Opinion on removing vacuum system after two G5 installation

[madreg98]

Installing two G5's in M20J.  Partner wants to keep original gyro for backup while I want to clean up panel and increase usable weight by removing vacuum system.  He also wants to keep old ADF for am radio.  Opinions??  Plane has 430W.  We also use ipads with Stratux for secondary panel.

[HIghpockets]

When my two G5s were  installed I had the vacuum system removed. No regrets. I do have an electric AI as a backup but a triple redundancy given the batteries in the G5. BTW I had my ADF removed years ago. I fly with a 430W and Foreflight on an iPad.

[DCarlton]

I would dump the ADF and it's antennas but clean up and keep the vacuum system.  I'm planning to install one G5 and keep a limited vacuum capability (but I know this is not majority thinking).  

[Ragsf15e]

If he’s worried about redundancy, maybe put an av30 in the adi hole.  You’d have 3 ADI still, different types and battery backup but could still remove the vacuum.

Remove adf and teach him how to put music and podcasts on his phone or buy him xm radio in the airplane.

[kris_adams]

Hey Madreg, what type of flying are you doing?  If I was flying in a lot of muck and down to minimums then I might want something else as well.  If mainly a sunny day flyer with occasionally popping up through a cloud layer...I'd probably be fine with the 2 G5s.  Don't see how it could be worse than a single AI.  AV30 might be a less expensive option for a backup.  (yes I have removed my vacuum system).

[hammdo]

3 hours ago, HIghpockets said:

When my two G5s were  installed I had the vacuum system removed. No regrets. I do have an electric AI as a backup but a triple redundancy given the batteries in the G5. BTW I had my ADF removed years ago. I fly with a 430W and Foreflight on an iPad.

Ditto. Dual G5s, no vacuum.  I kept my KX 155 and KI 209  so with GNC355, I'm covered - iPad is backup for emergencies with the Stratus...

-Don

[EricJ]

I have two G5s and deleted the vacuum system when I put the second G5 in.   No regrets at all, and it offers more redundancy than the airplane had with vacuum instruments.   Deleting the vac system frees up a lot of space behind the panel as well as at the back of the engine.   It's much easier to get at things with all of that gone, so maintenance is easier from that perspective.

If you have a music input for your audio panel, get a little AM/FM/whatever receiver and ditch the boat anchor ADF receiver and its draggy antennas.      If you don't have a music input for your audio panel, that should be a priority. 

 

[Ragsf15e]

I also have dual G5s with vacuum removed.  I feel it’s really more redundant than with vacuum because I have 2 ADIs (both G5s) and the original T&B.  Also have an ipad and adhrs in the GTX345 although no battery on that.

[201Steve]

Dual G5’s here. Kept the vacuum AI. Didn’t make sense to remove a perfectly good system. If it fails? Idk, I might yank it. Bob Gary had a good thread on this a few months ago. I have seen my G5 AI get “stuck” in about a 4-5 degree bank error while straight and level. Never happened again. But, I personally have not had any instances when I thought, “dang, I wish that thing wasn’t there anymore”. 

[eman1200]

Doesn’t sound like a very compromising partner. Seems to want everything his way.

[Mooney Dog]

10 hours ago, madreg98 said:

wants to keep old ADF for am radio

Just get some Bose A20s and a good music playlist on your phone! 

[OR75]

Anyone needs an ADF ? KR-85 …. With antenna and all connectors …. Free , just pay shipping .  Before I trash it  
 

Edited November 24, 2021 by OR75

[201Steve]

Anyone who prefers to listen to AM Radio in 2021 needs to be dealt with.

[Ragsf15e]

16 minutes ago, 201Steve said:

Anyone who prefers to listen to AM Radio in 2021 needs to be dealt with.

Although I have fond memories of listening to John Denver singing Rocky Mtn High as my dad and I flew a -172 over the Rockies in about 1982.  We had to turn it way up to hear without headsets.  Also, I think he was trying to use the radio station to figure out WTF we were!

[KB4]

It’s the fear of losing what is familiar.  Deal with that and you will get your way. The 2d G5, your IS the backup AI, and it flips on automatically if you lose the AI on top. Battery 4hrs as you know. Get him on a home sim with dual G5’s.  My guess is he will soon realize the Hub and spoke scan is hugely simplified with G5 or any glass and the triple redundancy is unnecessary.  Weight, should shed 20-29 lbs AND eliminate a maintenance item(s)forever.  (Old AI and vac)

If keeping his AM will make him happy enough dump vac then go that route. But I would promise to download his favorite talk shows or oldies on an old iPhone stream it to him and dump the ADF. 

[LANCECASPER]

On 11/23/2021 at 11:44 AM, madreg98 said:

Installing two G5's in M20J.  Partner wants to keep original gyro for backup while I want to clean up panel and increase usable weight by removing vacuum system.  He also wants to keep old ADF for am radio.  Opinions??  Plane has 430W.  We also use ipads with Stratux for secondary panel.

While most of us agree with what you're saying - that's not the point. You knew that we would before you posted.

If you want the partnership to last, communicate with him . . .and be willing to give and take. Even if you are polar opposites you can make it work if you talk it out and respect each other's reasons. Did you both put in 50% and buy it at the same time, or did one of you buy in on the other's airplane? That can be difficult if the original owner feels the other partner is trying to change everything, yet he feels it's good enough.

I'm going to guess that the G5's were your idea. Nice upgrade. If he wants to keep the vacuum and the adf, in the grand scheme, you got your G5's.

[OR75]

Keeping an ADF for AM does not make a lot of sense and not worth the weight 

ADF for navigation does not make any sense unless you are planning a transatlantic or northern Canada trip 

not sure there are many NDB or markers in approaches 

[madreg98]

Thanks for all the response.  Have convinced him to remove vacuum system but he is still digging his heels in on the ADF.  We agreed to table for future discussion.  BTW-the GFC500 is amazing.  Also got back about 25lbs of usable.  Which brings up another topic.  I have been told that the usable weight of a typical aircraft is not very accurate due to its starting from a factory calculated number and modified by various AP's along the way via calculation as well.  Is it worth going through the exercise of actually measuring weight and CG especially if you are trying to max passengers, baggage and distance?  I had my AP unoffically weigh my plane after the GFC500 upgrade and he told me to not do an official since the usable was less than the calculated.

[madreg98]

I apologize for bringing up the usable fuel topic.  After a search on the forum I see that there are a number of threads on the subject.  I will refer to those.

[carusoam]

Wait…. There’s more…

Some people aren’t comfortable enough with two identical AI resources…

The fear being they are running on the same software… what kills one, may kill the other one equally well….

Also… make sure they are truly independent of each other…. If they are relying on one ADHRs unit, a single failure kills both units….

 

We have one MSer who thought his installation was redundant, but the prior owner skipped an important expensive step….

When it comes to the value of an ADF…. It’s similar to a good luck charm….

For entertainment, I’ve listened to a live ball game… but AM radio has soo much noise as part of the broadcast…. I haven’t used mine in years….

With WAAS GPS, the rest of the options kind of pales…

 

Of course… when failures occur, and the only thing you have left is your ADF…. You’ll wish you had brought your smart phone/gps/Foreflight with you….   
 

If weight of the ADF or the drag of its antennas are a concern…. The most modern ADFs don’t weigh enough or have enough drag to annoy a partner about…

 

I bet an open discussion with the partner about what is important to them and why, would prove interesting….

If you call your partner Dad… that would clear some things up… 

 

There is probably a thread about partnerships around here somewhere…

Don’t expect that there is a clear cut better way to do things… for everyone…

Very few people are going back to vacuum systems if they have a choice…

A TC is a really crappy back-up device… they don’t show the wear they have until you are in the bumps….

ADF stations on the ground are getting fewer and fewer…

All of this is more important if you fly in IMC… not so much if VFR only…

PP thoughts only, not a partnership expert…

Best regards,

-a-

 

[rbp]

I removed the vacuum system with the G3X/G5 install. 

And i’m going to have the shop reweigh the plane when its all done. They already have to defuel it to put in the new CIES senders. I’m guessing I will pick up 50+ pounds, which is 8 gallons of fuel and about 1/2 hour of cruise/100nm.

Now where’s that damn 130 gallon STC??? 

[carusoam]

55 minutes ago, rbp said:

Now where’s that damn 130 gallon STC??? 

Find somebody that is capable and a person José can work with….   A mechanic in the Miami area might be helpful…

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

On Thursday night my Aspen went dark screen, glad I have a vacuum back up, it’s still cheaper to run than most electronic AI’s.  Yesterday a friend with dual G-5’s and no vacuum system had his G-5 HSI die, so much for it being a back up AI.  None of these new systems are perfect.

As for gaining useful load, most of us are carrying the equivalent a few gallons of 100LL on our belly,  some full IFR reserves.

Clarence

 

[PT20J]

Mechanical gyros frequently give warning of impending failure by precessing excessively, and when they do fail, it’s pretty obvious in my limited experience.

AHRS can have more subtle failure modes. If you have two AIs and they disagree when you are IMC, it could be difficult to determine which is correct. All the jets seem to have a 3rd backup AI. So, when I installed my G3X/G5 and removed the vacuum system, I also installed a AV-20- S for a tie breaker. It’s cheap insurance.

Skip

[whiskytango]

I had the vacuum system removed when my G5s were installed.  I also had an electric backup vacuum source removed at the same time.  I got over 50 pounds back with all that stuff removed.  Like others, I am concerned about a failure that takes out both G5s so I have a Dynon D3 as my 3rd AI.   It is not hardwired to ships power and has its own (rechargeable through USB) battery.