Looking for honest feedback before purchase

[jmcanally]

Hello to all, I am very close to making an offer on a 1990 Mooney TLS Bravo 1100 TT and 225 since Major by Zepher.  I have spent the last 3 days reading and researching the Bravo to become more informed about the plane.  I have only owned 1 other plane in my life and it was a 1977 Straight tail Piper Lance.  I understand the fule burn and the useful load info regarding the Bravo, but one thing that is scaring me is the general maintance that I am reading about.  I read one article that the owner stated that he spends between $20,000 and $30,000 a year on his Bravo.  Is this even close to being true?  Would love to hear real world estimates for maintance and annuals.  Thanks in advance forany and all help.

 

Jim

[carusoam]

Jim,

What is your typical mission going to be?

Private Pilot, 100 hours per year with some light IFR?

Or

500 hours per year commuting in all types of weather when duty calls?

Are you buying the Bravo for all out speed?

Or you like its capability to top some weather every now and then?

 

Much of what your annual budget for maintenance will be depends on how you use it and upgrade it.  Otherwise those numbers sound like Beech and Cirrus numbers, not so much Mooney numbers.

Of course, read up on pre-purchase inspections and first annuals.  They are very much related.  The bird you are looking at seems very much unused.  Unused is not often good for all it's parts and systems.

Best regards,

-a-

[GeorgePerry]

Personlly I'd never own a TLS bravo.  (They use twice the gas and can be a PITA...OMMV)  I think if you need a turbo get a nice 252 or Allegro.  If you don't need a turbo, get a late model 201, Eagle or Ovation.  To those ends I have never understood why the used market supports the Bravo with such high prices.  It doesn't offer too much over more efficient mooney models. 

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/Single+Engine+Piston/1990/Mooney/M20M+Bravo/1387197.html

And...I assume this is the plane you are looking at.  It's another thread, and a personal opinion, but I wouldn't buy a plane from Mooney Mart either.  I had some dealings with them a few years ago and was not impressed.  Also there are several threads with discussions from others who detail their bad experiences.  Again...OMMV, so please take with a grain of salt.

[Skywarrior]

In my experience, the maintenance has not been that bad. The Bravo is a speed merchant, though. If that is what you want, you can get it from a 231, a 252, a Bravo, an Ovation or an Acclaim.

You won't be able to get more than three adults in it, though, either because of space or weight. Your Lance had room (speaking charitably) for six people. Do you need to carry more than three people total?

Mine is a '91. I got it for $134K. Much above that, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

If you don't need the slight increase in baggage compartment room, you'd be just as well off in a 252 or a 231.

I was originally shopping for a 252, but a Bravo came onto the market heavily discounted due to previous damage, and I jumped on it. It's worked out great. But I was really, really lucky.

But don't get suckered into an overpriced 252, either. There's a guy at my field who's trying to sell his 252 Rocket for... $249K. Sheesh.

Chuck M.

[johnggreen]

Jim,

I spent most of my business career in twins.  After selling my construction buisness, I didn't see any need to go farther than 300 nm in light IFR so I bought a '98 Skylane.  Then my children started going to college in far off, expensive colleges and my daughter moved 800 miles away.  Ever tried to fly 800 miles in a Skylane with a headwind?

In 2004, I started looking for a faster airplane and flew the Cirrus, Columbia and the Ovation with the intent of buying a new airplane.  I had flown an Ovation demo they brought to my home base with mixed impressions.  About a month later, my wife and I were going to Key West in the Skylane and stopped by Premier's operation in Ft. Lauderdale to kick tires some more.  They had a 2000 Bravo trade in with 400 hours going through the shop to get it spiffied up for re-sale.  I flew an Ovation and then the Bravo.  The demo pilot and I took it up to 14,000' and I knew I had bought an airplane.

I have owned 32 airplanes in my flying career.  There is no perfect airplane and I'm not one to be silly enough to get goose bumps over brand loyalty.  Different airplanes have different strengths and weaknesses.  In my opinion, the best all-around airplane ever built is not a Mooney, nor is it the second best, but we won't go there.  What I will say is that for my present mission, regularly traveling 800 miles cross country with my wife, the Bravo delivers more all around capability at a reasonable cost than any airplane I can buy.

Now, on maintenance.  Anyone who tells you he is spending over $6,000/year on annuals (exclusive of wear items) on a Bravo is either trying to make an impression (to put it nicely) or getting his butt reamed badly.  For the first two (or three) annuals, I took the airplane to Premier.  I've been paying for airplane maintenance for a long time.  I paid Premier top dollar, but never over $8,000 if memory serves me correctly.  They did a competent job, but nothing that I could see that was special.  The 3rd or 4th annual (I can't recall) I took it to another Mooney Service Center.  They did nothing wrong, but again, I couldn't see anything special and the bill was perhaps slightly padded?  

After each annual at a MSC, I would have to take the airplane to my "old" mechanic to fix what the MSC had missed or sometimes (to be honest) screwed up.  That got old fast.  Finally, I asked my "old" mechanic if what he needed to do my maintenance and keep me happy.  He said he needed the service manuals and my patience.  He got both.

Since then, the maintenance on the Mooney has been damn near a joy.  We did have an issue with an oil leak on one cylinder; a peculiar leak that came as a result of the TLS oil cooling system unique to the Bravo.  John Jewel Aircraft rebuilt the cylinder for $1,200 and the problem was solved.

I am very pro-active with maintenance and the replacement of time-life items.  On the Bravo, you need to rebuild the mags about every 300 hours.  No big deal, but they are prone to fail at 500 hours.  Yes, I had a leaking tank.  My "old" mechanic had lots of experience with Westwind jets that seem to share the issue, he fixed that as well for I think $900.  (not a complete reseal).

The only other thing of note is that we found a cracked engine mount.  Again, no big deal.

The Bravo has been 100% reliable.  My annuals now average about $3,000 not including the replacement of wear items.  I just went over 1000 hours and it runs as smooth as a turbine burning maybe two quarts between changes.  My wife loved the Skylane and didn't want me to buy the Bravo.  As she said, the Skylane is so cheap to operate that you hardly notice the costs (she handles all accounting for our businesses).  She is sitting here in the den.  I just asked her how much the last annual cost and she said, "I don't remember, but it must not have been much or I would remember."  I would add at the last annual we rebuilt both mags and replaced the vacuum pump!!!!

Someone suggested one of the other turbo Mooneys.  Don't mean to offend, but I would go back to the Skylane first and fight head winds.  The shorter bodied models are just simply too small to be practical.  Boy, I know that's going to draw some ire.  Sorry fellows, that's my opinion.

Truthfully, our needs are changing again and we are looking at going to a large twin.  It's amazing how much money I will have to spend in a twin to get the speed and capability of the Bravo.  This airplane will cruise 175 knots on 13 gph at 14,000' or as fast as 220 at 25,000'.  Yes, it will do it, but I'm simply not in that big of a rush.  At the 175 @14m, I can fly 800nm with IFR reserves,  have dual batteries, dual vacuum, dual alternators, built in oxygen, and am certified for known icing.  

As far as anyone claiming that the Bravo is a maintenance hog or unreliable,  what system is on the Mooney that is "unusual" or demanding of special attention that is not on almost any other airplane?  It's just that the Bravo has all the systems (see above) The only unique thing is the oil cooling, but my experience seems to be very unusual and was easily fixed.

I expect my annuals to go up at this point simply because I will demand more and more inspections as the airframe and engine age.  That is assuming that I keep the airplane.

In closing, and I must close as I'm taking my co-pilot out to supper, I can say that overall, after owning 32 airplanes, I have never been more satisfied with the way an airplane fulfilled its mission than I have with the Bravo.  If you mission is less than 300 miles in light IFR, buy the world's best airplane, the Skylane, but if your mission is closer to mine, the Bravo is your machine.

I do recommend proper training and buying a good airplane.  You don't want to have "catch up" maintenance on the Bravo or any other airplane for that matter.

I will be happy to answer any question you have to the best of my ability and you can call me if you would like on my cell at 662-307-0496.

Jgreen

 

[John Pleisse]

Quote: jmcanally

  I read one article that the owner stated that he spends between $20,000 and $30,000 a year on his Bravo.  Is this even close to being true? 

 

Jim

[FoxMike]

Jim,

I have owned my TLS since 2003.  Since it was almost new I spent alot of time fixing stuff that should have been fixed under warranty but the 1st owner had no clue.  After that the maintenance requirement dropped off significantly.  Be sure that the aircraft is NOT subject SB 569A.  The TLS is slightly larger than the 231/252 but is a bit more awarkard on landing.  I have owned two E models and traveled a lot in 231's.  I have known ice and find that the airplane flies lots of weather without concern.  I also owned a T-210.  The T210 was better in many ways but had lots of maintenance issues.  I have been down to Latin America several times in the TLS with 3 on board.  Be sure your mission fits into the  TLS and you  are happy with the handling before you buy. Changing airplanes is expensive.  BTW I use 70% power in cruise never more and am currently insntalling a new crank as a result of SB 569.  Top end of cylinders were in good shape.  Good luck.

Walt 

[blacknchrome]

I'll echo just about everything that John said. Great post.

Mine is a '98, and it's a great, great machine.  I too, really like the extra size over the K models.  It's a beautiful,, solid, capable airplane.  Annuals aren't cheap, but they shouldn't average anywhere near the numbers you were throwing out.  An airplane with this many systems, duals, and capabilities is going to have things to maintain and potentially go wrong.  However, when kept up properly, it is not all that expensive and very reliable. 

[gjkirsch]

Jim

I have owned two 231's and am on my second Bravo.  I am a nit picker and fix everything.  Get the best prebuy you can from an independent and experienced service center.  I moved up to the Bravo to get TKS after nearly scaring myself to death in icing.  You will spend money on any used plane in the first year if you want every defect resolved.  After that, the biggest differences I saw were fuel burn (13 to 19 GPH) and exhaust systems.  The Bravo appears to be tougher on the exhaust system.  My annuals have ranged from $2400 to $12,000 (7,000 was the exhaust system). 

I would have taken the Ovation over the Bravo but could not find one at a reasonable price with TKS.  A highly modified Eagle just came on the market with TKS that may be worth a look.  They are faster down low and use less fuel.  I like the longer and newer airframes and avionics of the Ovations and Bravo's over the 231's. 

http://www.aso.com/listings/spec/ViewAd.aspx?utm_source=Alerts&id=138226

Bottom line, I am a happy Mooney Owner!

Gordon

N32CG

 

[jmcanally]

Thanks to everyone for responding.  The plane that I am looking at is in fact the link that George posted in the 3rd thread.  The seller is Mooney Mart and they are saying the plane has been flown around 200 hours over the last 2 1/2 years.  Of course I know they are the seller, but they are willing to do the annual and pay for everything the annual turns up.  They are that confident of the airplane and the shape it's in.  I still would send it out to for a thorough prebuy as well. 

As far as the planes use, I have a daughter in college in Kentucky.  I currently live in Georgia, but am moving to Dallas and the thought of being a 15 hour drive from our daughter is not setting well with my wife and I.  So basically, it would be my wife and I most of the time and the three of us some of the time. 

I can handle 3K annuals and every now and then 6-7K annuals, but just don’t want to buy and airplane that averages 6-12K maintenance per year.

Once again, thanks for all the help.  Also, does anyone know anything about the plane I am looking at?  Again, it’s in the thread from George.  Thanks again.

Jim 

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

Quote: jmcanally

Thanks to everyone for responding.  The plane that I am looking at is in fact the link that George posted in the 3rd thread.  The seller is Mooney Mart and they are saying the plane has been flown around 200 hours over the last 2 1/2 years.  Of course I know they are the seller, but they are willing to do the annual and pay for everything the annual turns up.  They are that confident of the airplane and the shape it's in.  I still would send it out to for a thorough prebuy as well. 

As far as the planes use, I have a daughter in college in Kentucky.  I currently live in Georgia, but am moving to Dallas and the thought of being a 15 hour drive from our daughter is not setting well with my wife and I.  So basically, it would be my wife and I most of the time and the three of us some of the time. 

I can handle 3K annuals and every now and then 6-7K annuals, but just don’t want to buy and airplane that averages 6-12K maintenance per year.

Once again, thanks for all the help.  Also, does anyone know anything about the plane I am looking at?  Again, it’s in the thread from George.  Thanks again.

Jim 

[jmcanally]

Do you have any contact information for Don Maxwell?  Thanks in advance

[jetdriven]

DEFINATELY use someone besides Mooney Mart for the prebuy

http://www.donmaxwell.com/contactus/contact_us.htm

[johnggreen]

Jim,

I'm going to address two issues but in different posts.

First.

I do not know the airplane of which you speak, but I know the owner of Mooney Mart quite well.  Coy Jacobs is a "strong" personality, but my dealings with him have been honorable.  What I mostly like about him is that he's the kind of guy that you can tell him he's full of ##@@** and he will probably laugh and agree.  People with strong personalities make friends and enemies; I should know.  Up until a couple of years ago there were two Mooney oriented magazines; MAPA and the Mooney Pilot.  It caused a lot of competition and resulting ill feelings.  I think that's whats called human nature.  Point being, someone who proably doesn't even know Coy will proably give you a personal message to beware.

In my opinion, Coy will do what he says he will do.  Like anyone else, including me, when you have a business deal you should have a good understanding and there is no substitute for a written understanding.  The good thing is that, in my opinion, he has forgotten more about the mechanics of a Mooney than most folks will ever know.

Though I don't know, this is likely a brokered airplane which is actually a positive.  If the owner wants to sell, a third party does the work for which they get paid, and you get a good airplane.  My "brokered" guess is just that in this market, few dealers are buying at any price.  If you get a good purchase contract that includes an annual and that everything will be fixed, I think you should be able to move ahead comfortably.

In my next post, I'll address a couple of other issues that you raised.

Jgreen

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

Quote: GeorgePerry

...To those ends I have never understood why the used market supports the Bravo with such high prices. 

Is the market really supporting these prices?  A multitude of the Bravo's (and Ovations for that matter) being advertised have been sitting on the market for what I would consider to be an extended amount of time...some have been advertised for 3 years or more. I guess these people are not serious about selling.  For example, I like the Mooney’s Premier in Fort Lauderdale has advertised but every time I look at one of their long bodies I seem to think their prices are about 40K more then I would be willing to pay for that particular plane. Doesn't make sense to me.  If I were in the airplane sales business I would want to market an aircraft at a price point which would ensure to a reasonable degree of certainty the aircraft would sell within 90 days.  The market is supposed to dictate prices not the brokers.

[gregwatts]

I do not know Don Maxwell, but I do agree with not using Coy Jacobs to do the annual or pre-buy. I, personally would pass on an airplane that he is involved with, but that is me.

[johnggreen]

Jim,

While I was writing the last post, some others came up worthy of comment.

"Take it to Don Maxwell"  That's Don Maxwell of Texas?

Nobody in Florida knows crap about a Mooney?

Put enough conditions on your purchase and you'll be shown the door.

Personally, I have a Bravo and not meaning to be a smart aleck, I can afford it.  I spend all the money "reasonably" necessary to keep it in top condition, and to the best of my knowledge there is nothing wrong with the airplane.  If it were for sale and someone told me the pre-requisite to purchase was that I had to haul it 1,500 miles to a 3rd party and leave a blank check, I'd tell him to kiss my #####.

Premier aircraft is 45 minutes away from Mooney Mart.  They are fully competent to do anything including a complete pre-buy on the aircraft.  If it were me, I'd take it to Premier, let them get a squawk list, negotiate those items into the price and have the work done myself.

Jgreen

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

Quote: johnggreen

Jim,

While I was writing the last post, some others came up worthy of comment.

"Take it to Don Maxwell"  That's Don Maxwell of Texas?

Nobody in Florida knows crap about a Mooney?

Put enough conditions on your purchase and you'll be shown the door.

Personally, I have a Bravo and not meaning to be a smart aleck, I can afford it.  I spend all the money "reasonably" necessary to keep it in top condition, and to the best of my knowledge there is nothing wrong with the airplane.  If it were for sale and someone told me the pre-requisite to purchase was that I had to haul it 1,500 miles to a 3rd party and leave a blank check, I'd tell him to kiss my #####.

Premier aircraft is 45 minutes away from Mooney Mart.  They are fully competent to do anything including a complete pre-buy on the aircraft.  If it were me, I'd take it to Premier, let them get a squawk list, negotiate those items into the price and have the work done myself.

Jgreen

I and several others fly our planes to TX every year for its annual inspection.  There is a reason for that. The MSC's with the best reputation seem to be in TX or even further west.  If I was selling a plane and you wanted to pay for the gas and other associated expenses required to get it to the shop of your choice for inspection AND I was confident in my aircraft it would not matter to me.  As a matter of fact if it meant sealing the deal in this economy I would actually welcome it. If someone shows you the door for wanting to get an annual/pre-purchase inspection at a shop of your choice then I would suggest you use that door as quickly as possible. 

[johnggreen]

Jim,

When you buy a $200,000 used Bravo, you are really buying a $550,000 Acclaim as far as maintenance.  I said that annuals were running me less than $4,000 (I didn't say exactly) not including wear items.  If I had to put a figure for long term maintenance exclusive of engine overhaul, I would have to say 8,000 to 10,000 thousand.  That would be true of an Ovation, A-36, Cirrus, or any other high performance single.

If that gives you pause, then don't buy an airplane with this many systems.  You aren't going to enjoy any airplane if you feel your pocket book bite you everytime you crank the engine.

My children also went off to schools a long way from home.  Two are still there in NYU and U of VA.  My daughter lives in DC, and another practices law in Asheville NC.  All 400-700 nm away.

Dallas to Louisville is over 600 miles.  Buy a Skylane.  Roomy, safe, comfortable, bulletproof, and no surprises.  No wind and you'll be there in 4.5 hours.  In a Bravo/Ovation 3.5.  Now, if you have the personal competency to take advantage of FIKI, and high altitude, the Bravo can do something for you.  Otherwise, you may need the money for tuition????  Don't feel bad, we've all been there.

Jgreen

[jetdriven]

How can anyone recommend the seller or one of his on-field cronies do the pre buy?  Half the people that do that post on here 3 months later about needing an overhaul or a new spar.      Ask Abe how his went !

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

CAVEAT EMPTOR

[johnggreen]

201 Flyer,

I have no issue with your choice of shops.  I just know that I tried two Mooney Service Centers and my local mechanic had to fix their omissions after each foray.

I have always had a problem with the idea that there is something special about Mooney maintenance.  Please someone tell me what system is on a Mooney that is not on other high performance airplanes?  A Continental engine?  A Lycoming engine?  Every fwf component is manufactured by  a 3rd party and common to Pipers, Mooneys, and Cessnas as well.

My personal experience tells me that someone or some group, perhaps Mooney, sold this bill of goods as marketing for the maintenance market for Mooneys that there is something intrinsically special about them.  I recently had a fuel tank leak.  I could have taken it to a MSC or Mooney shop, because that's so unusual right?  Best estimate to fix was $3,000.  My local mechanic cut his teeth on Westwind Jets that have wet wings.  He fixed it for $900, and guaranteed it.  I'm sure Mooneys are much more complicated than Westwinds, but they apparently do serve as a good learning platform

No offense, but it's just, as my father used to say, "something else to sell".  I bought my first airplane, a North American AT-6 in 1976.  Since then I've bought another 31 airplanes and sold 30; successfully.  The worst thing I ever missed was one bad cylinder on the notorious Continental O-346.  The only bad experience I had selling was of a F-33 Bonanza.  It had a total of 280 hours.  Let the guy talk me into taking it to Ohio for a pre-buy.  You'd have thought the wings were about to fall off.  I had to get a mechanic to put the airplane back together to bring it home.  The buyer left town, fortunately for him.  I would have killed the SOB.  Brought it home and traded it to a Bonanza dealer for a new A-36.  Funny, they couldn't find anything wrong with the airplane.

A few years ago a Mooney came in here with a failed engine.  Sat here for months for the engine to be removed, repaired, and replaced.  The guy just had to have it fixed by a Mooney shop.  I guess that was appropriate since the owner was a Mooney shop.

Jgreen

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

It appears as though you have established a relationship with a "local" mechanic you trust.  That's great; however, I've not yet been able to establish such a relationship w/ someone in FL. As such, I fly my Mooney to a mechanic in TX who ONLY works on Mooney’s. When they tell me the plane is good to go it makes me feel better about flying myself and my family all around.  I use the other MSC’s in FL for other stuff but like to fly to TX for the annual. It’s simply a personal choice... nothing more and nothing less.

[johnggreen]

Don't know about you fellows, but this is a pretty good way to fill a rainy Sunday morning.  I was going to go shoot approaches, but----------------

Got to comment on the following quotes though.

For my money, The Ovation and the Bravo are the only two airplanes made by Mooney that I would own.  Mooneys are tight, uncomfortable, quirky in their handling, have fragile landing gears, some really dime ass components (do-nut suspension), and leaking wings to name a few traits.  Not to mention their fatal accident rate is eye opening (Skylane vs J model in one 10 year period was, I believe 137%).    In short, they are mostly purchased because of price by people who can't afford better.

 

The Bravo is a very capable airplane.  Though still a Mooney, it has some semblance of room, turbocharging, dual everything, and will carry TKS without completely compromising climb and cruise performance.  Only the unknowing think that turbocharging is for speed; it's more for capability.  Any speed gain at the end of the year is negligible.

As for the quotes below, I have always noticed that we all, including me, think anything we can't afford is overpriced.  As for the Bravo market being dead, that simply is not supported by the facts.  The best, cleanest Bravos move well considering that we are in one of the worst aircraft "recessions" in history.  VREF, to which I subscribe, currently rates the Bravo market a B which is the same as the Skylane and the A-36, and one of the highest sale ratings of any airplane in today's market.  Put an airplane "with issues" on this market and it will never sell, even at a substantial discount.

OK, that's enough and I've irritated you fellows enough for today.

Jgreen

 

...To those ends I have never understood why the used market supports the Bravo with such high prices.  Is the market really supporting these prices?  A multitude of the Bravo's (and Ovations for that matter) being advertised have been sitting on the market for what I would consider to be an extended amount of time...some have been advertised for 3 years or more. I guess these people are not serious about selling.  For example, I like the Mooney’s Premier in Fort Lauderdale has advertised but every time I look at one of their long bodies I seem to think their prices are about 40K more then I would be willing to pay for that particular plane. Doesn't make sense to me.  If I were in the airplane sales business I would want to market an aircraft at a price point which would ensure to a reasonable degree of certainty the aircraft would sell within 90 days.  The market is supposed to dictate prices not the brokers.

[rob]

Would you share the contact information for this mechanic? A PM would be fine if you'd prefer...

Quote: johnggreen

My personal experience tells me that someone or some group, perhaps Mooney, sold this bill of goods as marketing for the maintenance market for Mooneys that there is something intrinsically special about them.  I recently had a fuel tank leak.  I could have taken it to a MSC or Mooney shop, because that's so unusual right?  Best estimate to fix was $3,000.  My local mechanic cut his teeth on Westwind Jets that have wet wings.  He fixed it for $900, and guaranteed it.