Tail light?

[OSUAV8TER]

1 hour ago, amillet said:

@OSUAV8TER  My 97 J has this red beacon light on the belly. All the LED lights I have found look like the size and shape of a soup can. Are there any LEDs that are more streamlined to replace this light?

The WAT 908525D is the LED direct replacement for that light. Here is a photo of it installed on a Mooney. I don't know of any other solution that is a direct replacement for that beacon light.

[OSUAV8TER]

51 minutes ago, Aerodon said:

Aveo engineering make these for experimental aircraft: https://www.aveoengineering.com/supernova-fs-daylite/

What are the legalities of installing a non-TSO'd light when it is not required lighting on an aircraft.

Don

 

 

 

 

A TSO is an FAA performance standard that aircraft have to meet (in the case of lights) for certain pieces of equipment. So the idea that you can slap these on an experimental aircraft and conduct flight operations, say for VFR night, is bogus. Even experimental aircraft have to comply with TSOs if they want to fly at night. Remember your minimum equipment required for a Private Pilot to operate at night VFR under FAR 91.205? Two of those requirements are an "Approved position lights," and "An approved aviation red or aviation white anticollision light system on all U.S.-registered civil aircraft..." Reference - https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.205. That "Approved" word is key. That is a TSO. Specifically they are TSO-C30c (aircraft position lights) and TSO-C96a (anti-collision lights).   If you go with a non-TSO'd light, technically you cannot operate at night because you do not have the minimum equipment required to do so. TSO'd lights go through a battery of tests for light intensity, color, field of coverage, electromagnetic interference with previously installed equipment, etc. Now since the Mooney has a strobe light system, which qualifies as an Approved anti-collision light system, can you drop the belly beacon? Possibly. Check your POH to see what the requirement is for minimum equipment on the belly of your aircraft. Does Mooney require it? If so, removal could be completed as a minor or major alteration (field approval with an FAA 337).  

Looking at that Aveo beacon, it is not even the same size as that teardrop beacon that you have on the belly of the Mooney currently. So you'd have to fabricate some sort of mounting adapter to install a non-TSO'd beacon. Do you want to go through that to install a beacon that probably shouldn't be on there that is not a direct fit? Your decision. 

[carusoam]

@OSUAV8TER

There was a question about the tail light / strobe above…

Does the modern Mooney tail have a white light and strobe combination?

Or is it just a strobe?

The wing tips both have rear facing white bulbs…

What does WAT recommend for the tail light that is mounted at the rudder bottom…

Best regards,

-a-

[OSUAV8TER]

31 minutes ago, carusoam said:

@OSUAV8TER

There was a question about the tail light / strobe above…

Does the modern Mooney tail have a white light and strobe combination?

Or is it just a strobe?

The wing tips both have rear facing white bulbs…

What does WAT recommend for the tail light that is mounted at the rudder bottom…

Best regards,

-a-

Definitely a combined nav/strobe light. As far as I know, there are not TSO approved replacement lights for the rear facing position lights on the wings. Whenever I encounter a Mooney that is equipped like this, the tail has an OEM light that has a combined nav/strobe light. So the wiring is already there for something like an Orion 500.

[carusoam]

19 hours ago, Aerodon said:

I'm not sure if you are spreading misinformation here.  For sure My M20K has two rear facing white lights on the wingtips and one rear facing white strobe on the rudder (no nav light or wiring for it on the rudder).  The earlier K's had a strobe / nav combination on the rudder and no wingtip white nav lights.

I'm reasonably sure that if there are aft facing white nav lights, then there is not an aft facing rudder nav light and vice versa, even on later models.

 

Aerodon

 

 

Don,

Check your tail light and see if it has a white nav in there as well…?

See the note from Mr. Gallagher above…

Best regards,

-a-

[rbp]

I checked -- the light on the rudder of my Bravo is a strobe only.
the rear position light is on the trailing edge of the wingtips
no idea what it is on a K

[OSUAV8TER]

18 minutes ago, rbp said:

I checked -- the light on the rudder of my Bravo is a strobe only.
the rear position light is on the trailing edge of the wingtips
no idea what it is on a K

Can you share a photo? I’ve never seen a strobe only. What I’ve seen is a lot of lights are burned out and don’t know what they have. I’m guilty of it. My rear strobe was inop for years before I became a WAT dealer.

[Niko182]

2 minutes ago, OSUAV8TER said:

Can you share a photo? I’ve never seen a strobe only. What I’ve seen is a lot of lights are burned out and don’t know what they have. I’m guilty of it. My rear strobe was inop for years before I became a WAT dealer.

On the older bravo, ovations, and eagles, the tail light was a strobe only. It used to be that way on my eagle before i went to LEDs and now i have a nav strobe rear light.

[Aerodon]

6 hours ago, OSUAV8TER said:

Definitely a combined nav/strobe light. As far as I know, there are not TSO approved replacement lights for the rear facing position lights on the wings. Whenever I encounter a Mooney that is equipped like this, the tail has an OEM light that has a combined nav/strobe light. So the wiring is already there for something like an Orion 500.

I checked the wiring diagrams, I think it is safe to say the M20K;s (231's) all had combine strobes on the rudder.  From Serial number 25-1000 onwards (252's) had a strobe only in the rudder and two halogen lights on the back of the wingtips.  If either one of these fail then you are not legal for night flight (the 110 degree coverage).

I've taken these off (forced to, because the Aveo wingtip does not have them) and replaced with a TSO'd combined strobe and white nav light.  

 

Aerodon

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Aerodon]

7 hours ago, OSUAV8TER said:

A TSO is an FAA performance standard that aircraft have to meet (in the case of lights) for certain pieces of equipment. So the idea that you can slap these on an experimental aircraft and conduct flight operations, say for VFR night, is bogus. Even experimental aircraft have to comply with TSOs if they want to fly at night. Remember your minimum equipment required for a Private Pilot to operate at night VFR under FAR 91.205? Two of those requirements are an "Approved position lights," and "An approved aviation red or aviation white anticollision light system on all U.S.-registered civil aircraft..." Reference - https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.205. That "Approved" word is key. That is a TSO. Specifically they are TSO-C30c (aircraft position lights) and TSO-C96a (anti-collision lights).   If you go with a non-TSO'd light, technically you cannot operate at night because you do not have the minimum equipment required to do so. TSO'd lights go through a battery of tests for light intensity, color, field of coverage, electromagnetic interference with previously installed equipment, etc. Now since the Mooney has a strobe light system, which qualifies as an Approved anti-collision light system, can you drop the belly beacon? Possibly. Check your POH to see what the requirement is for minimum equipment on the belly of your aircraft. Does Mooney require it? If so, removal could be completed as a minor or major alteration (field approval with an FAA 337).  

Looking at that Aveo beacon, it is not even the same size as that teardrop beacon that you have on the belly of the Mooney currently. So you'd have to fabricate some sort of mounting adapter to install a non-TSO'd beacon. Do you want to go through that to install a beacon that probably shouldn't be on there that is not a direct fit? Your decision. 

Hi James,

I'm not disagreeing with you, my Mooney came with forward facing recognition lights (optional), wingtip and rudder strobes, wingtip red and green, and wingtip aft white.  The optional forward facing recognition lights have been removed, and the strobes have been replaced with TSO'd equipment.  The Nav lights have been replaced with LEDS on the wingtip and rudder.

The plane never had a belly or fin red strobe and I'd like to install one.  Not for in-flight anti collision but I like have a permanently on one to show people on the ground that the plane is 'live' and to show me that I have forgotten to turn the master off.  Not that I have done it in many years, but I am in the habit of always looking back at the plane before I walk away from it to check for tiedowns, loose cover straps, forgotten luggage and 'master off'.

I like the Aveo streamlined version, they have a much more expensive TSO's version.  I just don't like the shape of the Whelen unit, and given that I don't have to give any consideration to pre-existing mounts or holes, I have a choice.

Aerodon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Aerodon]

On 1/8/2022 at 6:48 PM, StevenL757 said:

Pic. #6 - Lastly, Aero-Lites makes a rearward-facing/trailing-edge LED replacement for the incandescent A508 white position light.  Although it isn't approved, you're ok to install it, as it isn't part of your airplane's approved anti-collision light system.

Steven,

I disagree with you.  The aft facing nav lights are part of the red/green/white position light system and should be TSO'd.

And secondly, I followed your advice and bought these, they do not fit my Mooney.  I have subsequently seen a Mooney conversion kit that seems to convert from one bulb holder to another.

Don't worry I'm not 100% sure that it was you that posted these first and I'm not grumpy with you or the person who did.  But it's a reminder to go back and look a the parts manual and the wiring diagrams for your individual Mooney before buying unapproved stuff.  Or any aftermarket stuff for that matter.

Aerodon

 

 

[jaylw314]

33 minutes ago, Aerodon said:

Steven,

I disagree with you.  The aft facing nav lights are part of the red/green/white position light system and should be TSO'd.

And secondly, I followed your advice and bought these, they do not fit my Mooney.  I have subsequently seen a Mooney conversion kit that seems to convert from one bulb holder to another.

Don't worry I'm not 100% sure that it was you that posted these first and I'm not grumpy with you or the person who did.  But it's a reminder to go back and look a the parts manual and the wiring diagrams for your individual Mooney before buying unapproved stuff.  Or any aftermarket stuff for that matter.

Aerodon

 

 

The position lights aren't required at all for day VFR flight, but they are required (and required to meet the position light TSO) for night VFR.  I've always assumed they are also required for IFR, but I'm not sure where it's written.

Much of the homebuilt crowd uses non-TSO'd position lights just for daytime visibility (whether they help or not), but they aren't allowed to fly at night as a result.

AFAIK the only external light that does not have a TSO is the landing light.

[Aerodon]

2 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

The position lights aren't required at all for day VFR flight, but they are required (and required to meet the position light TSO) for night VFR.  I've always assumed they are also required for IFR, but I'm not sure where it's written.

Much of the homebuilt crowd uses non-TSO'd position lights just for daytime visibility (whether they help or not), but they aren't allowed to fly at night as a result.

AFAIK the only external light that does not have a TSO is the landing light.

Interesting distinction.  So if you look in Section II - Limitations of the AFM, you are required to have 3 nav lights and 3 strobe lights for night VFR and IFR.  Nothing for day VFR or IFR.

This also answers my question above above the 'rotating beacon' or strobe, on the belly, if it's the 4th 'strobe' it is redundant.

Aerodon

 

[OSUAV8TER]

9 hours ago, Aerodon said:

Hi James,

I'm not disagreeing with you, my Mooney came with forward facing recognition lights (optional), wingtip and rudder strobes, wingtip red and green, and wingtip aft white.  The optional forward facing recognition lights have been removed, and the strobes have been replaced with TSO'd equipment.  The Nav lights have been replaced with LEDS on the wingtip and rudder.

The plane never had a belly or fin red strobe and I'd like to install one.  Not for in-flight anti collision but I like have a permanently on one to show people on the ground that the plane is 'live' and to show me that I have forgotten to turn the master off.  Not that I have done it in many years, but I am in the habit of always looking back at the plane before I walk away from it to check for tiedowns, loose cover straps, forgotten luggage and 'master off'.

I like the Aveo streamlined version, they have a much more expensive TSO's version.  I just don't like the shape of the Whelen unit, and given that I don't have to give any consideration to pre-existing mounts or holes, I have a choice.

Aerodon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

With a new install you have a lot of different options available but I still think you should stick with a TSO certified beacon light. I have a beacon on my Bonanza for all the reasons you cited plus more. Without a beacon you may be inclined to run the strobe light system all of the time eliminating flexibility where you may want to turn it off like on taxi or in the clouds at night. On the Whelen side you could flush mount an Orion 360 LED beacon light (can be all red, split red and white, or all white). I have a beacon on the top of my fuselage and will add a split red/white beacon to the belly of my Bonanza at annual. 

[jaylw314]

6 hours ago, OSUAV8TER said:

With a new install you have a lot of different options available but I still think you should stick with a TSO certified beacon light. I have a beacon on my Bonanza for all the reasons you cited plus more. Without a beacon you may be inclined to run the strobe light system all of the time eliminating flexibility where you may want to turn it off like on taxi or in the clouds at night. On the Whelen side you could flush mount an Orion 360 LED beacon light (can be all red, split red and white, or all white). I have a beacon on the top of my fuselage and will add a split red/white beacon to the belly of my Bonanza at annual. 

IIRC, you are ALWAYS allowed to turn off your anticollision lights for visibility or if there is a safety of flight issue, so in that regards it wouldn't be crucial to have two separate systems (somebody correct me if I'm wrong?).

 

11 hours ago, Aerodon said:

Interesting distinction.  So if you look in Section II - Limitations of the AFM, you are required to have 3 nav lights and 3 strobe lights for night VFR and IFR.  Nothing for day VFR or IFR.

This also answers my question above above the 'rotating beacon' or strobe, on the belly, if it's the 4th 'strobe' it is redundant.

Aerodon

FWIW, there's no such lighting limitation laid out in my M20J POH, and the default rules don't specify any specific number of lights.  Which plane requires that?

[rbp]

91.205(b)(11)

(b) Visual-flight rules (day). For VFR flight during the day, the following instruments and equipment are required:

(11) For small civil airplanes certificated after March 11, 1996, in accordance with part 23 of this chapter, an approved aviation red or aviation white anticollision light system. In the event of failure of any light of the anticollision light system, operation of the aircraft may continue to a location where repairs or replacement can be made.

[rbp]

(c) Visual flight rules (night). For VFR flight at night, the following instruments and equipment are required:

(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section.

(2) Approved position lights.

(3) An approved aviation red or aviation white anticollision light system on all U.S.-registered civil aircraft. Anticollision light systems initially installed after August 11, 1971, on aircraft for which a type certificate was issued or applied for before August 11, 1971, must at least meet the anticollision light standards of part 23, 25, 27, or 29 of this chapter, as applicable, that were in effect on August 10, 1971, except that the color may be either aviation red or aviation white. In the event of failure of any light of the anticollision light system, operations with the aircraft may be continued to a stop where repairs or replacement can be made.

(4) If the aircraft is operated for hire, one electric landing light.

(5) An adequate source of electrical energy for all installed electrical and radio equipment.

(6) One spare set of fuses, or three spare fuses of each kind required, that are accessible to the pilot in flight.

[Aerodon]

5 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

IIRC, you are ALWAYS allowed to turn off your anticollision lights for visibility or if there is a safety of flight issue, so in that regards it wouldn't be crucial to have two separate systems (somebody correct me if I'm wrong?).

 

FWIW, there's no such lighting limitation laid out in my M20J POH, and the default rules don't specify any specific number of lights.  Which plane requires that?

A lot of commercial aircraft have 2 complete sets of lighting, because they cannot dispatch an airplane at night with an inoperative wingtip light (or anything else on the minimum equipment list).  

If you look in the limitations section of your M20J (see attached page), you will see the reference to 3 strobe lights and 3 nav lights. (one set of each).

 

Aerodon

 

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by Aerodon
Poorly worded

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, Aerodon said:

A lot of commercial aircraft have 2 sets of lighting, because they cannot dispatch an airplane at night with an inoperative wingtip light (or anything else on the minimum equipment list).  

Yours does too, see attached page from an M20J manual.

Interesting, mine does not.  That one's dated 1996, so it must have been afterwards.

[Aerodon]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

Interesting, mine does not.  That one's dated 1996, so it must have been afterwards.

My post was poorly worded, airlines have two sets of lights, your plane should have one set of nav and one set of strobes, each set having three bulbs.

You are correct, the earlier M20J AFM has a much more generic Day/Night/VFR/IFR Limitations page.  

I believe the 'generic requirements' are posted already in this thread.

 

Aerodon

 

 

[carusoam]

From the late 90s Ovation POH…

Very similar three bulb requirements.

Oddly, with the two white rear facing wing tip lights…. We have four position lights… 
 

-a-