Make and Model for Insurance purposes

[GMBrown]

I wanted the opinion of the group re: the definition of "make and model" and how it applies to the Mooney aircraft.  The "make" would be Mooney, but does "model" mean M20?  Or M20C, M20F...  Is M20G =M20C?  Or is each Mooney a separate model?  Ie. 10 hours in make and model time requirements in the insurance policy means 10 hours in each Mooney variant.  I am getting different opinions.  Any help would be appreciated.

 

[toto]

Sounds like a question for Parker. I would presume that MM is the more specific designator (J vs K or whatever), but that seems pretty silly. If you have 1000 hours in an F and you buy a J, I can’t imagine an insurance company pushing minimum solo hours on you. 
 

@Parker_Woodruff

[LANCECASPER]

@Parker_Woodruff is the expert on this.

It's been my experience that make and model means just that, Mooney and specific model (Example: How much time do you have in the exact model you're applying to insure?) This makes sense since M20 would be way too broad. A person coming from an M20C would need some transition time before being approved in an M20R.

If you have a reasonable underwriter,  if the models are close enough, I would hope they would consider that (Example: Long body time for another long body Mooney.)

 

Edit: @toto We both suggested Parker within a couple minutes of each other. Great minds think alike . .  but what does that have to do with us . . lol?

[kerry]

I currently have a A model.  My dad had a C model with hundreds of hours when I was a kid.  When trying to add my dad to the A model policy the insurance company required 10 hours in make and model.  They wouldn't execpt C model hours.  

[GMBrown]

Thanks.  That's helpful.  I have 400 hours in the C and K but Someone wants to go up in a G for a prebuy flight, and I guess I'll have to disappoint them.  No time in the G.

[Culver LFA]

I am interested in Parker’s feedback on this topic as well.

Ferrying Mooneys around I have submitted my flight experience to several agents and there seems to be different interpretations.  
For example, most seem to be more broad and consider make/model to be Mooney and type ‘M20P’ and occasionally some consider it to be Mooney M20 and a specific model letter (C, G, E, F, J, etc).  But I haven’t been turned down by a company yet, lately they are more interested in collecting additional money for a waiver of subrogation.

[Vance Harral]

Parker is the expert, but in my experience as a CFI, there is no universal answer for this - it depends on the particular insurance company and the particular time you ask them.

Working with clients for checkouts, I've had one company tell me the M20J and everything prior to it are equivalent, and another insist each of M20/M20A/M20B/M20C/M20D/M20E/M20F/M20G/M20J are all different.  Similarly, some insurers group all turbocharged Mooneys together, others treat M20K/M20M/M20R/M20S/M20TN as unique animals.  Any given insurer may change their mind on this from year to year.

Bottom line, you have to call and ask.

[PilotX]

I asked about make and model regarding the open pilot portion of my insurance. They said “just Mooney” as they guy I was asking about had 100 hours in a K but no Bravo time. That was my carrier. 

[adverseyaw]

1 hour ago, Vance Harral said:

Parker is the expert, but in my experience as a CFI, there is no universal answer for this - it depends on the particular insurance company and the particular time you ask them.

Working with clients for checkouts, I've had one company tell me the M20J and everything prior to it are equivalent, and another insist each of M20/M20A/M20B/M20C/M20D/M20E/M20F/M20G/M20J are all different.  Similarly, some insurers group all turbocharged Mooneys together, others treat M20K/M20M/M20R/M20S/M20TN as unique animals.  Any given insurer may change their mind on this from year to year.

Bottom line, you have to call and ask.

^-- this is the correct answer.

Outside the realm of insurance. the FAA has two notable documents that touch on make and model.

• 14 CFR 1.1 definition for "type" implies that "basic model" would be M20.
• 8700.17 clearly defines "model" to be M20, with "series" to be e.g. M20C.

Separately, I've observed that ATC-reporting through flightradar24 and flightaware report M20P and M20T (piston and turbo, respectively). I haven't seen any reference to this methodology in FAA docs.

Edited November 25, 2021 by adverseyaw

[PT20J]

I would provide time in each M20 variant. Then the insurance company would have the most complete information from which to make a determination.

[MikeOH]

In my case, I had a bunch of time in an M20B when I bought my F; insurance was perfectly happy with counting my M20B experience.  Picked up the plane from pre-buy after close and happily flew home.

As others have said, you need to ask.

[toto]

32 minutes ago, adverseyaw said:

Separately, I've observed that ATC-reporting through flightradar24 and flightaware report M20P and M20T (piston and turbo, respectively). I haven't seen any reference to this methodology in FAA docs.

M20P and T are the official type designators. 
 

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/2019-10-10_Order_JO_7360.1E_Aircraft_Type_Designators_FINAL.pdf

 

 

[Utah20Gflyer]

When I bought my G model I asked the insurance company (Avemco) if I could count previous C and J time to my 10 hours transition and they said no, it had to be in my specific airplane.  I didn't drill down on it but it sounded like even time in another G wouldn't count.  They wanted 10 hours dual in my plane.  I am fairly low time which may have been a factor.  

[Parker_Woodruff]

20 hours ago, GMBrown said:

I wanted the opinion of the group re: the definition of "make and model" and how it applies to the Mooney aircraft.  The "make" would be Mooney, but does "model" mean M20?  Or M20C, M20F...  Is M20G =M20C?  Or is each Mooney a separate model?  Ie. 10 hours in make and model time requirements in the insurance policy means 10 hours in each Mooney variant.  I am getting different opinions.  Any help would be appreciated.

 

It's how the aircraft is described on the declarations page, unless the open pilot warranty or pilot warranty describes otherwise.  Most carriers specifically list the suffix of the particular M20.  If this puts you in a bind, most underwriters will listen to valid reasoning from a broker.  For example, they'd make a file note to substitute M20D RG conversion hours for M20C.

[Parker_Woodruff]

18 hours ago, toto said:

M20P and T are the official type designators. 
 

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/2019-10-10_Order_JO_7360.1E_Aircraft_Type_Designators_FINAL.pdf

 

 

This is for ATC purposes, but doesn't describe the true model of the aircraft.

[Parker_Woodruff]

20 hours ago, toto said:

 If you have 1000 hours in an F and you buy a J, I can’t imagine an insurance company pushing minimum solo hours on you. 
 

@Parker_Woodruff

Exactly.  It's a simple email to the underwriteryour broker can make.  "Hey my client has a 1000 M20F hours and he's buying an M20J.  The J flies 5 knots faster but they've both go a Lycoming IO-360 and behave the same in flight."  I've never had a problem getting something like that signed off.

[201er]

12 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Exactly.  It's a simple email to the underwriteryour broker can make.  "Hey my client has a 1000 M20F hours and he's buying an M20J.  The J flies 5 knots faster but they've both go a Lycoming IO-360 and behave the same in flight."  I've never had a problem getting something like that signed off.

What about going from a J to a K? Same thing with a turbocharger?

[Parker_Woodruff]

3 minutes ago, 201er said:

What about going from a J to a K? Same thing with a turbocharger?

they're going to want transition training for that, but you could probably get the required training time lowered if it was too high.

[201er]

3 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

they're going to want transition training for that, but you could probably get the required training time lowered if it was too high.

Let me put it another way. Does having 1000+ hours Mooney time in a C, E, J, etc help you continue getting a better rate when you step up some letters or are you considered a 0 time pilot in make/model!

[Jerry 5TJ]

As a CFI providing transition training in Mooney airplanes I’ve encountered several interpretations of the “make and model” clauses.  

Some insurers / brokers differentiate the series strictly and require me, for example, to have “at least X hours in a M20E” and don’t accept any other alphabetic versions.  

Other underwriters have accepted the argument that my 1,700 in various Mooneys is good enough for them to accept me for most M20 models.  

[MooneyMitch]

I’m my 35 years of ownership/flying various Mooneys (C, E, F, R) with the exception of my last policy renewal, total M20 time was accepted. 

 

[toto]

1 hour ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

This is for ATC purposes, but doesn't describe the true model of the aircraft.

Yep. I was just following up on the question about whether it was an informal Flightradar24 thing or a formal FAA thing. 

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, 201er said:

What about going from a J to a K? Same thing with a turbocharger?

For one thing if the pilot doesn’t have a high performance endorsement they’ll need that. (J has 200 hp; K has 210; Encore K has 220)

Although technically it’s not needed on a 231 since it’s only certified to FL240, high altitude training should be a requirement. The 252 is certified to FL280 though. I bought a 231 back in 1993 and flew it away after they handed me the keys. Within the first week I was making flights at FL230/240. No backup oxygen, no pulse O2, no clue. Thankfully soon after that I got some additional training, although it wasn’t required back then.

[Parker_Woodruff]

5 hours ago, 201er said:

Let me put it another way. Does having 1000+ hours Mooney time in a C, E, J, etc help you continue getting a better rate when you step up some letters or are you considered a 0 time pilot in make/model!

Generally 0 time, but make/model time doesn't normally matter that much for the rate anyway.

[201er]

31 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Generally 0 time, but make/model time doesn't normally matter that much for the rate anyway.

Then why do they ask about make/model time?

What type of experience hours makes a big impact on insurance rate for Mooney pilots?

PS Your website isn't loading.