set from each previous era.  For the past 20 years, many were more likely to not have a job/career they could not easily take time from.  Again, as I said, this may change, too.

The National Guard is very restricted in how it can apply various sources of money to how it operates.  For example, if it is employed in strictly state-work, then all costs must be met via state funds.  (This prevents NG assets from becoming "governors' flying clubs" and other corrupt practices.)  There are more than a dozen different "pots" of money that can only be used for specific operations, so just because there is money allocated to the NG, it cannot necessarily be used to accomplish a specific purpose.

Yes, it is all very complicated. I used to teach a 2-hour class to my AD compatriots about the Guard and Reserves.  At the end, they would usually just admit they did not understand either and would seek an expert when the time came to deal with them.  (Hell, I was the expert, and I admit there is so much that I do not know!)

[Echo]

I appreciate the education.  Thank you.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Echo
spelling

[Pinecone]

FYI, the $600 toilet seats and hammers was due to procurement rules at the time.  And due to those situations, systems have been setup to handle these.  

At the time, the only way for the gov to buy something was to put out a Request for Proposal Request to Bid to supply a toilet seat or hammer.   It cost several thousand dollars to run the paperwork to put out an RFP or RFB, accept the proposals or bids, evaluate them, award the contract, place the order, get the item, confirm that it need the requires, process the invoice, pay it, and close out the paperwork.

So what happened was the gov asked a contractor that had at least part of their contract for certain things as cost plus.  Cost plus is cost of the item, plus cost of processing, plus profit.

So gov asked Lockheed for a toilet seat.  Lockheed does certain work, and passes the request to a subcontractor, who does the same.  Finally, some small contractor goes to Home Depot, buys a toilet seat, and send it to the next higher level.  And bills their cost plus.  Never higher up does the same, and so forth.  Finally the toilet seat is delivered to the gov and a final invoices of all the costs plus at each level.

Now realize, this is still cheaper than the paperwork for an RFP/RFB.

Now, offices have office credit cards.  So if you need a toilet seat, you fill out a simple internal form, you supervisor and maybe their supervisor signs it, and the admin person calls and orders it.

And finally, realize, the Government discovered the problem and worked out a want to deal with it, BEFORE the story ever broke.

[Fly Boomer]

2 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

FYI, the $600 toilet seats and hammers was due to procurement rules at the time.  And due to those situations, systems have been setup to handle these.  

It was just an example in the press a few decades ago.  My point was that I don't want people who don't have the big picture picking nits on things that they don't understand, and that ultimately don't matter.